In October 2006, Omenohana started a topic entitled "Flex nib styles" and about a third of all participants weren't sure of the difference between Spencerian and Copperplate script. There have been several examples of both scripts on this forum, but they are generally difficult to relate to one another as they use different texts and are at different sizes.

This is just a small attempt to make the differences clearer. This piece of writing was all done at the same time with the same pen and nib (Gillott 303) using the same ink and I've tried to keep the swelled strokes to the same degree. The minuscule size is 6mm high and I have made no attempt at more than the basic Majuscule flourishing to highlight the differences.

The two styles have the same common root but are quite different from each other.

Copperplate script, (formerly English Roundhand), is written at 55 degrees from the horizontal and the 19th century Spencerian script is written at 52 degrees.

I hope that this little exercise is helpful in highlighting the differences between the two (The first line is in Spencerian and the second is in Copperplate).

caliken

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Wow. Great penmanship!

Hi Gang,

Caliken - those are great examples.

I would just like to expand upon this a little, and show a few examples from "back in the day".

Proper Spencerian is lightly shaded, both in capitals and smalls. Here is an 1895 exemplar from the Spencer Brothers:

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/spencerian/...dard_index.html

And here is an excellent sample:
http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/spencerian/...ork_page12.html

Notice, too, that the capitals are comparatively simple - no fancy flourishes.

Spencerian was developed in the mid-1800's with a quill. And because it is lightly shaded, is easily executed with either a quill or straight dip-pen (or a flex-nib fountain pen).

When you have ornately flourished, heavily shaded capitals, then your getting more into what we call "Ornamental Penmanship" which essentially is fancy capitals and flourishes, combined with Spencerian lower-case (albeit more of a running-hand version) - like so:

http://www.iampeth.com/artwork/Coulter_OP.jpg
http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/ornamental_...yer_OP_caps.jpg

Ornamental Penmanship developed in the 1880s-1890s, and because of the heavy shades is commonly executed with an oblique penholder and a *very* flexible dip-pen. And because of the shades and the angle of the writing, is very difficult, if not durn near impossible to execute comfortably with a fountain pen.

Hope that helps,

James

Round Hand (using a pointed nib rather than a chiseled one) developed due to the influence of popular penmanship copybooks printed by plate engraving. Writing during the Revolution (American
Round Hand) followed the British Round Hand style. Round Hand could only be written slowly. Then came modified Round Hand and some other variants. Platt Rogers Spencer is given credit for creating the Spencerian system around the time of the Civil War and it lasted until about the end of the 19th Century. Also used during this time was the Modern Vertical system. Spencerian was more slanted, could be written faster and had less flourish than Round Hand. If you really want to have some fun, practice English Secretary Hand--that came before Round Hand.

Romeo... do you know of any sites that have English Secretary Hand exlempars and upper and lower case alphabet sets??

Trevor: I have never consulted any sites. I have the book Pen, Ink & Evidence by Joe Nickell (2000 Oak Knoll Press) which does have some examples of Secretary Hand, Round Hand, Spencerian, and others. But, I'm sure there must be example on the net.

I just googled "secretary hand" (without quotes) and came up with several images... and a couple of exemplars. Google images, not the web pages.

James

Check http://www.english.cam.ac.uk/ceres/ehoc/ and http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/ for secretary hand. In the first link there are some alphabets and a manual, the second link consists of 8 - 9 tutorials and some of them are about secretary hand variations.

thanks for those links and suggestions... why I didn't think of googling for images I don't know... keep on forgetting that one

will check them out now

cheers T

All below is out of my faulty memory. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Looking forward to learning, and re-remembering.

One thing to keep in mind is, that the term Copperplate comes initially from the world of engraving. A metal cutting blade was used to incise grooves into a copper plate, which was then inked and put under a high-pressure press (not the same press as would be used with lead or lead-alloy movable type). The technology involved in metal engraving (the intaglio process, Italian for dug in) had existed as far back as the early 17th century (early 1600s) I think. It was useful for illustrations which involved finer lines than could be efficiently produced on a wood carving or end-block engraving, and therefore was often used on title pages and the like for a frontispiece. But it was mildly more expensive, since the page had to go through a different press than whichever press had printed most of the pages of type, and therefore required that the printer take a second impression, costing more time and requiring greater investment in industrial infrastructure. Higher end.

Consequently, just in subjective terms, a Copperplate script in the more general, non-fountain-pen-world sense, is anything which mimics the script found on such engravings. It would have mild variation between broad and narrow strokes; a capacity for EXTREMELY narrow strokes at the skinny end of the range; and an interest in classy legibility above all else. What the fountain-pen (and dip-pen) people have created out of the general-world definition of Copperplate is a specific type face (font, really, is the proper word). Viz. the fact that your computer probably also has a Copperplate font for use that neither engraves a line in metal nor dips a pen in ink.

By comparison, a Spenserian idea came into existence only under the influence of metal-nibbed dip pens. The existence of the pen, itself, allowed for the development of the stylized script. Therefore, it brings to greatest fruition all possibilities of a flexible nib. It's all about pushing the pen to its limits, while nevertheless remaining tasteful (tasteful? de gustibus non est disputandum) and also quickly performed / produced by a skilled practicioner. The variation between narrow and wide strokes is more free to go crazy; and the presentation is all about flourish within the definition as delineated by pen practicioners.

Those very specific people, living in a very specific era, who thunk up Spenserian on their own, therefore get to define what a Spenserian is or isn't; whereas the development of Copperplate took place over time under a variety of early industrial circumstances, and so will encompass a broader range of styles but also a more narrow range of functions. I might go so far as to say that Copperplate is a precursor to Spenserian, or that Spenserian is a very distant take-off from Copperplate.

Just my thoughts. If you Google "Elizabethan Secretary Hand" you'll get something altogether more bizarre and inexplicable ...