The first "I want it" listed in OPEN forum should seal the deal...

that way everyone knows the pen is already spoken for, the list of people waiting in line is public.. etc etc.. and the rest of us don't waste time with it.

If the ad is placed in open forum, there's absolutely no reason why the buyer's response should not be here as well. THat way we don't waste our time with the horse er.. nonsense of chasing pens which have already been sold.

Whatever negotiations can of course be made privately, but in fairness to all potential buyers, the list of "I want its" should be public, and available for all to see...

The way the system is now is ridiculous IMO... I've wasted too much time and effort sending PM's etc, on pens which have already been sold or are on hold when it would have bee SO EASY to see the "I want it" here in the forum so I don't waste my freakin' time.

This should be standard policy for this entire sales/trade/marketplace area.

Dave

But just because someone says "I want it", it doesn't mean the sale will instantly go through. A sale is a two-way thing, just because someone says they will buy it doesn't mean everything else will work out.

A better suggestion is just that the person selling the items should edit "on hold" or "sold" onto the sales post asap.

When I see PM Sent, I don't assume that it's a done deal. Buyers sometimes send a counteroffer or have a question or two about the pen. Also, making the sale dependent upon it being posted in a public forum is unworkable. Not every seller can sit and monitor FPN. It's much easier to be alerted to an email that arrives your mailbox. Most sellers post a Sold Pending Payment or Sold notice to alert potential buyers. If buyers do that diligently, I think that everyone will know when an item is off the market. It's not a perfect system, but I feel that it works pretty well.

Those grapes are most sour.

Although I can really see your point. I think that this goes along with the edit time restriction in the marketplace. the system is a bit of a kludge yes, although I will say, on most threads i've seen, people usually post things like "pm sent", or "message sent", etc, so that's sort of what you're asking for, innit?

In any case, this should probably be in Community Feedback.

I disagree... if someone says "I want it" and then doesn't buy it.. then they look like an idiot for backing out of the deal. I think there would be less of that nonsense this way. Sometimes people say "I want it" and then proceed to ask questions about it which should have been asked prior to the commitment. The public way is just good all the way around... again IMO...

The board doesn't allow for editing indefinitely so that's another drawback to the "edit" method.

Usually, the most simple solution is the easiest... and to me, the public posting is the most simple, obvious, and easy to deal with system possible. I guess some people prefer to remain anonymous through PM's , but I think that's rather absurd as well (again, IMO) because it causes others to chase after a pen which may already have been committed...

Anyway, I doubt the system will change but it should.

Dave

It also seems that a number of sellers have the items listed simultaneously on other forums; the "I want it" that "gets" the sale may not be someone active on FPN at the moment anyway.

Says you.

A person like me, who hoards pens, does not want everyone knowing that I buy everything. If I had to post my buys in the forum, I would have twice as many posts, people would get jealous that I buy every pen listed, and FPN as we know it would become pretty much useless.

That too.

It's really not as sour as it appears. Simply the current system doesn't make sense to me, so I offered a suggestion. johnro also makes some good points about..

Perhaps it should be in the community feedback area... moving it there will not hurt my feelings either.

Actually I've been first here with the PM system many more times than I've missed. But overall, it seems it could be better.

A "suggestion":

Hmmmmmm, now there's an aspect of this I hadn't considered.. I guess because this is the only FP board of which I am a member.. yeah, the concurrent listing thing is an issue that cannot be rectified with an open forum system.


LoL, jmkeuning, there's no law which states a suggestion must be stated in a politically correct manner. A good discussion about it is a good discussion.

The system is less then Ideal, it seems we can all agree on that, and could use a more dynamic system of editing and keeping posts updated. I think it has been mentioned before though that something like that might not be as easy as it sounds, needing edits to the base code of the board.

Also, nothing personaly meant with the grapes .

Dave, There really isn't any "system", as you state. People make their own rules. Personally, I list pens FS here and on PenTrace simultaneously, so postings on this forum wouldn't work. Each seller works his/her sales as the see fit. If you want to sell via board postings only, then you're free to do so. When a pen sells, I also typically post a "SOLD" note on the original thread.

I've had a sizable number of offers fall through when the buyers started re-examining their own situations. Some didn't read the descriptions enough and ask obvious condition questions after they've committed to a sale. I've had more than one buyer commit to buy a pen, I say it's sold in public, then retract his offer when his wife says he's over his pen budget. Your method of a public claim would have the pen sold in open forum without an agreement from the seller. I'm sure that this would result in more than one potential buyer retreating from an offer.

Remember too, some people don't want to advertise that they buy some pens in public.

As a seller, I like having more than one offer, as i can go down the line if the earlier ones back out. That's impossible to do if you allow public claims.

