Yesterday I was re-sacing a nice Esterbrook transitional J. The sac was shellacked onto the section and all talced up. The section would not fit back into the barrel. I decided that a little heat was called for. I patiently tried a little heat, then a little more heat, and a little more. Suddenly, I had a roman candle in my hand! Luckily, I was working next to the kitchen sink and dropped the flaming thing in there. There was barely time to turn loose of it! All that was left was a trail of ashes, a lever and ring, and a j-bar. Sheesh! Next time, yours truly is gonna stick to using hot water.

Paddler

Are you saying that your ' little heat' included an open flame ? Or it burst into flames from too much hair dryer heat ?
Greg

Wow! Great balls of Fire!
I use the hot water method--putting pen in baggie. I use a cooking thermometer to check temp. And put container back in microwave(without the pen) when the water temp goes below 130 degrees.
But, I have set fire to a broken barrel to see it burn and now I want to go and get out my painter's stripgun and see it if I can ignite one.

I've said this in every discussion I've participated on the subject of heat and I'll say it again: Know the temperature you're dealing with - purchase (or steal from the kitchen) a decent dial thermometer (I use a Taylor meat thermometer) and test the air temp. coming from your heat gun/hair dryer/whatever.

Shellac softens at 140 degrees +/- a few, so there is seldom need for temperatures over 145 or so. Hard rubber is a bit more forgiving and will withstand higher temperatures - I can't remember the exact temps I've used to set feeds but I"m sure there is some information out there. Celluloid can soften at around 175 degrees, depending on the exact type of celluloid you're dealing with, and at temperatures beyond that, as you've experienced, the big flame is a sudden and exciting possibility.

I use a good, infinite temperature adjustment heat gun and I still check the air temp with a thermometer on a regular basis and always when I'm away from my normal setting (145 degrees).

Some folks will advise you to test the temperature of your material by touching it and feeling if it is too hot to hold. This, IMHO, is only good advice if:
A. you are fairly experienced with your heat source and know how hot it gets, how fast, how far from the source, etc.
B. you are fairly experienced with the particular material you're working with and understand how much heat it can withstand.
C. you approach the project with some degree of patience so as not to "touch" something that will burn you. Note: you usually only do this once, unless you're a ways down the evolutionary chain.

My best advice for non-pro pen repairers: Get a thermometer and use it - know how hot you're getting that pen.

Have fun.
BTW: did you have that "Wylie Coyote" look on your face?

Ok, Flexynib, from what you have said....

"But, I have set fire to a broken barrel to see it burn and now I want to go and get out my painter's stripgun and see it if I can ignite one."

I am thinking a stop by your local " firestarterAnon" class might be appropriate...
LOL

After burning a small divot into the barrel of what WAS a nice black Scheaffer Balance, I now know that when using a heat gun, total concentration on the task is required. The ignition point of plastic lowers as it ages.

No open flame. I was using the hot air heat gun from Tryphon. I was taking it slow and exercising patience (I thought). I would apply some heat and then grab the barrel with my fingers to test the temperature and then try to insert the section. It would not fit. More heat, test, try, etc. My fingers were in the air stream most of the time and the hot air was not hot enough to burn them. Suddenly, I heard a hissing noise from the barrel. There was very little flame and not much smoke. The barrel just turned to a pile of smoking, stinking, black rubble in front of my eyes. The whole catastrophe took only two or three seconds - time to turn loose of the barrel, no time to hunt up a safe place to drop it. Luckily, I was doing this on the porcelain drain board at the kitchen sink.

One thing that may have contributed to the combustion: I had just used a dental tool to scrape the shellac out of the barrel where the section fit in. There was probably some shellac and plastic dust near the barrel mouth. The heat gun may have inhaled a dust particle and sent it out as a hot spark that ignited the dust inside the barrel.

Paddler

I'm thinking the shellac had something to do with it. I tried to repeat this with a heatgun yesterday.
I used part of a 1946 sheaffer barrel and a paint stripper gun. The plastic melted, bubbled after more than a minute of heat. My brave sheaffer started to smoke, and partway turned to ash but did not burst into flame. At this point I could not contain myself and I grabbed the zippo and lit the remaining part of the barrel. The sheaffer burned like a flare, making a lot of smoke. I safely did this at my basement sink with a cup of water to dip the ember in.
This makes me even more cautious about always using hot water bath, or long overnight soak(on sections that are not hard rubber).
I visited my FIL over holiday. He had a Moore L-96 that was his father's. I told him I would replace the sac. Of course, I used the hot water, pen in bag method. I re-heated water three or four times. He was very pleased with fixed pen.
I could imagine that a flaming tuscan would have got us wrote out of the will.
Thanks for posting your experience so we can all learn.
Mary

Yep...been there, done that -- which is why I vowed never to use a heat gun again on a pen. When it happened to me, I threw the flaming pen into the fireplace which is in the kitchen in my house. Not realizing that the fireplace screen was in the way, the ball of fire shot down to the floor. I ran for the fire extinguisher next to the stove, but by the time I made it back by the fireplace, all that was left was singed remnants of what used to be a pen. Thankfully the fireball shot back down to bricked area surrounding the fireplace, and not on the hardwood floor. The next time I'm even tempted to use a heat gun, I'll save myself the trouble and just throw the pen in the BBQ grill out back.

