Hi,

I am curious to know if Cross still manufactures in the USA? Conversely, was the Cross Townsend Made in the USA?

Thanks!

Most Townsends were made in the US. Several years ago, Cross began shifting production to China. I believe the most recent Townsends are from China. The earlier ones are from Rhode Island.

Hi,

The pens are made in Rhode Island, although certain sub-assemblies come from China.

Dillon

I'm not so sure how many pens are still being made in the US.
If you drive by the headquarters of AT Cross these days you will see a large portion of the factory area being torn down, leaving only the administrative offices and warehouse still standing. Employees who work in the outlet store there are quite friendly and happy to talk about the company and will tell you that almost all production is now overseas. The notable exceptions being pens made for a couple of accounts (I think Tiffany was one of them) who insisted that the pens they purchase need to be made in the USA.

Thank you. I just asked a question similar to this one on the Writing Instrument forum. I had understood that most Cross production had gone overseas, mostly to China. I am sorry to hear that.

Are the Townsend nibs out-sourced to Pilot/Namiki or are they made in-house ?

All the new Cross pens come in boxes marked "Made in China", except for the Tech3, which is marked "Made in Japan."

Cheers,

Jim Mamoulides
www.PenHero.com

That is a shame but 50 years from now made in China will be a good thing, kinda like made in Japan back in the 50's.

Thanks
Brad

Too bad. I was just contemplating a Apogee but I guess I'll pass now. I don't think I want any more of my dollars contributing to the trade deficit that I then, get to pay more taxes on to pay off the loan that we get in return. From now on, it's Bexley or vintage...or more socialistic origins.

Cedar

My Green Translucent Townsend box says "Assembled in USA of US an foreign components." While I bought it recently, it was I think a 1999 issue. But on the Townsend Tuxedo box I bought one or two years ago, it just says "China."

If you are looking for an American made pen (at least partially), you have to look elsewhere.

Never! We'll probably be at war with them by then.

That's a strong statement, slightly ignorant dont you think

I just picked up an Apogee in Frosty Steel with a Fine Point. I am told by one who knows, that the nib is made by Pelikan.

Pelikan doesn't make its own nibs anymore, they use Bock nibs.

I received a Medalist yesterday. It's the first Townsend I've ever handled, and I don't know who makes the nibs, but one of the first things I noticed when I rolled it over were the little "creases" in the underside of the tines that tell me "Pilot".

The pen is marked "Ireland" on the cap, BTW.

-- Brian

I'd love to open a new thread in the chatter, titled:

"Where is the middle-class gone?"

Fact or fiction? Judge for yourself:

At a superficial glance Chinese made products seem like a real bargain: the Chinese do the dirty, bad paid work and we buy stuff that is really cheap.

Well, but that is short sighted. What we forget is that

1. Middle-class as a social stabilizing factor has been significantly diminished in Europe and the USA during the last decade.
2. Industries are closing down - labor intensive jobs are lost in the USA and Western Europe, moving towards Asia and eastern Europe. Those who benefit from this are shareholders and managers. The rest of the population has difficulties finding a job that pays enough to make a living. Many people even need two or three jobs to make a living.
3. What if in the end the Chinese wages rise? Will the jobs come back? I would not bet my life on that.

I don't want to be overpessimistic, but in the end it might be that we have only Cartier for the rich and Chinese rubbish for the poor. A nightmare come true.

Nah. They went from here to Japan to Taiwan to China. Taiwan's seeing some of the same problems we are (in some sectors).

I think it's sad, and I won't be buying any new Cross pens, but I will enjoy the ones I have, as well as any older ones that may need my attention.

Suport America. If no good American pens are available, buy from an ally, Pelikan (Germany), Parker (France).