The "system" today is no more than a public bulletin board. If you want something more solid, then perhaps Ebay, Penbid, or Martini Auctions would better suit your needs. This board is pretty much the wild west. You get what you pay for.

Skip

I always wonder about those "PM Sent" and I don't particularly like it. Lets say I am listing a pen, and a buyer would like to know more about it before committing to buy. If the buyer places a "PM sent" on the board, it aggravates me because I am concerned that its scaring off other potential buyers that are prepared to commit (or at least ask questions).

I think the back-channel system works just fine.

That seems like a valid point (jmkeuning's objection)
Then could we "stake a claim" instead of a definite "I want it" and could this be anonymous? The seller's response would indicate that the pen is sold.
And although we need some fine tuning, I find FPN pretty impressive (thanks, folks!)

Skip, and others,

yeah, I must admit that after a little more thought inspired by other's input, the wild wild west non system isn't really as freakin' ridiculous as I first thought. Sometimes what seems obvious isn't actually the situation in practice or reality. Okay, I retract my prior ranting suggestion..

Anyway, at least now I get the overall situation a little better and it makes more sense.

Dave

p.s. ilubiano.. no personal offense taken in the least...

This post comes very close to a thought of mine over the last few days:
Can there be an established method of marking a pen SOLD on the original FS post?
Perhaps prefacing the original subject with it, eg:

SOLD: The Parker 51 (NOS, Mint, Perfect) you've been waiting for and missed again!

I've spent a great deal of time looking for specific models, reading details, multi-tiered replies, etc.
only to find that the pen was sold minutes after posting, a week before I found the FS post.

I think there's value to keeping the FS postings and attachments up to the degree the software can support them,
I've certainly learned a lot by reading about various brands and models in FS listings and replies.

Input, folks?

I believe you only have 24 hours to edit a post - which seems to be a change(?) - so other than adding a reply on the end, I don't technically think it can be done. The Admins certainly don't have the time to manage that

No hard feeling, it's only a pen game. Sometime I feel upset just because i don't get what I want.......... Nevertheless, what ever type or rules that are in print does not matters most, cos the seller had to decide who he like the items to be sold to Or rather "happy with" On other hand, The buyer at time have to be nice and fair to seller too..... Happy peennnning.

As a buyer & sometime seller, the PM system works very well for me.

Ditto, and what about emails and pens via pentrace too?

As a buyer, I have missed some pens, I really wanted I have waited for some for a few days and gotten negative, but I have managed to snag some pens that I wanted and these replies some almost within the next few hours..

As a seller, well, I check my email most often and when I get a PM from FPN, and I respond almost immediately when I can. but some dead threads I admit, even I have forgotten to edit the status so shoot me!

BANG!!! heh... really,I think very few people are so childish as to actually be upset of not getting a specific pen (god knows most of us already have more pens than any sane being could imagine). I really could care less about that as there will always be another. My gripe before which really cannot have a complete solution is the PM time wasted being sent on a sold pen (possibly causing the next one to be missed being occupied with the first) when it seems so obvious that doing it publicly would eliminate any confusion. However, that would create a different set of problematic circumstances.

Of course it's also a waste of the seller's time because I've yet to have a seller NOT respond to the PM with a polite "thank you but it is already sold"...

I still think some improvements to the system (or non system) could and should be made, including finding a technical solution for editing SOLD onto the topic without encumbering the admins on a continuous basis. Not a perfect solution, but if we take the wild west approach, I'll just hide behind the saloon, bushwhack everyone and steal the pens anyway...

I am a bit surprised that some people feel cautious/coy/whatever about others' knowing they've bought or made an offer for something.

I suppose some of you do have very valuable collections which might be targeted by other FPNers who know your home addresses, but it seems a very small...almost negligible.... risk.

Am I missing something?

And I think it is always nice to see a member who is gracious enough to say "I was wrong" (or words to that effect)..... I respect that

[If only our politicians felt able to do the same I might feel the same ]

I have not read this full thread, but totally agree with the above statement, some people are compulsive buyers, we know who they are, through time and dilligence to these threads. Their bargaining power would be greatly reduced if this knowledge was more easily available, and trading in pens is a two way street.

Pst, want to buy a pen

et

PM Sent.








No, not really, I just wanted to make it look like I was joining in...

I don't understand, why "MUST" the seller make his negotiations public knowledge? Why must the seller even be compelled to follow a standardised protocol process in customer selection? Sometimes you just get a bad feeling about a buyer and don't want to sell him/her the item. Since these are private sales, I think that it is entirely within the seller's right to chose the buyers not just on who says "I want it!" first, but also who seems most reliable, "normal", problem-free, etc.

