Over the years I've had a few Blackwing 602 pencils and have never found anything that compares favorably. A distant second for me would be the California Republic Palomino pencil - and I have about 6 dozen of them.

What I want to know is - why can't recent-made pencils match the quality of the Blackwing?

There's an auction on ebay for 10 of the Blackwing pencils - does anyone want to go in for half? I'd be willing to pay $20/pencil for up to five of them. The auction for those interested:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...E:IT&ih=011

Any other pencil suggestions for a Blackwing fan?

Ahhh the Blackwing 602. Wonderful pencil. A Turquoise 4B is a close match. The Blackwing had wax in the formulation and nothing is an exact match. I purchased a gross of these when I heard from a sales rep that they would be limited to stock on hand. Used them all up but 1 box before I realized what they bring. Now I only use them on rare occasions.

Nope, don't want to sell any.

Todd

Okay, someone needs to teach me here, $20 for a wooden pencil? Why? You sharpen it, it goes away. Is it really that good? What makes it different?

All I can say about the Blackwing 602 is that it is like drinking fine wine out of a crystal glass. It is a very special experience, for a lot of subjective reasons.

fsm, I just don't have the money right now - for Blackwing 602's, fine wines or crystal glasses. But if I did I would go in with you.

Is it that much better than the California Republic Palomino? I have some of those and they are truly excellent pencils, but those cost less than $1.00 apiece.

I guess I too am curious what makes one pencil so different.

As more of a fountain pen fanatic, I can talk abut nib smoothness, nib material, ink flow, the "look and feel" of a pen. I just want to try and understand what wound make one pencil so different from another? It seems as though you're only working with two components: the wood and the graphite.

Do these pencils hold a better point? Stay sharper? Write smoother? Write darker?
And are you using them for writing, sketching, drafting, or something else?

Please don't take anything the wrong way, I'm just genuinely curious.



Thanks, Ralph

The Blackwing was indeed an amazing pencil. Not even the Palomino can compare. It was the pencil of choice for many great American authors, including Thomas Wolfe and John Steinbeck. Its mere design, with the crimped, removeable eraser, was breathtaking. I do not understand why Sanford (who owns the rights to this pencil nowadays) does not bring out a new version: with the demand for the pencil being so high, the company would surely make a fortune by bringing it back. Apparently, the one machine in existence that crimped the erasers broke down; it is hard to believe that in our day in age such a thing cannot be fixed or rebuilt. I would even venture to say that the Blackwing would make a succesful comback even with a normal eraser, so long as its thick barrel and the satin-like lead remained faithful to the original. Oh, yes, and the barrel would have to keep the pencil's famous logo: "Half the Pressure, Twice the Speed!"

Hi All,

Confessing my ignorance here too - along with an eagerness to learn.

Is the incorporation of wax in pencil lead an obsolete or "vintage" practice? I'm looking up at a printout of a 1930s Sheaffer advertisement offering a free pack of Sheaffer pencil leads with each ink purchase, and the ad copy begins: "By working a special wax into every stick, Sheaffer makes Blue Cap leads black as a crow, smooth as oil, non-smudging, long-lasting, strong!" Are current formulations really that different?

I do use a fair amount of vintage lead in my mechanical pencils - largely because it's sometimes easier/cheaper to buy vintage 1.1mm leads than it is to locate new 1.1mm leads - and I do find it, for the most part, agreeably smooth-writing and dark. That said, I'm currently using Pentel 0.9mm "Ain" leads in 2B grade, as well as 2mm Sanford Turquoise 6B, and I find those just about as dark and smooth as the vintage stuff.

If anyone happens to know: what hardness grade is the Blackwing?

Cheers,

Jon

Okay still wanting to learn and pardon the ignorance, but why is it such an amazing pencil?

I can't speak for the wonders of the 602, but I can say that when it comes to colored lead, the colors of the vintage leadsare a lot more vibrant.

A couple of years ago, I found a couple of NOS tins of Sheaffer Fineline red leads, 1.1mm width, that dated back to the 1950s. The red on these leads are almost magenta in color -- really bright red -- compared to the Pentel 0.5, O.7 and 0.9 mm colored leads I use in more modern MPs.

The Norma 1.1mm leads for their four-color pencils, circa 1940-1950, have a similar brightness to them. They are softer than the Pentels, which lead me to believe there might be wax in the Sheaffer and Norma colored leads.