Aren't Pelikan Malaysian owned these days? Oh the joys of globalisation

I made the decision not to buy products from countries that do not compete on a fair basis. The US worker can not compete with state subsidized labor such as China. Add to that that when we buy products from China (just as one example) the quality control is questionable, and tax dollars that would go into our economy from worker's wages now go over seas. The trade deficit adds another burden to the American taxpayer because now we have a trade deficit. Those dollars come back to the US via loans from China and the US taxpayer is paying the interest on those loans. Companies that go overseas avoid paying taxes, another drain of tax dollars that don't go to rebuilding/building the US infrastructure nor providing social services to the American people. That tax burden, again gets shifted to the middle class and poor. I only need look around to see business after business folding up because they can't compete with products from China (primarily). I only need look around to see the local fire department holding Chicken BBQs as fund raisers and our schools selling candy bars and other food items to raise funds. Recently, the news reported that positions are being cut in the DA's office in several cities in this area due to funding deficits. There are cases that need to be prosecuted in order to keep our localities safe and provide funding (such as parking tickets) that would go into the budgets for the local economies.
So it is one big messy circle and quite complex. As long as we continue to buy those products we are shooting our selves in the foot and our wallets. This is not always easy but that's what I've decided to do. Vintage or buy pens made in countries that are competing fairly with US labor as much as possible. Jobs and companies can and will come back but it will be a struggle but not if we keep buying the products. IMO
I just bought my first Cross pen off eBay and it is one of my best writers. I don't know what model it is or where it was made. I don't think it is a current model. But it really piqued my interest in purchasing another Cross pen until I found out that they are shifting production to China. I will find alternatives.
Cedar

I would like to add a quote from the Lamy homepage.

Please keep in mind that I do not work for Lamy and I am not otherwise affiliated to them.

My sole motivation is to make people aware what they spend their hard earned dollars for.
If people would more often refuse buying certain brands, that would have an impact stronger than any law or import tax.

I wished we could start a "made in the western world" nostalgia - or call it awareness.
I strongly believe that my money deserves something better than "made in china".


Made in Heidelberg
Genuine Lamy

Writing instruments from Lamy can be seen on the New York Stock Exchange, at conferences in Tokyo, or in the lecture halls of Buenos Aires. And each of these writing instruments first saw the light of day in Heidelberg, the city with Germany’s oldest university.

Here, just a few minutes by car from the world-famous ensemble of castle, old town and the River Neckar, Lamy develops and produces fountain pens, ink rollerballs, ballpoint pens and propelling pencils which have been amongst the most popular examples of modern design since 1966.

And, despite increasing globalisation, nothing will change this in future. Because Lamy is firmly rooted in its Heidelberg location. An employer of around 400 people from the city and its surrounding area, a patron of culture and a sponsor. But also a family firm which knows precisely that it draws part of its strength and authenticity from a vibrant region which for centuries has stood for science, research and cosmopolitanism.

Quote taken from Lamy website:
http://www.lamy.com/the_company/corporate_.../index_eng.html

It is surprising how the pens and company epitomize globalization, capitalism etc.. If I draw the topic back to the pens a bit..

My perspective as a cross ballpoint pen user is different. I can only say that the pens were always very durable. I have several Cross pens that never break; the most durable pens I own. They still don't write as well as other pens though. This is sad, and in that regard, brings us back to Cross and the topic.

I like the fact that Cross stands behind their product and will repair/replace the product as they have always done (even
if for a nonimal fee these days). When made in the USA I can't say the quality was any better as I did have to return several
for repair/replacement. I can say, that the pen refills I've purchased recently (from China) are more consistent in
how they write. The US refills varied quite a bit; there were some I liked and some I didn't. I have a refill still from 2001
that I like the best..if all the refills were like this (from the US or China) I would write with Cross pens exclusively.
But even the current refills don't match how this one writes or some other ballpoints I use.

So I've seen, as a consumer, more pen choices and finishes from AT Cross. I have not seen the manufacturing money saved put back into research for a better writing pen that writes better than their competition. I really think they need some refill technology that gives them an advantage over all the other pens out there.