From personal experience that is important. For a long time I never sold a pen on FPN (listed a bunch but never sold a one) with Pentrace being the bigger market so when I sold it went up on both boards. So you get a list of emails that you can compare time stamps and then say that a pen is sold.

Forcing a seller to update a listing or require that the open forum here trump all others by some draconian laws is going to cause more pens to be sold on Pentrace then here


And I hate to say it but the seller can sell their pens however they want it.

If they want payment in pobble beads then they can request it. If they want postcards and will go buy the postmark they can do it If they want a 8x10 color glossy of the buyer they can request it. Not that they will sell their pen in these ways but they can.

A transaction is two sided why not let the market take care of itself?

Kurt

There is one way to do this. Email the Admins and request that the post be edited. They can unlock a post and edit it then lock it again. That way the 24 hr editing remains in place and all of the posts can be modified- maybe they can be shuttled to the attic ( if it is one pen) at the same time so there is a subforum of pens that have been sold as a history


Kurt

It is such a relief to hear I'm not the only one who's been stipulating those conditions! I like to ask for CVs as well.


QM2

I've only got some fiddling small change and I can't find a third.

Kurt

I think buyers shoe size is extremely important (may be a British thing???)

et

You used to be able to edit your first posting, if you were the person who started the thread. But I just checked some of my thread starting posts (even from last week) and the "edit" button is gone. I can't edit the original post. Something changed... I do know we had a software upgrade. I wonder if this is a settable option?

In other forums I participate in, the first post can be edited either indefinitely or for at least several months. And so with a marketplace, the seller can update the title of the original post to say "SPF" (sales pending funds), "SOLD", etc. This works really well and there's no need for anyone to wander down to the last posting to see if the item sold. The "sold" posting wouldn't always be at the end anyway, because sometimes people post inquiries afterwards causing some dialog to continue for a while.

True it's a hassle, and that too about other forums being able to edit posts - some even allow deletes..

but for someone really wanting a pen, i think it will be an instinctive thing to read the whole thread or most of it anyway, at least those with a reasonable amount of posts...

I don't know, that's what I usually do.. but for 'hot' pens, they are snapped up in the minutes/hours and we will most definitely not have a problem with the lack of editing functions of the first post...

just my $0.02 (cus that's what I do do *lol)..

I am so childish. And I'm not kidding.

Seconded. There is at least one person on this board I would NOT sell to, and I'd rather not have to fight it out publicly.

Thirded. Sellers have a choice too.

I will only add my angle that this board is a piece of property, so to speak, with owners. They are the ones free to set the rules of their house. As much as there may be an upheaval over the system, ultimately it is the owners' decision.

As I see it, the current policy of the board is one of minimal interference, except for several past instances of fraud or very bad dealings this board has had. I will add that given the inherent risks of doing business over the internet that the FPN board market has been very good on the whole in treating buyers and sellers decently. Given the possibilities that lurk in internet sales I think minor inconveniences like those discussed by the original poster are minimal compared to the liberty of business enjoyed by many buyers and sellers. I believe that the relative success of the marketplace in internet commerce is due in part to a strong and honest community on the whole, and the relative freedom of dealing in this forum.

Right! And while we're at it, let's get rid od what's left of democracy and let corporate interests have total control, they're pretty close to achieving and they're doing such wonderful job.
Or maybe the people who use the forum could have a voice in it since it would be nothing without them? Remember the exploding Pinto gas tank? Ford management realized it was cheaper to let people burn and pay damages that to change the design. Different situation , same philosophy...

I will repeat something that has been said before...
FPN IS NOT a Democracy.... it is a privately owned enterprise...
The owners of the forum do listen to the wants and desires of the membership and when feasible they will try to act on them accordingly
In this case the "corporate interests" DO HAVE total control... they own it, they run it and it you don't like the way they do it, no body if forcing you to stay or sell your products on the marketplace...
Remember we are all guests here and should act as such...

This is an important point to remember (and one that is easy to overlook), especially if you've only experienced the "visiting" side of the web, rather than the "hosting" side.

Keeping a lively site running takes a tremendous amount of time, effort, and cash. Remember the little red hen. We all want to eat the bread, but it's being baked by a handful of owners.

