Hello,

My dad had an old Conway Stewart carelessly left in a drawer in the shed, probably from a house clearing. I had known about it for a while and was sceptical about it as I was rather intimidated by any restoration project, and had thought the pen was in too bad a condition to bother about. But today, I actually went and had a look at it closely for once - and, to my surprise it wasn't half as bad as I had imagined. I thought it was all ink stained, the nib rusted to hell and the clip was missing. But I wiped it down with a cloth and lo-and-behold a rather nice clean pen - and as for the rusty nib I ran the cloth over it and it was all on a sudden a very reflective and bright fine-point Duro gold nib... talk about misjudging it! The gold bands and lever are in perfect condition. I removed the bulk of the withered old sac excepting the remaining part that is shellacked onto the feed. The standard inscription on it is quite legible 'The Conway Stewart No. 58.'

So, now I want to write with it. I am pretty sure the sac is no problem, as I saw them on writetime.com, I would need to know the right size and I think my dad has shellac. And also, I would like to clean the nib completely as I suspect there may be ink in it - do I do this by soaking the feed or the whole section (?) in something or other? The only aesthetic problem is two slight blue ink stains on the barrel - is there anything that might shift it? The cloth took most of it off, but there is one spot about 2mm across just covering part of the 'Conway' 'y' that is visible.

Now, the biggest problem is that it has no clip, that is, the whole thingy that sits on top of or screws into the cap. Does anyone know where or how I might procure one? Or indeed another cap - I assume it was the same clip on all the different colours of 58. Or maybe finding a parts pen would be option. Help?

Any help would be appreciated!

By the way, I was debating whether to post this in the repairs forum, but as it was a cry for help, asking for spare parts, cleaning advice AND because I need specific CS help, I thought it would be best here.

Couple of other things worth mentioning: got a mint condition Waterman 'Clip Cap Ideal' Eyedropper, a big nameless pen with a bloody huge Waterman Ideal flexy nib; an old Platignum that I think must fill by simply opening it up and hand squeezing the sac and a couple of unrescuable pens. My dad swears there were more...

Thanks!
Patrick

EDIT: perhaps I'll get a couple of photos later

Some photos, you can see the lack of clip I am sure... I have been at it with a cotton bud slightly damp and with a little soap all the ink is gone! It's like new... I am surprised how good it looks now. It's all very clean - but I suspect the left tine might be slightly bent at the tip, looking at it through a loupe the one tip is higher than the other, though I won't pass judgement until I get it writing.

Hit the expander bar to see the photos larger.

Thanks for looking!

Thanks for the picture of the CS (looks like a beaut!) but how about some pictures of the rest?

John

Greetings Patrick,

You made this comment: "I removed the bulk of the withered old sac excepting the remaining part that is shellacked onto the feed." You might consider soaking the nib assembly - nib, feed, and section - in room temperature water overnight. By the time you come back to it in the morning, the shellac will have released enough for you to be able to clean the remnants of the ink sac off of the feed. Make certain that you've cleaned as much of it off as you possibly can, even if it means taking 4000 or 6000 mylar to the feed tube. You'll have to do this in order to be able to put on a new ink sac.

You also might want to consider using a high grade shellac. When you purchase your ink sac, and I think that a size 16 will do for this pen, you can get the shellac and maybe some high quality talc at the same time. If this is the only pen you're going to repair, I think you can get away without purchasing a sac spreader.

Take a look at Giovanni's site, Tryphon Enterprises . You'll find all the tools you'll need to repair your pens in one convenient place and get good service.

With regards to the clip, tassie, and tassie crown, I don't think that you will find anyone willing to part with CS 58 parts. You may just bide your time and eventually you'll see a junker that you can pick up on eBay for about 25 -30 GBP.

If you do not have to take your nib out of the nib section, then don't. It appears as if it is OK, but it also appears to be a very fine nib. I don't know if you've dipped it yet to see how it writes - at this point wait until you're finished if you haven't - but you may find it to be a bit scratchy. If that's the case, there are some real nib masters here on this forum. I'd send my pen to them for nib work.

Enjoy the process of restoring your father's fountain pen. Go slow. If you take it one step at a time, you'll end up with a wonderful writing instrument.