In that regard I don't know if anyone left at Cross is listening. They don't necesessarily have to a be a small private company manufacturing everything in the USA (as I still can't use the pens if they don't write well). Rather they need
to provide good durability, service, and an exceptional writing experience that will make me buy and use their products over other manufacturers.

I think the distributor for Pelikan is Malasian, but the maker is still German. All new Pelikans still say GERMANY on the cap band. The boxes also say MADE IN GERMANY (FABRIQUE EN R.F.A) or German Federated Republic


As far as am concerned Pelikan, Parker and Lamy are the only fountain makers who have not sold out!

I'm a bit dubious about Parker in this context. Where do they make the Jotters and Vectors?

I would add Conway Stewart and Bexley to the list of makers who haven't 'sold out', although I appreciate that they are working on a much smaller scale.

Isn't the Jotter still made in the U.K?

Jotter bp's and fp's are, just like the Vector fp, The IM/Profile fp and the Reflex bp and fp made in the UK. The Parker Urban bp is made in China.

[quote name='Unic' date='Feb 15 2008, 08:39 AM' post='514961']
I would like to add a quote from the Lamy homepage.

Please keep in mind that I do not work for Lamy and I am not otherwise affiliated to them.

My sole motivation is to make people aware what they spend their hard earned dollars for.
If people would more often refuse buying certain brands, that would have an impact stronger than any law or import tax.

I wished we could start a "made in the western world" nostalgia - or call it awareness.
I strongly believe that my money deserves something better than "made in china".


[b]Made in Heidelberg
Genuine Lamy


Lamy is good. And I have two. I may have to consider more..............if I want to keep indulging this madness. At least I don't imagine a big diesel burning ship is required to bring them to the States, piggy backed in semi-trailers. I wonder how they do ship them.
Cedar

Shoot! I had my eye on a Cross Century II fp, but now I'm not so sure. I've always liked Cross pens and I have four vintage Cross Century Classic chrome ballpoints and pencils. All four say made in the U.S.A. on them. These are the only ballpoints I like to write with. The new Century Classics that I have are made in China and I have to say that I can tell a difference in quality between the old U.S.A. pens and the new China ones. This makes my appreciate my Pelikans and Lamys so much more.

From Cross's point of view however, globalization is working. Our RI newspaper's business section recently reported on Cross having an excellent year financially with record forth quarter profits.

As for brands still being produced at home, please don't tell me my Visconti's, Stipulas and Auroras are now Chineese.....say it ain't so. I'm still trying to deal with OMAS's sale to a "far Eastern investment group"

Don´t want to disappoint you on that but I have a Cross pen too that is stamped Ireland.
It was bought in 1992!!! Does not seem to make sense when you say the plant was only opened in the mid 90´s.

But let´s face it - they are all Chinese made.

Read what wikipedia says:

"Due to rising financial difficulties in the early 2000s, A.T. Cross began to outsource the manufacturing of its products to China. By 2006, all Cross pen products were Chinese-made, the company had sold the Rhode Island building that housed its headquarters, and the U.S.-based portion of its workforce numbered under 100."

Sorry. It hurts me too!!!

Yes, I have one of those earlier Cross Century ballpoints stamped Ireland...sent to me when I sent mine
in for repair in 2001.

I have a recent Century ballpoint where, when screwing the refill in it clicks and keeps turning. Looking at the thread
inside the pen one can see it is made out of plastic and is cracked. The metal body keeps the crack/thread from expanding and the refill still stays. Looking at my Apogee ballpoint, it also holds the refill on plastic threads.

Looking at my earlier Centuries, including the one from Ireland, the pen threads that hold the refill are made out of metal.

This seems quite similar to the modern Parker Jotter (plastic threading) vs the older USA ones (metal threads). Progress
indeed of pen industry.