Ah! The good old principle of submission to authority again! I'm not trying to be contrary but I think those who use the system can have some good ideas for improvement and may have the right to voice their opinion. Nobody is forcing the folks in control to change anything, I don't detect any attempt to wrest power from them. This is a case of people exchanging suggestions and ideas in their desire to make the forum function better. Anyone has the right to object to that goal and I (or any member) have the right to disagree with their. FPN is the best of its kind by far but "leave it alone or leave it" doesn't seem constructive. I would suggest that dialog is beneficial to all.
Forgive another automotive reference but if we had deferred to authority on the matter of seat belts and air bags, we still would't have them. (You and I probably don't need them but they save thousands of lives a year)
And since my satisfaction with FPN runs about 99%, I'm not leaving but thanks for the suggestion.
Submitted in good humor,
Daniel

I agree, it should be the seller's responsibilty to post a "SOLD" message as a response to their listing. I consider it MY responsibilty, why can't we ask for responsible behavior. Indeed we often waste time responding to a listing that gives the impression the item is still for sale (happened again yesterday) no indication of any PMs. Typing just 4 letters (SOLD) would solve that problem.

At no point did anyone say "leave it alone or leave it".....
In fact reread my comment "The owners of the forum do listen to the wants and desires of the membership and when feasible they will try to act on them accordingly'
Does that sound like I was saying that we do not have the right to discuss the way the forum is run or to make suggestions...
YOU are the one crowing about submitting to authority.... and not having the right to state your objections or ideas...
I have been a member here for quite some time.... and I have always found the Owner, Admins and Mods open to discussing my ideas... they might not always agree or be able to implement them, but the do listen....
But as I also stated "In this case the "corporate interests" DO HAVE total control... they own it, they run it and it you don't like the way they do it, no body if forcing you to stay or sell your products on the marketplace...
Remember we are all guests here and should act as such..."
That is not the same as saying "leave it alone or leave it". It is just stating the fact that no matter what we might ask them to do, they do not have to take action on it if for whatever reason it can not be done or in their opinion does not fit the harmony and working of the forum.
And the last line about our being guests here is most important.... Would you go to a friend's house as his guest and demand he change things to make you more comfortable.... This is basically a friend's house, albeit a much bigger one.

I agree- the FPN crew have been very good about listening to suggestions.
It's not always easy to try to both keep things orderly and at the same time listen to everyone's suggestions. FPN is certainly not perfect- but I think the owners and admins here have worked very hard to keep up a good relationship with the users.

It is tempting to say "FPN should be an internet democracy!", but it totally ignores the reality that the website is private property. He who pays for it makes the rules. I will venture to say democracy is alive and VERY strong at FPN due to the fact that FPN is private property. Private property, if you ask me, is very democratic. To me it is very democratic to allow an owner of private property liberty of action with that property.

Corporate powers behind FPN? I don't think so! That was just a characterisation of the thinking that seems to be at work in your comment. Let's face, this is not the first time I've seen you try to silence others. I don't believe this is the spirit of this community that is, in my experience courteous and considerate. I don't condone any of the boderline rude and semi-abusive language I've seen used in messages voicing criticism of the current system. FPN is a great site that deserve our financial support and those responsible for it deserve our thanks. And I don't believe they are hostile to feedback and suggestions as some might infer.
Opinions have been expressed, whatever happens I like FPN, I respect those responsible for it and I'm not leaving, thank you for the offer.
As for games of misunderstanding and taking phrases out of context, sorry, I'm not playing.

I read this post a while ago and figured that I'd seriously think about it so that I wouldn't come up with a dumb question like....

"How could you possibly come up with a link between people burning alive and wasting your time because someone hasn't put a sold sign on a fountain pen? What philosophy could be even remotely "similar"?

Who are you accusing of trying to silence others... I have seen no one try to silence you or anyone else...

I don't know why you keep harping on this statement.... "I'm not leaving, thank you for the offer."
NO ONE has asked you to leave... you seem to have some kind of obsession about that...

Back on topic...several forums I frequent use the edit your sales post method of operation. I'm not aware of any time restriction placed on how long the original poster can edit their post so that is not a concern. It seems to work pretty well but needs to be ingrained a bit in the culture. If you want to take those negotiations or offers by private message only simply state so in your post. If you want to open it up to first post in the thread outline that in your original post. Some forums like you to keep the sold price available so others get an idea of the market. I don't think that's necessary but nice. In the end it is whatever someone will pay anyway.

Being a member of the fountain pen family, I'm sure you're a man of good taste and a pretty nice person. I haven't seen any exception to this rule yet (except on eBay, of course)
We disagree on a few things, let's leave it at that. I hope we meet at some point in the future and maybe clarify the various points made, or maybe have other things to talk about.
A game of "no, what I really meant was.." is not getting us anywhere, not to mention the time involved.
Best regards,
Daniel

Excellent idea. And my sentiments exactly. I don't know why some sellers don't both to post a SOLD notice but they don't. I suppose it hasn't occured to them. If we (FPN, rather) stipulate that requirement as a rule, we may have a solution. And it doesn't necessitate any changes to the software (which would be more expensive)