Now you know one of the reasons how and why the professional restorer earns their pay! Knowing the limits, knowing how hot to get things, knowing the material is all part of the process of repairing a pen. All of us have fried a pen or two, or more. It's part of the process.

The heat gun is the tool that is used by most if not all restorers, and at least 4 that I know of use the one sold by Giovanni or one identical to it. That's all that I use, all day, every day. The same with Richard. The fault lies not with the heat gun, but with the technique used. I dare say that if you are really going to master pen repair, knowing how to use a heat gun properly is one of the skills that you have to learn. It's an essential tool.

Knowing what the temperature will be at different distances is important. Longer heat at a distance may be better than right up to the outlet. And I do check to see how hot things are getting by feeling the temperature of the barrel as I go. Getting too agressive, too fast can fry a pen.

The bag-and-hot water method makes me more far more uncomfortable than a heat gun. You can easily discolor the celluloid with the moisture. I also don't think that you will have enough heat for many repairs, including heating down a feed.

I guess I'll have to get one of those little guns and try to remove some sections with it. I guess there are risks in anything we do, and I wouldn't want to mess up a pen worth hundreds of dollars, but so far I haven't broken one barrel on the cheap pens I've fixed. Lucky I guess.
There is so much to learn here at FPN.

Interesting stuff celluloid (the real celluloid which is cellulose nitrate, not the other stuff). When they used clear celluloid as a film base for long rolls of motion picture film it would occasionally, and quite spontaneously combust. Supposedly the colorants added to it for pen stock and other things, has a stabilizing effect on it. From what I have read it is at its heart an unstable material, complete with its own oxidizer, and grows more unstable with age. I would guess that in comparison that shellac would be a model of stability. At this point I am perfectly comfortable in accepting that a good heat gun could ignite fifty year old celluloid.

Ignition is not the only danger when using a heat gun. I recently picked up one of the same heatgun as mentioned here, and on my first use managed to "banana-pen" (ie, bend) a barrel. Ouch. Nothing I paid much for, but a nice pen is now a real user.

Use carefully, use slowly, or learn painful lessons.

John

"on my first use managed to "banana-pen" (ie, bend) a barrel."

Can't you apply heat again and bend it back ?

Sometimes, but its a lot like boiling a spagetti noodle and then trying to dry it into a straight hard piece again.

Celluloid is given pretty good treatment in Wikipedia where you will note the Camphor ingredient (up to 30%). Probably the basis for the smell test re celluloid. Fountain pens are even mentioned briefly.

Cellulose Nitrate is explained, and Cellulose Acetate, the more modern less flammable version is also mentioned.

Now to mention heat sources...

I'd like to avoid judgemental terms that usually get mentioned and try to put what I believe into a more neutral perspective. So, please consider the following with an open mind - at least until I finish...

Open Flame heating isn't wrong - it was practised by all professional restorers in the past - and is described (and illustrated) in many of the earlier repair manuals by Sheaffer, Parker etc..., not just by Dubeil.

It has its risks (as do the other methods that follow), but probably the most serious drawback is the tiime it takes to become proficient to the point where one doesn't damage pens on a regular basis. As Ron has said, knowledge of the materials one is working with is essential, and a long apprentiship is normally required to become proficient with open flame, but proficiency can be attained. I also note that these repair persons didn't have heat guns as an alternative.

But if you're good at it - there's nothing wrong in using it.

Heat gun heating isn't wrong - it is practised by most professional restorers currently. It takes less time to master than open flame, and there is a lower probability of an accident. Knowledge of the tool, technique and materials being worked on is still important to success though, and adverse reactions are still possible. Selection of an appropriate tool will minimize the risk, and a lot less experience is necessary if the right tools are used ( infinitely variable heat guns vs embossing tools vs paint strippers).

