Friends,

My naive understanding is
845 = 823 + urushi - tranparency.
Correct? Am I missing something?

Does that worth the price difference?

Expert opinions sought (self-proclaimed expert opinions will do).

Thanks,

-Gerard

I'm curious too. Just worked out a deal to buy an clear 823 demonstrator.

Your understanding is incorrect. Below is first a picture of a Custom 823, followed by a 845.

**** pics deleted, added below *****

(sorry, these are not my best pictures). The 823 is a standard cigar type model, the 845 is more a flap top. Filling is also different: the 823 fills the barrel through a vacuum mechanism, the 845 uses a c/c filler.

Ruud

Seems like a slightly modified (flat-top) Urushi version of the Custom 743.

The 845 has an 18K nib vs. 14K for the 823. Both # 15. And the filling systems are different.

I made some better pictures that allow you to compare the looks of both pens better. Both are great writers. The torpedo shaped is the 823, the flat top is the 845.





The nib of Pilot Custom 823 (#15, ie large)



Nib of 845 (two tone)

Thank you all for your learned input, and special thanks to you Ruud for your great pictures. It is not obvious from the pics that one pen should cost ca. $200 more than the other. I guess one must touch he urushi to appreciate the main difference between the two pens.

Traditional Urushi is a special hand applied lacquer that requires a lot of steps and time. Do a google search to learn more.

Whether its worth it or not is a different issue, but it will cost more.

Yes indeed, the touch of urushi is special. Urushi lacquer is very hard so the 845 should be in good condition for a long time. I like it that it is a flat top, as opposed to most other Pilot/Namiki models. I assume (but I am not sure) that the barrel is hand painted. It is so smooth that I find it difficult to believe that it is done automatically. Below is a scan of the flyer that came with the 845. Should I have to choose one of both, I would choose the 845 without hesitation.
Ruud

While I've never handled the 845, I love the filling mechanism and nib of the 823. If the 845 were a piston filler or had the same mechanism the 823 had I feel different.

How much ink do the con-70 converter hold? The C/C in my Sailor, Parker, Waterman will not last through a days work I've started to glance at the 823, but I'm also tempted by the 845...

Kind regards,
Kark

The largest Pilot-Namiki converter holds 1.9 ml of ink. Quite a lot, almost the same as Pelikan M400. On the other hand, Sailor's tiny converter only takes .9 ml. On a large pen such as their King of Pen this puny converter is insufficient and inappropriate.

Does anyone know what the base material for the 845 that the lacquer is applied over is? Also, is the lacquer just on the barrel and cap, or is it on the grip section, too?

It is Urushi. For Pilot's official description, see post #6 above.

Yes, barrel and cap and grip section.
See nice pics on post # 9 above.

Thank you, I could not tell from the pictures whether the grip was coated with urushi, or just the same as the 823, they look the same in the pictures. As for the material, I was referring to the base material the urushi is applied over: is it resin, ebonite, or something else? The description from Pilot mentions ebonite in early pens, but does not say that it was used for the 845.

Oh, also! The 845 has a 18k nib, while the 823 is 14k.

George

No one knows what the urushi is applied over?

My understanding is that it's ebonite. At least, that's what the seller from whom I purchased my Custom 845 said.

Both are excellent writers, as they come with the wonderful Pilot #15 nib. Though as previously mentioned, the 823 sports a 14k gold tone nib, whereas the 845 comes with an 18k two-tone nib. The 823 is about as well-balanced as you can get IMHO and is one of the best writers I've ever used. The 845 is an equally capable writer, but with the touch and feel you can find only in an urushi finish. In the end, I think the decision to pay extra for the 845 (I paid a little over $100 more for my 845 compared to my 823) comes down to personal tastes and priorities.

If you like the classic torpedo shape and prefer a pen with greater ink capacity, then you can't go wrong with an 823. I think it's a very good value. If you prefer the flat-top design, don't care for demonstrator models, or don't want to deal with Pilot's vacuum filling mechanism, then you may be better off going with the 845, if you don't mind spending extra for the urushi finish.

To be honest, I think the 845 is a little overpriced based on what certain retailers are asking. But I still think it's a decent value if you can find one at a good price. If you are patient enough, you can pick one up at a good price on eBay. I would recommend Taizo Okagaki (eBay name "engeika" and "japan_antique"), a respected seller with whom many FPNers have had pleasant dealings. (No affiliation - just a satisfied customer).

Regarding ink capacity, I found the filling mechanism of the 823 a little disappointing only because I could never get a complete fill, even while using Pilot's 70ml ink bottle. But it nevertheless works well, is a neat mechanism, and still holds a good deal of ink. The 845 comes with Pilot's Con70 converter, which has an ink capacity of 1.1 ml. It's nowhere near the capacity of piston fillers, but is still better than the capacity of many other converters, such as Sailor's.

Just my two cents.

EPILOGUE: I went with the 845.
I cannot afford it, but then again, I cannot afford the 823 either.
Follow the logic? Me neither .

Thanks again for all your learned input.
-Gerard