Peace,

Phroneo

Hi Patrick,

The parts for your CS58 are really quite easy to come by, sacs can be had from several UK suppliers, Cathedral Pens for one, Ian does Micromesh and a range of tools as well. There are several spares sources in UK for CS bits, Andyr7 who will pass this way a bit later may well have the addresses of the specialist suppliers handy. Eckiethump, who is in Scotland might have a few CS spares about the place, he is always prepared to help if he can a PM to him might turn up trumps.

Please do not soak the entire section in water or anything else, it will possibly discolour badly, it is hard rubber which can turn a ghastly olive drab and dark brown mottled colour, this can be a pain to sort out.

There are a couple of easy ways to clean away the crud build up in the section and on the feed as well as lubricate the feed so that it will move and let you get the nib out. If you don't have the offcut ends of a sac handy then a collar of cellotape wrapped tightly around the nipple where the sac fits makes a waterproof funnel into which you can drip water (or water/ammonia solution at 10%).

The nib and feed will need to be knocked out, if you don't have a knock out block then the top of a ball pen cut off to form a cylinder of a diameter to allow the mib to pass through but also to support the front of the section, all you need to do is gently TAP the back end of the feed using a small tacking or toffee hammer and a suitably sized flat ended drift, a short length of wooden kebab skewer does nicely for CS sections of this size.
If the feed doesn't move easily then back to dripping water through it a few more washes, leave it for a while, maybe an hour to let the liquid really get to work and then try tapping again.

As John says photos of the other pens would be nice, the big no name with the Waterman nib sounds particularly interesting.

Best of luck.

cheers, John

I would suggest completely dismantling the nib, section and feed exactly as John suggests in his excellent advice above, otherwise it will never be properly clean. One word of warning - when knocking the feed out, don't knock too hard, you run the risk of cracking the section if everything is still welded up tight. Better to just use a gentle tap and if it doesn't come clear carry on with the water/ammonia drip for a bit longer. If you don't feel confident doing all this yourself, I would say a 58 in basically good condition is not the pen to learn on, find something cheaper! It shouldn't cost too much if you want to get the pen professionally restored and correctly adjusted.

Despite John's encouraging first words, CS58 clip assemblies are like gold dust and you may find it hard to get someone to part with one. If you buy the sac from Barry at Writetime, he will tell you the correct size of sac and may be able to help with the clip, he restores and sells 58s all the time. Otherwise, for the clip, try mailing 'stylophilist' on ebay or wait till a 'breaker' pen turns up, though there is often serious competition even for these. Not sure about the ink stain - harsh though it may sound, neat bleach works well on casein (again, don't try this on an expensive pen first time round) but I think your 58 is probably celluloid.

An additional plus is that green marble must be the second hardest 58 colour to find (from the 'standard' range, leaving out silver herringbone, etc.), only blue hatched is rarer in my experience of many years '58 watching'! To have the plated parts and nib already in good condition is also important.

Andy

Thanks for your replies! I didn't soak anything, I thought I would wait for advice first, so the section is all okay.

After reading your replies I went to work with that excellent sellotape collar idea, but what I did was seal it off at the top to make a sort of temporary sac, and filled and emptied it gently with water from a syringe. Seem to have worked, after quite while at it, and the nib started letting water through (and blue ink that it was caked with). I'll look into getting the feed out and soaking it later.

I'm going to get a couple sacs (size 18 is what one needs for a 58 according to various references), some micromesh thingies and some new shellac from Cathedral Pens; one thing I might have a hard time locating is some pure talc or a like substitute. But anyway... as to the ink stains, I got them all out with nothing more than a few cotton buds, water, and soap (and perseverance) without any detrimental effect whatsoever.

As for the nib, I certainly am not going to try adjusting anything myself at this stage, but having lightly run the nib (dry) over paper, it feels like it might be okay once I get it inked. If adjustment is needed for flow or for that suspect tine, I simply hope there are nibmeisters in the EU...



You just want me to buy more CSs... don't worry I'm hooked anyway, and thank you for the advice. Now for a couple nice Swans, Burnhams and De La Rues...

