HELLO"
I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM ANYONE WHO HAS A C/S WITH: "THE UNIVERSAL PEN"
NO.580 ON THE BARREL.
THANKS
KEITH

If you find one let us know. (We'd all be very interested if you posted a picture of your own!)

This 479 Universal:

http://www.ftic.info/Donahaye/ConwayStewar...book/cs479i.htm

appears to be very similar from the description, just a few mm longer.

The 580 Universal as described on Jonathan's site has a diamond clip (does yours?) which I would suggest, may make it a little later than Andy noted. Andy knows much, much more than I do but my reasoning is that for the 479 (like the one in the link) the dates of manufacture are given in Jonathan's site as 1931-50 and even in the 'late' models there are examples of ball clips. From this it would appear that diamond clips came very near the end of the manufacturing period, ie in the 40s. The 475 was also manufactured over a long period and the diamond clip didn't come until the 'late' model starting around 1937 (which of course complies with Andy's late 30s) and into the 40s.

The 55, perhaps one of the last of the peaked cap type designs, came after the war with diamond clips.

This would suggest that the period for diamond clips ranges from very late 30s to the late 40s at least which might mean that they came more commonly from the 40s.

In the end its a little chicken and egg as we are trying to date the pen from its clip assuming the information on pens with certain clips is correct in the first place.

Greg

ps Regarding the 580 Universal, there is something about bandless pens I like. But why did they give it the number 580 when there already was a Dinkie 580??!!

The Dinkie 580 was discontinued quite early, probably around 1924, so it was only a case of re-using the number rather than duplicating it, as happened with a number of other numbers (700, for instance).

We know from the advertising that diamond clips were first introduced on various models in 1935, gradually supplanting the ball end clips, though several models are pictured with ball clips as late as 1939. You shouldn't consider this a 'smooth' transition though, for instance in 1937 the Universal 479 is shown with a ball clip and the Universal 475 has a diamond clip. My own view is that, if ball end clips were used post war, it is only because they were using up the pre-war stocks. The only firm evidence you can really get from clips is that (if of course the clip is original, which is often not the case) a pen with a diamond clip won't be earlier than 1935 and a ball clip pen will probably be earlier than 1946 or so. You also have to consider other dating evidence, such as flat vs. peaked cap ends and barrel inscriptions. Normally when you date a pen, the very best you can hope to do is +/- one or two years anyway unless it has a hallmark!

Andy

Thanks, Andy.

Those brochures are a wonderful source of information. (Wish I had some!)

I came across a site a week or so ago that had for sale copies of scans of old brochures for a number of manufacturers. I can't remember what the site was now but the Wahl and Waterman's brochures were stunning. They didn't have any CS brochures though (US site I believe) but it would be a great resource.

I remember you sent some to me and I loved them. Unfortunately they were lost on work laptop that no longer exists.

Are they published anywhere?

Not published yet, you'll just have to await 'the book'!

I do however have just one set remaining of full size prints of all the advertisements from John O'London between 1928 and 1933 and of the double sided Christmas leaflets of 1930, 1934 and 1937 still for sale! The double sided leaflets have had the images flipped and printed on the same side of the paper for ease of display. The images have also been Photoshopped to remove crease lines, marks, etc. These are all large prints professionally printed on heavy photographic paper so are not cheap, unfortunately! I also still have a few prints for sale of just the famous 'pen fan' portion of the 1937 leaflet (below), which are rather cheaper - but produced to the same high standard! Great Christmas presents .......

Click to view attachment

Andy

Fabulous, Andy.

From this it would seem that the 'new' diamond clips are put onto the better pens, the 'old' ball clips being put onto pens that don't have gold plating for the hardware.

Being CS there can be no rule, so the exception here are the two inkpencils which have the ball clips but gold plated. 1937 clearly being one of the transition years.

Surely this must be marketting intention and CS were not bothering use up an old stock of clips by selling pens with both. I wonder if it was to mark more of a difference between the models - more expensive, more recent additions etc. All guesswork of course.

Greg

It's much more random, I think, if you look at the other leaflets and the other side of this one (which shows sets), there are plenty of gold ball clips as well. I would agree that new models would have been launched with the diamond clips but I would suspect the changeover of established models was fairly chaotic.

Surprisingly, though the style of the Dinkie was suited to taking a clip from 1932 onwards, ball end clips in the Dinkie size are really quite rare, the vast majority are diamond ended.

I'm glad you reminded me about the fan prints - I'll have another go at listing them in the marketplace!

Andy

GENTLEMEN

THANKYOU FOR THE HELP.I DO HAVE THE PEN DESCRIBED BY DONAHAYE-DIAMOND CLIP AND PEAKED DOME TOP AND THE C/S LOGO ON THE CLIP
IT IS VERY STRANGE THAT VINTAGE CONWAY STEWART IN U.K WHICH PROVIDES PICTURES AND DATA ON IOO,S OF MODELS DOES NOT LIST A UNIVERSAL NO.580.
I WILL POST A PICTURE SOON .

THANKS AGAIN
KEITH

It's not at all strange - it's just an uncommon model that presumably neither Jonathan nor David have in their collections - and there are so many models, in so many different variations, it is would be impossible to picture them all. However, if you choose to send Jonathan a picture of your pen (especially with a close up of the barrel inscription) I'm sure he'll be delighted to add it to his site.

Andy

However, if you choose to send Jonathan a picture of your pen (especially with a close up of the barrel inscription) I'm sure he'll be delighted to add it to his site.

Keith, we want pictures!!!

Andy, from your suggestion here can we assume that despite allowing most of his collection to be swallowed in ebay (regrettably none being savoured in my direction - in particular the 45 in 'autumn leaves' - sniff) that Jonathan is maintaining the website? I had also thought to suggest Keith sends a pic to Jonathan but wondered that his interest had moved on to other projects (perhaps insects and temple painting).

As it has served globally it woud be a wonderful resource if he managed a sort of Wiki-CS-pedia with examples from users. It would head toward being exhaustive.


Greg

Last time I was in touch with him (in the summer) he said it was his intention to do another update on the website before too long but I suppose, as his pens dwindle, so may his enthusiasm for such a task!

Jonathan has always encouraged picture contributions from others as can be seen if you look at the acknowledgements that he usually includes with the various pictures. Most sensibly, unlike Wikipedia, he has retained editorial control and does not allow others to edit the information!

Andy

I will try to post some tomorrow AS ts almost 10p.m here in the great white north of Canada.
PLEASE note i am new to this forum and have never posted any pic,s .I see now that one must provide all information available includings pics or it is tough for people to answer your questions.
thanks for the help
Keith

Coincidentally, I have just heard from Jonathan - he has been travelling but (as you will no doubt have seen) he is selling again, and he has promised a website update soon - so now is the time to submit those pictures!

Andy