Recently I acquired several small short rods of antique elephant ivory. Actually they are old hanko blanks, pieces intended to be made into Japanese signature seals.

The rods are a little too short to be used for pen barrels, but are just right size for a pen cap. I am just wondering if anyone has any experience working with this material. Is it possible to turn ivory on a lathe to cut threads? I was hoping to take some of my Pelikan and Montblanc caps, remove the clip and trim and replace the resin cap with one of my ivory caps　. I know it is possible...but what am I setting myself up for?

I've been using custom taps and dies over the years to marry old junk parts together to make some interesting pens for myself. For the longest time I have wanted to buy a lathe and jump into the pen turning hobby, and when I came across these old ivory hanko's I couldn't resist grabbing them...but now what do I do?

Any hints, tips or adivce would be greatly appreciated.

Stay Well
Dr. Ron Dutcher
http://www.kamakurapens.com

I would get some antler and see how it handles threads. Use this as a model, and assume that the ivory will behave similar. That's the best advise that I have. Before committing an expensive material, try something cheap that is similar.

By the way....my 2 cents on taps and dies...

You will always be better off cutting internal and external threads on a lathe rather that using taps and dies.

I'm not saying that I don't use taps and dies...I do....but the lathe is much more accuratate and adjustable.

Ron,

The answer, happily, is a most definite yes

If you can check out your libraries for copies of

Hand or Simple TurningPrinciples and Practice , by John Jacob Holtzapffel - ISBN 0-486-26428-9 - Dover Publications.
and
The Principles and Practice of Ornamental or Complex Turning (also by Holtz.) - ISBN 0-486-26567-6 - Dover Publications.

You'll find a ton of information. I wouldn't bother buying them unless you are seriously getting into Ornamental Turning

Ivory takes a thread beautifully (much easier than antler), just needs to be treated with respect

If you need any more info feel free to send me a PM - I could scan some bits if you like & mail them.

Regards,
Ruaidhrí

BTW - be warned, the cap threads are usually multi-start & need just a tiny bit of practice

While I haven't worked with real ivory, I've seen pens made from it and it seems to do fine for threading.

If you have multiple pieces, why not consider not only a cap, but a barrel married with some ebonite to give the length you need. I'll bet you could design something really nice.

Then get the lathe, practice cutting single point threads on various materials, and go at it!

-Bruno

Hey guys,

First let me say thanks for all of the replies. I sincerely appreceiate your taking the time to share your knowledge. I consider myself something of an expert on Japanese pens, but on the subject of pen turning, I am about as green as you can get. Every bit of help is a great help, and I will be as forthcoming as I can be when newbies ask me about Japanese pens.... a good pen Karma thing....

Right now, I am in the jungles of North Okinawa. There is no place to buy a lathe here, and it would be rather expensive to have on shipped here. However after the New Year Holidays, my family will be moving to Shikoku for two years. My wife worked hard all year to save enough money to go back to school. I collect pens....she collects degrees. So for the next two years we will be living near the University. We have already rented a place that has a garage that I can use as a small workshop. My plan is to get a good lathe and start turning some pens of my own. I'll just have to wait a little while before I can use my ivory.

Below I am posting one of my Tap & Die pens. It was a marraige of three junk pens, but taking a part from each pen, I was able to make something not only lovely, but a great writer at the same time. The cap is from a 1930's No name Urushi pen. The barrel is from a 1940's Japanese celluloid eyedropper. I pulled out the plunger and super glued the blind cap to the barrel. The nib unit and filling system is from a 1960's Pilot Super. This has the Switch filler that I like so much.

I agree that Tap and Dies are not a perfect way to make threads, and I look forward to start using a real lathe.

One further question. Are the Micro lathes big enough for pen work? From what I can gather, most people are using the Mini lathes for pen work.

Again, thanks for all the help and tips.

Stay Well
RD

Ron,

Lovely pens - envy is a dreadful thing

Here are a few thoughts:

• Mini-lathes are reasonably OK, but they are just that.
• Lathes are even more addictive than pens! You may probably find that you'll want to do a lot of other stuff when you realise what these damn things are capable of
• Read, read, read (nothing new there!)
• Check out - Lathes.co - almost the Bible of lathes
• Check out - Varmint Al
• Do a quick search on Taige +lathe. The Taige has a big following in mini-lathes
• If you are buying a metal turning lathe, consider also buying something like Bonnie Klein's lathe her site - the lady is a genius!
  Also Carbatec - see one here These are purely wood lathes, but sawdust etc can foul up a metal lathe, so I like to keep things separate where possible.