Thank you all for the support and the various sources of parts and pens. I'm going to start snooping around the internet for a clip assembly as soon as. There are only 3 58s on eBay at the moment, two are restored with high start prices thus not exactly what I am after, one starts cheap and looks to be in good condition but apparently unrestored - so I'll keep my eye on that too but as you say there may be stiff competition.

I'll try to get photos of the other bits and bobs, but there's nothing too interesting except that really old Waterman eyedropper that is fully working - 'Patented 1899 and 1903' - no idea of the actual date of manufacture though and I suspect it is discoloured although I rather like it like that.







Wow, that's nice to know. Though irrespective of rarity or value etc., I'm going to write with this pen supposing I have to walk to... um Dublin or something to get the clip!

Thanks for all the advice. Now I think I'll have a look at that feed

EDIT: This is my 200th post!

Another post (I'm boosting my post count )...

I get the feed out quite easily, have cleansed the nib and feed and section, all went well. Have reseated it in its original position, but it can be taken out again if need be. So all is going well - just for the sac next.

But again as regards to the clip, I have another question for you Conway Stewart experts, before I start searching and asking around.

Do all #58s share the same clip assembly? Did the red and greens, the early and late #58s all have the same one? Just so I know I am looking for the correct one.

EDIT: Also, was the the clip I am seeking employed on any other CS models, or is a 58 clip a 58 and that's it?

Thanks again,
Patrick

Just to agree with Andy - your first call for a replacement clip should be to email 'Stylophilist' on Ebay - easy to do a search on his name. He has regularly listed nos replacement clips for CS's and has helped me out more than a couple of times - once invaluablely by locating a clip for my cracked ice Esterbrook Relief 3S.

Best of luck.

John

You guys really beat up on me about soaking his nib assembly and for the life of me I can't figure out why. I have a collection of about 95-100 various vintage Conway Stewart fountain pens and I have soaked almost every one of the nib assemblies in room temperature water overnight. It does wonders for loosening and dissolving ancient dried on ink, as well as helping to release old shellac. In fact, I can't think of a better and more non-destructive way to go about cleaning them.

And it's after I've soaked them, when the water has worked its way into the section, feed and nib, that I remove the feed and nib. It's so much easier. And the water does all of the work - sans ammonia. I avoid chemicals if at all possible.

Do the hard rubber sections and feeds discolor? Sometimes, but once again that's not a hard thing to correct. Just use some 6000 - 8000 grit mylar and after 5-minutes it looks better than new. And I've found that only those assemblies that are of suspect quality to begin with are the ones that discolor.

I also did not suggest to Patrick that he remove his nib and feed because of his explanation of his process and descriptions of some items - "thingie" I believe he called the pen cap. It takes experience to re-insert a nib and feed correctly, and one wouldn't think that a CS 58 would be the best place to start learning. If he ruins the nib, he has problems. (No offense, Patrick, I was just taking the safe and conservative side in my recommendations.)

And Patrick, The size 18 sac is too large for the CS 58. Does it fit over the feed? Yes, but it also rests against the inner walls of the body of the pen and that is something one wants to avoid. I have 33 vintage CS 58's and each of them have a size 16 sac. Maybe there is a difference between an American sac size and a UK sac size, but I doubt it. All of my CS 58s write well and hold a good charge of ink. If the ink sac rests against the inner wall of the pen, the heat from your hand transfers to the sac, increasing the heat of the ink, which in turn creates ink drops as one is writing.

The points I was happy to learn about were the rarity of certain color patterns for the CS 58. I would really appreciate being directed to those resources that have researched the topic, Andyr7. I have 6 CS 58 green fountain pens just like Patrick's, along with 3 FP & Pencil sets. I also have about the same in individual pens and sets for the blue hatched CS 58.

I have never seen a resource, of which I have been aware, that has researched this information. And with the many different Conway Stewart pens and sets I have, I would love to be able to study which colors and patterns are more of a rarity than others. Any information you have on that, or where I can find such information, I would most certainly appreciate.

And finally, I should have noticed that you were from the UK, Patrick. I would not have recommended a US distributor of pen repair equipment.