My Parker Sonnet sterling silver ballpoint from approx. 1994 has plastic inside too. It is stamped made in France and cost the equivalent of more than 100 cheeseburgers. Not what i expect for the money.

I could imagine that the managers of Parker or Cross do not use their own products, inferior as they are. It is so sad, because the quality of Cross and Parker used to be proverbial.

In third world countries,like India,parker is taking up partnerships with local companies producing their jotter and vector line locally and are not afraid of admitting it,but they do take pride in printing "Made In U.K.\U.S.A"on their caps.This is cost effective,outsourcing production to cheaper places and therefore not focusing on quality.This causes a dramatic drop in prics and so allowing the entire population to thik that they have bought a lifestyle product but in fact they are just buying for the once great name that was Parker.Today a normal vector fountain pen sells for a hundred rupees or 2 dollars US,at a time,a jotter would be the envy of every pen enthusiast just like todays Montblancs,Auroras and Visconties.If you now look at the people on the street,almost 3\4th of the educated population is carrying a Parker,the entire point of a good pen is defeated.

Since it doesn't look (after a quick skim at work) as if anyone else has, let me state the obvious solution for those that hate globalization: vintage pens! Every pen in my overflowing pen case says made in USA or Germany, and every pen but two were paid in US dollars to a US private seller. This technology is so tough and enduring that I can't see ever having to buy a new fountain pen in my lifetime. And I have the added advantage of getting gold-nibbed, smooth, beautiful pens for less than the cost of ten McDonald's burgers.

I just got paranoid and checked. All of my fountain pen ink claims it is made in France. So my hobby remain low carbon and political prisoner free.

Steve

FWIW....... I care not about "globalization," the owner can manufacture the product anywere he wishes. After all most labor is garbage these days anyway and the quality of management is what determs the quality of the product. What erks me is that to shave a penney they engineer an inferior solution. If, manufacturing in a third world country, they save a penney using plastic and it makes a superior product, I would be happy, but they don't do that.

I'm right there with you. I don't care WHERE it is made as much as I care WHAT is made and HOW it is made.

Unfortunately, for many companies, the decision to shift production from the U.S. or Europe to a third world company is often accompanied by a redesign of the product (to make it cheaper to produce) and a general reduction in the level of quality control (often because management remains in the U.S. or Europe).

Cross and Sheaffer have both gone for overseas production. USA pen companies seem to be unaware that most pen buyers what the reassurance that the pen they intend to buy comes from the original pen maker with all the heritage that involves. Parker and Waterman brands are a bit safer mainly because the French have greater job protection and the exporting of jobs meets with a defence from their trade unions. Cross in the UK has also become very greedy. Up until October last year we were their largest internet mail order customer spending £60,000 per year ($110,000). They reduced the margin in Europe by 30% and expeceted that we would keep on trading. The Cross pens we now sell we import.

The trouble with such issues like the sub contracting of production to China is that reversing the decision is nigh on impossible. The great legacy of these brands will be lost forever Alonzo Cross and W A Sheaffer must be spinning in their graves.

Peter Ford
MrPen in the UK.

pILOT MAKES SOME NIBS/FEDS FOR cROSS, HOWEVER, THE CARAT GOLOD NIBS W/ FEEDS ARE pelikan, MANUFACTURED TO cROSS SPECS

The makers of fountain pens need to understand that a fountain pen is different from other luxury goods in that it lasts for decades and sometimes for generations -- unlike consumable luxury goods like single malt whisky or high end colognes, and unlike fashion-dependent luxury goods like clothing, shoes, and briefcases.

The buyers of fountain pens place value on craftsmanship and tradition. They honestly like the idea that the pen might have been made by the son or granddaughter of a person who made similar pens 25 or 50 years ago. They like the idea that the owner walks through the factory every day and knows his workforce. This is the business model that has worked for fountain pens over the years.