In my own case I use a Myford Super 7, a Record No. 4, and a Carbatec, all modified to hell and back, but that would be a complete overkill for solely making pens

As before, feel free to email or PM if you need anything.

Regards,
Ruaidhrí

I feel I should post a warning that the ornamental turning books method....and the recommended ( by me ) method of cutting those threads involves a rotating powered cutter....as compared to a single point small lathe system... or even taps...
I am afraid that at some directions in this thin material you could have breaking or splitting problems applying the amount of pressure necessary to cut those threads in the usual manner...
I would sure do a lot of reading and research before addressing your limited supply material.
Note, if you don't to this under a water flow... it is going to really smell up your shop..... LOL
I own a piece I got 35 years ago.... it is very very hard... but in thin section I do not know how strong it is...
Greg

Before dismissing a couple of hundred years of experience, could I suggest a quick look here

Among many others, Bill Jones for example, has been hand chasing threads on ivory for many many years, like his father before him, with no problems whatsoever.
Chasing multi-start threads is a different matter, but given properly honed and set up tools there really isn't any need for worry.

As an aside I might also mention that the same books referred to are literally peppered with references to rotating cutters (check out ECF, HCF, VCF, elliptical cutting frames and so on), so the option has been around, but not felt necessary for threading.

Regards,
Ruaidhrí

Lets talk real world here....here is what went into my warning....

He has a valuable material of limited supply.

If it is really ivory then it is a tooth built up in layers like a tree....

The direction of the cut made from that tooth is unknown to me....

Anything involving growth of an organism is subject to unknown variables like nutrition at the time of growth.

In other words, once you get to a thin section , ivory needs some of the same care and planning applied as one would with wood.

The type of rotating cutter used in the classic ornamental turning lathes produces less pressure than single point cutting or taps either.... because it is basically grinding with a cutter instead of gouging...

Suggesting that he really research it first is hardly dismissing hundreds of years of experience... and I also know that mistakes, broken projects , don't usually get mentioned or have their pictures taken for the purposes of publication...

I suppose that was I was really warning about was assuming that acquiring one of those small lathes without making sure it had the ability to mount a powered cutting unit on it might be a disappointment. A tool post grinder arrangement...

If I made a fountain pen cap out of ivory I would make a metal sleeve to put into it and secure it with some kind of light or white epoxy... as structural reinforcement. I would hate for a simple drop on the floor to take out something that special.

I have a reprint of Holtzapffel's ornamental turning book.... and drool on a regular basis...LOL
Greg

Greg,

That last post of mine was supposed to sound all whimsical & amusing, with a large grain of truth - I hope it didn't come across as offensive!

I have turned bone and antler and threaded both quite handily without a toolpost grinder.
I also have to admit that the first thing I'd do if I were in Ron's happy position, is to stand back and have a long, long think before I dared to put any tool to it


I was lucky enough some years ago to pck up my very own copy of Bergeron - he makes me sick!

Cheers,
R

You did not offend me... but it sounded like I had offended you... my intent was to be very respectful of the very limited resource which he has ...this is not something he can go down to the corner drug store and get a replacement for if it gets broken.... and I know he would feel bad if he broke it due to being new to turning... this is not a good first project.. I had assumed that that was obvious also... but am glad to say it... hands on practice can't be beaten on something they are not making any new ones...
You have said that you regularly hand turn wood threads.... and I take that to be true... but most people can not do that and should not risk good projects trying to learn it on them...

I once owned two elephant tusks.... about 24 lbs and 31 lbs....

Information not likely to be utilized in this lifetime :

If an elephant wanders into your yard and dies of natural causes... get the wood axe out and cut the tusks off... they chop just like wood when green... within a few days a bone saw will be required to cut them...and then later even a bone saw will be a lot of work....
Also, you may want to put your house up for sale... if you are regularly in the path of wandering elephants... or you may want to just abandon your home if you don't get the carcass moved quickly...
Greg

Dear Ron,

sure, cutting threads either on a lathe or with taps and dies is an option.
Look at Viscontis Taj Mahal pens from Ivory.
But keep in mind two facts - Ivory like wood is "working".
And its precious.
And therefore I vividly remember Dante´s (Visconti Owner) sour face over all the
parts lost due to cracks ecc.
I would always recommend a solution like Stefan Fink uses.
See www.stefanfink.de - He produces precious wood pens, but threads and sections are separately made from metal.
And make sure, there is enough gap btween ivory and metal, use a glue that remains a little elastic,
so there is some space for the ivory to grow and shrink while getting hot or humid, or dry or cold.