Peace,

Phroneo

I don't think anyone meant offence - views and methods differ, I would have probably soaked it immediately had I not been extremely cautious and wary of making any mistakes. In fact, I still am not averse to soaking it (perhaps not for too long though), because if I had experienced extreme difficulty taking it apart I would have probably resorted to this. As it was, I managed to get the whole thing taken apart and get it cleaned without immersing it in water. There are still some parts of shellac around the nipple, but I will persevere and try not to soak - simply because not immersing it looks less likely to go wrong than immersing it to my inexperiened eyes, and if it did go wrong I'm not equipped to correct it.
So you see, situation and skill also play a part.



No offence taken of course! I am glad you erred on the side of caution and thank you for all your advice. Had I experienced any difficulty, I think I would have sought some professional restorer or such, but as it was I got a shock how easy it is and how simply designed these Conways are. And, I hope I can safely say, I am a quick learner, and this mini restoration project has taught me so much without any mistakes made on my behalf (yet!). And, I have since acquainted myself with some more terminology!

Re-seating the nib was no problem at all, as I noted how far the feed jutted out of the back of the section and the nib and feed came out safely together, and before separating the two I took a good look at how it was set - plus on the feed there is a slight mark, glossier than the rest of the feed, where the bottom of the nib lay on top. After cleaning, I made sure by looking down the front of the nib while reseating the nib that it looked as symmetrical as possible.

On another note, isn't it amazing, when I took the nib off and the feed out, I thought when was the last time the bottom half of the nib last shone in daylight? Perhaps it was in the Conway Stewart factory.



Yes, I read this too, but I saw about two mentions of sac 18 against the one of 16 (or something like that), so I was going to purchase a couple 18s and 16s again to err on the side of caution. But thanks for the further clarification, I think I definitely will try the 16 first.

But, in the end (well, it's not the end yet! ), it was a healthy blend of you kindly people's advice that got me through, and has now infused in me a love of English vintage pens (or one English vintage, to be precise, but I fancy some more).

Thanks again everyone!

Good luck on your project, Patrick. I trust that you'll end up with a wonderful fountain pen. I just love the vintage Conway Stewart products - I like the modern ones, as well, but they're out of my cost range!

I am still very interested in learning of Andy's resource pertaining to the scarcity of certain colors in particular vintage CS model lines. The only place I can think to look is on Jonathan Donahaye's site and, aside from a few comments on herringbone colors, I don't remember him actually going into any depth on the topic. Of course, I could have misread the information.

So Andy, if you would please let me know your resource, I'd love to study this topic more. I've got a fair size collection and knowing that some colors are more scarce that others will help me to better value some of my pens.

Peace,

Phroneo

Phroneo,

I'm afraid I don't have a formal resource other than my own observations over a period of about 8 or 9 years. I used to collect 58s as well back then and so took a keen interest in the auctions, both online and traditional, and sellers, both online and at pen shows, and have found it impossible not to watch these since.

I do however think it is generally agreed by collectors that blue hatched is the most uncommon of the 'standard' colours in the 27/28/58/60 series. In the years I have been watching, I have only seen two or three blue hatched 58s offered in good condition, one of which I bought. When I sold my 58s privately to a dealer friend a couple of years back, its value was roughly 50% more than my cracked ice 58, though it only commanded this price because he was selling on to someone who desperately needed this colour to complete his 58 'set'. The theory is also at least partially backed up in that the Relief 12 is so far unknown in blue hatched, though found in all the other hatched colours. I estimated elsewhere that blue hatched was about 30x less common than any one of the other hatched colours for any given one of these post war models.

The green marble is not quite so rare, though in my view green marble pens in the 27/28/58/60 range are still significantly less common than the red or blue marbles. The only reference Jonathan makes to this is that the 60 is so far completely unknown in green or red marble.

Perversely, if most sellers and buyers are relatively unaware that these colours are rarer than others, the monetary values are (generally) not significantly affected by the rarity! What's more, it can be hard to convince people - and I can tell you are a little sceptical as well!

As I said, this is not 'formal research', it is only my experience of some years of watching the trading of these pens. However I can say with some certainty that if you have about 9 good condition examples of 58s in each of green marble and blue hatched, you possess rather more of both of these than I have seen change hands openly in these last 8 years! Of course whether they are actually worth significantly more than the others is a different matter.