It seems to me that the American companies have been the leaders at moving away from this model. The Europeans have a bit more stability. The Japanese seem to have the greatest stability. Does anyone know if Sailor, Pilot, and Platinum are outsourcing any of their pens?

One of the interesting things about Cross is that it's a public company, and therefore must file certain documents with the SEC. Read the 2007 10-K filing. Contrast it with the 1995 10-K. It'll make a few things clear about what's going on with Cross.

Well, there I was thinking that I needed a good-quality Chinese pen, to 'fill a gap' in my 'worldwide collection'.

Then I got myself a very nicely put-together new Cross Townsend from PenHero.....when I saw the printing on the box I realised that the gap is filled! I find it hard to see how it could be 'better-made', in any country.

Now, perhaps, an Indian and a Russian ....

BTW, my experience with musical instruments has shown that some Chinese companies are capable of producing superbly-engineered products and components .... it is disingenuous to say that all Chinese-made products are "rubbish".

(The political implications of 'globalisation' are another ball-game altogether )

That's a good way to think about globalization, it's not bad, as someone has stated that Cross is doing better than ever as a result of it. Just my 2 cents.

Brad

If the US went to war against China, it would likely be a short war, since China has more troops in their army than the US has people in the country. Since the US is so hugely outnumbered, a war would inevitably and probably rapidly, escalate to the nuclear option, obliterating pretty much all intelligent (?) life on the planet.

I suspect that the US and China are now at the MAD (mutually assured destruction) level which the US formerly enjoyed with the Soviet Union. The only question is whether China has the ability to deliver the payload effectively. A strong motivator for both countries to prevent war. This is the 25th anniversary of the release of "War Games", and a lot of theaters are having a big screen rerelease party to show the film again. It is a film with a lot of holes in the plot, but it definitely and dramatically demonstrates the futility of total warfare in the modern world.

And keep in mind, I am in no way a "peacenik" or peace at any price kind of person. If anything, most people would consider me a "hawk". That does not mean I do not see the futility of nuclear war.

Donnie

I see two issues here.............

1.Is the problem that of poor quality after the production has been shifted to China?

OR

2.Is it that of not buying a pen NOT made in America?

IMHO

The former is quite understandable for anyone wanting a quality product which most people relate with Cross.

The second smacks of a mindset very much out of place in the present world.

Like most things made in China it is a matter of extremely poor quality while keeping the price at the same level or in many instances raising it.

I believe you will find that even if the quality is equal, people in the USA are tired of all of the jobs going to other countries.

Speaking strictly as a consumer, I don't mind AT Cross' outsourcing as long as:

• their quality doesn't go down
• Cross continues its lifetime warranty (as opposed to Sheaffer and Parker/Waterman's 3 year warranty)
• warranty work can be performed quickly (as opposed to Parker/Waterman taking a month, due to the repair work being in France)

I hope the cost-cutting achieved though outsourcing, will allow Cross to continue to offer their lifetime warranty --- as well as survive in the 21st century.

-Mike

I am sorry, it is simply prejudice to make such a sweeping generalisation about the vast quantities of products produced by this huge country, which has a very long history of producing some really wonderful works of art.

Of course some Chinese products are of poor quality, but that is also true of the USA, UK, Germany...wherever.

As for my 'Chinese Cross', I find it hard to imagine how it could be better-made for the new price I paid.

I am no apologist for the Chinese government, and find many Chinese attitudes and habits distasteful at best, but that is not the issue.

The point I was making way back was not that any quality is lost by Cross exporting its production, it is more to do with a purchaser's perception of origin. If a Rolex (not a copy)watch was made in China rather than Switzerland the product kudos would be severely reduced. This would also be true of many prestigious items where the name is synonymous with craftsmanship and heritage. If the argument is about quality and only quality then I agree where Cross pens are made is immaterial. If, however it is also about product status then it is material.

A thought that got triggered from the above........would the product kudos be as severely reduced if say for example Rolex started making watches in USA/UK as compared to China/Taiwan?