Best regards
Tom

Thanks Tom, and all of the other posters in this thread. I have been very busy the last several weeks, and I suspect I am going to be even busier the next few weeks, so I haven't been able to spend any effort on turning pens, but this coming April, I should be able to devote some time to make my Ivory pens. I am in no hurry to make these and I am certainly not going to rush into the project. What I am thinking now is to take some of my favorite Pelikan, Montblanc and Pilot pens, and replacing the resin with my ivory. Several of these pens have inner caps and I think it would be safer to glue in these inner caps than cutting new threads into the ivory.

I'll post my experiment notes here once I get started.

Stay Well, Guys

RD

Gentlemen - light your flame throwers...

I think you guys are all swell - but maybe lay off of the Ivory. I understand that it is legal under US law, but that does not make it - - - I'm looking for a word. Actually, I'll but out...

Brent

that's "butt" with two "T"'s thank you...

Here is a site that sheds light on the legality of ivory in Japan, the U.S., and elsewhere:

http://www.hsus.org/about_us/humane_societ...pecies/CITES_20
07/new_research_ivory.html

Any act that contributes to the 'harvesting' of ivory seems, well, let me look for a word too. . . .

Hey guys...

My wife and her cousin raised the animal rights flag at me when I bought my ivory. I rationalized it to them by pointing out that the ivory I acquired came from a hanko carving shopthat was closing. The pieces are antique blanks that were intended to be made into Japanese "hanko" or signature seals. The ivory in question was harvestd over 75 years ago, which I assume was before there were any restrictions.

That argument didn't really wash with my wife either... She asked if I was going to make pens out of our cats next. Then she put on her leather jaket and went to the store to buy some take-out sushi...

Stay Well

RD

RD, Good story.... Politics change over time... I think your only obligation is to make the nicest object out of it that you are able... The existence or use of that ivory is not going to affect the current trade and poaching situation. What would those who object have you do ... throw it away ? How would that help ?
Greg

The argument rages in Africa.
There are those like Richard Leakey, son of Louis and Mary, who would have all confiscated poached ivory burnt, to make it worthless.
There are others who would have it sold legally, and the money used in the conservation of the elephants.

I don't know enough about the situation to come down on one side or the other.

Poachers of elephants, gorillas, rhinos and the like are often shot on sight.

Another thing to consider is unless it is well documented, you may not be able to get your ivory out of Japan or into another country legally. There are a lot of restrictions on controlled material (ivory definitely qualifies.)

This may or may not be a concern for you in the future.

Apart from the legality - and as a retired Customs Enforcement Officer I spent enough time hunting the stuff - no turner with any morals would touch newly harvested (let alone poached) ivory.

Pieces of old ornaments, off-cuts etc. are another matter entirely, and I can see nothing wrong with using them.

Enjoy - he said enviously

Ruaidhrí

First. let me tell you that I am brand new to this forum. I hope I can learn a lot and possibly contribute some. Thanks to those who look after the nuts and bolts.

Second, I have been making and selling ivory pens for over 10 years. Now, that doesn't make me an expert by any definition, but I have had a lot of experience. It is a touchy material. It is harmed more by low humidity that by high temperature. Unfortunately, high temps are usually accompanied by low humidities, like the inside of a car. If subjected to low humidity for very long it will crack. A machined piece of ivory needs to be sealed. The traditional sealer is shellac, but CA is excellent for this purpose. I have had some ivory commercially stabilized, but the results were mixed at best.

Threading can be easily accomplished. I would not want to use a tap and die because of the pressure exerted on the ivory. I suspect it might crack while being worked. However, threading on a lathe with a really sharp tool and very light cuts is not hard at all. But, even if the threading is successful the pen will most likely crack in any kind of use. This is because of the the pressure put on the ivory from tightening the threads. The cap would certainly crack probably on the first tightening.

Someone suggested treaded inserts. He was "right on". Also, with his suggestion of flexible glue to allow for the vastly different vastly different shrinkage and expansion characteristics of ivory and any other material.

On the legalities, elephant ivory harvested and brought to this county before the ban in 1984 can be used for any commercial purpose. It cannot be exported in any form. I had a customer who had a $500.00 pen taken by customs in Los Angeles. He never got it back. All the ivory I use has a government certification number which is the tusk registration with the government. I include this certification with all ivory pens I make and sell. Also, no ivory can be legally imported into this country in any form.

As to the ethical question, obviously I have no opinion, but I obviously use it. I, like others here, cannot see how me not using the ivory that is already here would help the elephant in any way. It does not create a market for poached ivory since we don't use anything but certified tusks.

With that said bear in mind that I replace about 3% of my pens sold due to cracking. It just happens with ivory.

Well, that's what I know about ivory and that's my 2 cent worth. I hope someone can find some value in the comments.

By the way, this is a great forum. Glad to be here.