Immersion in hot water isn't wrong. The temperature is pretty easy to control, although the plastic bag probably introduces local temperature differences unless care is taken to avoid folds, air pockets etc. The risk of fire is practically zero (if not actually zero), temperature measurement may be easier than with the hot air method, and certainly easier than with open flame, but some materials can be damaged by water, so again, knowledge of the technique and materials is important. My guess is that this technique could be much less risk for a beginner, but experience and knowledge is still necessary.

Another technique that I am looking into is an adaptation of the one used by opticians in adjusting plastic eyeglass frames. A small 'Crock Pot' filled with tiny glass beads can be heated to a pretty stable temperature and held accurately (if electronic control is used - not too bad if manual - due to the thermal inertia of the medium), and there is no possibility of damage by water. Ideally, I'd like to use the glass beads that they use, as these don't have sharp edges that might mar the plastic finish, but I might also consider fine sand, or other similar material. Temperature measurement would be dead simple, and the system pretty suitable for the bench. Not sure if there are issues with the beads and nib/feed openings, but I think I have a solution for that too. Enhancements could include electronic control of the temperature. I would suspect that this method represents the shortest learning time and the least risk to the pen regardless of material. One disadvantage is the length of time needed to adjust the temperature if more heat is needed - but if quick response is required, see 'open flame'... . The heat gun is quicker too - but keeping track of the temp is still an issue.

I trust I haven't offended any particular camp, but I wanted to depart from the right / wrong approach, and to suggest that it really a matter of choices. I wouldn't want to challenge anyone, but I wonder if it were a contest between a 1930's craftsman working with an open flame, an advanced hobbiest today working with a heat gun and thermometer, or a beginning hobbiest working with a cup of hot water, which repair would be completed earlier, and with the least likelihood of failure.

Regards,

Gerry

I understand what you're saying Gerry, but I disagree.

I do not want someone who is just starting pen repar to think that open flame is in any way safe. It's not. It is the method of heating a pen that carries the most risk, and therefore I believe should be avoided, especially in since the other methods are so readily available. I take many risks as I repair pens every day, but this is one that I will never take again, having had a pen catch fire one day. (which BTW has never happened with a heat gun) A friend and I later completed the "burn" of the section outside later that day, and the intensity of the flame from that little vac section convinced me.

There are a limited number of pens out there, and their value keeps going up. I think it's prudent to minimize the risk. One is free to ignore my comments of course. But do keep in mind that I, and other repair people who will not use open flame handle more pens in a week than most people on the board handle in a year. There's a lot of experience there, both good and bad!

Now, if you want a frame warmer with which to experiment, I have one that I'll sell to you at cost. (less than $50) No glass beads to go with it, but the thing works just fine. It has an electronic temperature control and everything. I experimented with it, and found that the problem is getting even distribution of the heat through the glass beads (or salt) from top to bottom. That and determining how long to leave it in the beads before the plastic gets too soft.

With everything I'm saying???

I understand your point too Ron.

Perhaps I should have been very clear that it was an opinion piece, and intended to get people thinking about the subject carefully rather than me pronouncing trade practice recommendations. In fact, I don't believe I recommended any particular method. Didn't intend to.

I hope everyone reading it saw the emphasis on the level of skill, knowledge and technique required for all methods, and can easily make an informed selection based on their own circumstance.

I believe that it should be quite evident to any novice starting out that when professional restorers almost universally choose the heat gun method there's a valuable message to be taken from that.

But there were, and may still be some people safely practising the 'other' method, (see, you've already got me speaking PC)... and I see no reason for them to be ashamed of that skill, or for them to have to make excuses or hide the fact. Because it isn't worth the time or effort or cost in damaged pens to learn the practice, I suspect that we'll see the end of people with the ability to do this kind of work fairly soon anyway, if we haven't already, unless someone is perhaps attracted to it as an art form or a strong desire to work traditionally.

Thank you for the experience regarding the frame warmer, and it's limitations - I suspect the slow throughput and heating start up time would also deter the professional, but just for debate purposes wouldn't you suspect that it would likely be safer for the novice since the temp variability would be even less of a problem than for the hot air gun?

And I'd specifically like to thank the contributors so far for their comments - there were some very interesting, informative and surprising (information wise) posts made. I hope that some more empirical data comes along about as a result of some of the experiments proposed.

I'd specially like to see some of this information collected into a FAQ like document we might pin to the top of the forum - plastics / temperatures - known limits, advice re aged plastics / temps... etc... perhaps various sealants / temps. I don't know whether there are enough different set points to make it worthwhile, but just seeing people's thoughts is quite enlightening and might be useful to organize into a post.

Volunteers????

Regards to all

Gerry

Gerry - here is another thing to think about; when open flame was the accepted (and only available) technique for heating pen parts, there were spare parts available. If a repair person, likely someone working in the shop that sold the pen, torched a part, there wasn't a problem getting another. I believe this is the same reason there was never a reliable method developed for repacking Sheaffer Vacuum filler packing units - no one needed to. Only now, after the need has arisen have techniques been developed.