Patrick,

I would certainly agree that it is safer to use a smaller sac rather than one that is so large it is touching the sides of the barrel.

You seem to have made excellent progress so far - one hurdle you may yet have to overcome (the one I find most difficult) is to adjust the closeness of the feed to the nib to ensure the correct ink flow when the pen is re-sacced and ready to go. In practice, you can often get away without doing this - the test for correct flow as suggested by the late Arthur Twydle was that the pen should draw a good line under its own weight when drawn across the paper while resting between your thumb and forefinger.

Good luck with your quest for a clip!

Andy

I got in contact with Steve Hull, and he replied quickly saying "...try and acquire damaged pen to cannibalise and bear in mind that clips from models 24, 27, 28 and 60 should also fit."

This is certainly helpful, it increases the possibilities of finding a clip now!

And Phroneo, I'd love to see a photo of your Conway Stewart collection - although, maybe I had better not see it... it might make me need more...

I'm currently doing a little reading on pen restoration and nibs so I hopefully will get the nib and feed sorted out correctly. Maybe, if I make a little hobby out of this, I'll invest in that pen restoration book everyone raves about!

Andy,

Thank you for your explanation of the colors of CS fountain pens. What you say makes perfect sense to me. And it does help me in my ability to set accurate values for my writing instruments.

Regarding my interest in vintage Conway Stewart fountain pens, in on sense I'm lucky to be here in the USA and in another, not so lucky. (This pertains only to my love for Conway Stewart fountain pens!)

You see, my compatriots don't have any real "history" (from childhood up) with Conway Stewart. They do with Parker, Sheaffer, and Waterman but CS is some "off-brand" to most Americans and therefore not valued as they should be - this is the lucky and not-so-lucky part - for I can and have made many private purchases of CS pens and pencils - a mint, in box, stickers still on CS 58 in grey hatch for $5.00 (I pulled out the original ink sac that had Conway Stewart printed on it.) - and not-so-lucky because I can't sell them here for anywhere near the actual worth of the set.

Oh well. Over time I think folks will begin to realize the real value of these vintage writing instruments. I'm in no hurry to sell them.

Patrick, with regard to pictures of my collection, I would not want to take up the band width here on FPN needed to post them. And my digital camera is being repaired while I'm in the process of building a copy stand. So, I'll show some images when the time comes and when my questions arise. I'm just not one to show an image of my pens to say, "Look what I've just bought." That's great for folks who like to do that. And I enjoy looking at the images, but it's just not me.

Peace,

Phroneo

Hi Phroneo,

As a result of a complete coincidence, a UK seller has just listed a green marble 58 on ebay, item number 150179177606 if anyone is interested. Within the listing, he/she says the following

"This colour and design is quite uncommon - a survey I conducted throughout the whole of 2005 found that only 4% of the model 58s offered on Ebay were of marbled green . By comparison, the very desirable cracked ice model accounted for 8% and the equally desirable tigers eye 5% - both more common than this marbled green."

A fairly small sample but it is nice to know there is at least some basis in my theory after all........!

Andy

Can I add my own theory about soaking sections. I agree this is the easiest and least destructive method and has given me 100% success in easily removing the feed and nib.

Sections appear to be one of the last elements of a pen that made the move from hard rubber to plastic and so many, relatvily late, pens - even with black plastic bodies - have HR sections. Usually soaking HR discolours it and so cannot be easily recommended as a way of removing the feed and nib.

However, I have found this not always to be the case with the section. I have soaked HR sections with no discolouration. I think the reason for this is that the discolouration seems to occur with HR that has already begun the oxidisation process. The section is hidden by the cap and is well fingered in use and so survives without Oxidisation longer. You may have seen old BCHR pens which have turned brown in the body but the section and part of the body protected by the cap remains a nice black. Soaking a section where the oxidisation process has yet to begin (or advance) does not appear to discolour it.

(I have merely got one old BHR pen body wet from a spilt drink of water and it went brown. I immediately rubbed it back to black ok with skin oil but it was very sensitive.)