Many modern repair techniques were never considered in the "golden age" because there simply was no need - grab a spare part and keep going. Not so these days.

I understand your point that flame is a viable techniques IF you have sufficient experience - but I agree with Ron there is no point putting a dwindling supply of pen parts at higher risk than necessary. I guess I'm saying that if heat guns are the preferred method of the pro's, I probably should pay attention.

This is a good discussion thread which will help a lot of people sort out their feelings...
I think Kelly has introduced a very important point..... a mistake back when the factory literature was written meant very little compared to the same today... add to that fact the possibility that age/oxidation/Light/ free radicals ( it could ! LOL) change the reaction time or temperature of the plastic to flame... and I think some kind of non flame procedure seems more prudent to me.... on the other hand..if you have legally bought your pen--you own it --- if you want to SMOKE IT... go right ahead.... LOL
I just thought that was a funny thing to say.... I am a conservator at heart..... Greg

Gerry,

I thought you were quite clear, but maybe an analogy would help: Tools are to pen restorers as musical instruments are to musicians.

When a person is just learning, all tools, techniques, instruments if you will, are foreign objects. They don't feel right in our hands, and we don't know how to use them very well. Only time and practice makes them feel like old friends, and allow us to use them with skill and finesse. Only patience and diligence improve our techniques.

Taking the musician analogy one step further: Jazz musicians learn in part how to improvise by listening to others. Then, they steal their ideas, modify them, and make them their own. Every once in a great while, this will lead to a new idea. This is exactly what we do as pen restorers. Most of us are incredibly grateful for the mentoring we've received and the ideas that we all share with each other and we like to look for ways to pay all of this forward to all those folks that will be fixing pens when we're long gone.

In the hands of a master, an alcohol lamp is a great tool. In the hands of a novice, the best thermostatically controlled whatzits can be a total disaster...

So, for new folks, maybe the best things to remember are to go slowly, be patient, and be diligent. This is why so many of us that restore vintage pens on a regular basis advise those who want to learn to start with junker pens. It takes time to develop technique. Most of us change the way we do things over time, sometimes rather significantly. Still, continuing to learn is a big part of the fun...


Oh, and FWIW, I use a heat gun. Burning celluloid does not smell like victory!


Cheers,
Tom

'Ain't that the truth!

Can you provide an example of a manufacturer's repair manual that prescribes the use of open flame heating for section removal on a celluloid pen?

--Daniel

I can give you examples of the repair manuals saying to use anything BUT open flame to take a pen apart.

The Parker repair mauals from the 1930s show the use of an alcohol lamp being used to adjust the feed, but not for taking the pen apart. Most of the Parker mauals from the 1930s don't suggest using heat at all, but rather suggest wacking the threads agains the edge of a table to break the shellac that his holding the section in. Something that is NOT recommended today BTW because the materials have become brittle.

The repair manual that I have from 1954 says that if tapping the threads of the barrel with rubber-covered jaws of the section pliers doesn't break the section threads loose, you should "carefully apply heat to the threads of the barrel. This may be done by dropping very hot water (approximately 150 degrees F) onto the outside of the threads with an eye dropper. This is the safest method as direct application of flame is liable to ignite the barrel." (my italics)

Today we know that moist heat (steam, hot water) can cloud celluloid, so dry heat is better..... Open flame may have been suggested for a hard rubber barrel, but celluloid is a whole different ball game.

BTW, the copies of the Parker repair manuals that I have are copies of manuals that came from Frank Dubiel's estate. My thanks to Susan Wirth for letting me use them!

Hmm, well there are all kinds of heat guns. The ones I'm accustomed to using in electronics have an air exit temperature up to 1,000 degrees F. That's a little bit warmer than you need I think.

The belief that the use of open flame for section removal was manufacturer-recommended and is illustrated in their professional repair manuals has become so widely reported that it has become unquestioned fact in our field, as the posts above demonstrate -- witness such formulations as



Aside from the questionable assumption about how likely it is that the risk of a Roman-candle-like event in a room or a whole shop filled with equally combustible objects would be considered acceptable even in the golden age of pen repair when replacement parts were inexpensive and easily obtained, there is the underlying acceptance of the notion that open flame was the normal (or even the only) medium for warming barrels for section removal.

But is that supposition supported by fact?

--Daniel

"Whatcha' doing?"

"Heating up a pen to take it apart."

"Um... with what?"

"My heat gun. That's it over there, the thing on the table nine feet away."

"Sure is warm in here...."