I have concluded that where I haven't ruined a section by soaking it has been down to more luck than judgement and so I am careful not to soak them any more.

Btw, congrats on your pen, Patrick, keep us informed on its recovery. Of course you should search high and low for its correct clpi etc but don;'t let that stop you putting it to use!


Greg

Without doubting your theory at all, Andy, (as I have zero basis and reason to do so) I wonder that the number of pens of certain patterns that are offered for sale has to do with their desirability too. The Cracked Ice and Tigers Eye patterns are very desirable, command a higher price and so are traded more among the collectors. Less desirable and less rare pens are more likely to sit around for longer as there is less point in selling them.

Perhaps theese other patterns are more commonly offered for sale as opposed to having more common existance.

(I must add that I find the green marble one of the more attractive materials anyway and it certainly seems less common than the blue and red for all models.)


Greg

Just a quick addition; Jonathan makes an alterntive comment here:

http://www.ftic.info/Donahaye/ConwayStewart/csbook/cs58.htm

He has also identified two different green marbles for the CS58.

Wish I had one.

Greg

Hi Greg,

Though Jonathan has a superb website and is a lovely fellow who I respect greatly, it probably isn't the first and won't be the last time that I have disagreed with him (and indeed other CS collectors)! Knowledge is improving all the time and may prove, or disprove, current theories and we should keep an open mind (unlike a certain well known author of highly regarded pen books in the debate about 200 or 2000 floral 22's). Indeed, in light of new evidence, I have just debunked one of my own tentative attributions of traditional colour names from my article in the last WES Journal and will now have to submit a correction! There are other CS 'myths' (reported glibly by each new author of a pen book) that, in my view, also deserve a closer look - if only I had the time.......

Your point about Tiger's eye and Cracked ice pens may be fair but, as well as the overall relative numbers, my own observations also considered the comparison between only the marbled colours - and I think if you just look at 58s you'll find blue marble is many times more common than red marble, let alone green marble. One factor that may not have been taken into account is that different countries prefer different colours traditionally and this may skew reported sightings of various versions of a pen. Another is that some colours survive the ravages of time better than others, so the survivors we see may not reflect the numbers produced.

But of course, ultimately, I may just be proved wrong by someone in possession of hard facts, and will happily admit it!!

Andy

Hello everyone, just a quick update on this mini-project. There has been no luck with the clip.

Got a size 16 sac and shellac and have now installed it. The pen fills very well, but now the nib haunts me. It appears that ever so slightly bent left tine is a major issue, it seems to be choking the flow a bit, can be scratchy and when writing or scribbling with any speed the nib becomes rather dry (and scratchier). It doesn't appear to be anything to do with the feed, as the flow can be quite generous - I have found that the nib is sort of semi-flexible (but only a little) and when carefully flexed the flow is as generous as one could hope for: so the nib is the obstacle here.

So, looks like I'll just store the pen away safely and see if anything comes up. Maybe a parts pen with a good fine Duro nib and a clip will show up - but I won't hold my breath! Perhaps it's time simply to buy a nice condition CS#58 (I see Barry at writetime.co.uk has a nice plain black one for a good price).

In other news, I got myself a black CS #388 filled with Diamine Old English Indigo, which I am enjoying very much. I have discovered my penchant for lever fillers, so I need more...

Patrick

Shame it didn't work out quite as desired, although if you wanted to the nib can be sorted by one of the experts.

Once you've got used to enjoying lever fillers the next step is the button fillers! (Although I can never get them to hold as much)


Greg

Thanks for your post. Yes I do really enjoy these lever fillers, though I'm not sure if this would extend to button fillers, as I have heard of capacity problems etc. etc. but if I see a cheap one going I'll definitely have a pop at it.

When comparing my 388 and the 58 I couldn't help thinking how beautiful the 58 was and the size is perfect. I'll most definitely have to either get this one sorted out or even buy another if I have the money going spare. I see there is a reasonable priced black one at writetime.co.uk but I don't really want yet another black pen, so I might keep my eye open for one of the other marbled types from the recommended CS sellers on eBay (plus, green isn't exactly my favourite colour). Perhaps I should be shoving some money aside when I can to found a fountain pen fund.

Patrick