Even the old Scripto 1.1mm long leads for their pencils seem smoother than a plain old modern wood pencil.

Given the lousy state of wooden pencils these days, you can see why the 602s are so in demand. Between the cheapness of the wood and the brittleness of the lead in many modern pencils, you have to look really hard for a good pencil.

I'm sure pencilrevolution has some info about the Blackwing 602. try searching for "pencil revolution" in google. I've never used a blackwing myself so I wouldn't know what the fuss is all about (even though I've heard others gush about the Blackwing 602..calling it the high chieftan of all pencils etc).

What made the Blackwing amazing was a combination of stunning design and a lead that put down a soft, dark line, yet which did not cvrumble or smear. It was useful for drawing but also great for writing, and composers used it to write their notes on scores. The Palomino is SO soft that it needs sharpening every other word, making it more of draftsperson's pencil than a writer's. Design-wise, I can only compare the beauty of the barrel and of the unique eraser to those other classics of American design, the Sheaffer Snorkel and the Parker 51. It is definitely a pencil that should be manufactured again.

I have the Palomino, but no black wing. I think there are differences in pencils, just as they are in pens. That's why I have a variety of both writing instruments, including pencil sharpeners. Pencil Revolution is a great site for information regarding the Black Wing and pencil related info. Beware, you might get addicted to pencils, too.

Great I learn there are specialized pencils and a pencil website, my wife and bank account are going to kill me.

Seriously, thanks for the information, I do want to learn.

From what I learned on Pencil Revolution (which has not been active for a very long time, by the way), and from other sites and discussion boards, Blackwing 602 fans are like fans of the (insert brand name here) fountain pens. Their fanatical love of the pencil has less to do with reason and features than with their emotional response to the experience of using that particular pencil. We all have similar obsessions. The chief reasons cited for loving the Blackwing 602 always include the blackness of the line and the smoothness of the lead. From what I gather, artists probably had/have a particular attachment to the 602, and will pay almost any price for one.

It's probably just as well that Blackwing 602s are not readily available. If they were, at least one or two people here would try them, find fault with them, and pooh-pooh the product. Others would say that the quality had definitely slipped in the modern production, and you just can't compare a Blackwing 602 produced after 1990 to those of the golden years. Then there would be bloodshed and angry posts and flame wars. Don't we have enough of that in our discussions of (insert brand name here) pens?

R.I.P., Blackwing 602.

I guess I'm missing something here.

The 602 (other than the very large eraser) looks like just about every other pencil (polygonal body, wood, lead inside).
It can't be the looks.

There are dozens of "art pencils" for sale in many many colors, including shades of black, that cost up to $2 each.

Do none of these current pencils write as smoothly, or with as dark a line, or hold point as well?

If you love it you love it! I'm just trying to understand why.

The crimped eraser, which was removable, gave the Blackwing a unique look. I also loved the motto engraved on the barrel. But above all, it was a workhorse pencil with the smoothest lead that I have ever tried. Of all the pencils that are available today, only the Japanese Tombow comes close, and perhaps a small but very old brand still made in Tennessee called Musgrave. The Palomino HB is great but more for drawing than for writing.

Bill may be right that we would always find a new version of the Blackwing inferior to the old---and the way Papermate has cheapened the Black Warrior and Mirado pencils, that's easily possible-- but I still would love to see it available again (just no Papermate hearts on the barrel, PLEASE!) I don't think that I would ever use any other pencil again.

All,

For the true story about the Blackwing 602 pencil visit here..

They really are one of the best pencils ever made. I'm not sure they are worth $20-25 each but I haven't started selling the few I have left. I have also decided I will not sharpen any more for a while.

I know the sales rep for Sanford pretty well. They get lots of requests for Blackwing 602 pencils and there are NO plans to make them again. There were plans at one time to issue a pencil with the same formulation of graphite, clay and wax but it was determined there was not enough interest unless they resurrected the eraser as well.

Todd

Todd, do you really buy their story that the crimping machine cannot be restored? It seems terribly short-sighted of Sanford/Papermate not to see the potential profit in resurrecting the Blackwing: if there are so many people willing to pay outrageous prices for old stock, just imagine how a new, reasonably priced version would sell. I don't believe that these pencils are merely being collected: writers, composers and artists really use them. There is a need for this pencil. If it were available again, even as a boutique pencil, slightly more expensive than other Sanford/Papermate lines, it would still prove successful and well worth rebuilding that crimping machine.

I can't speak for other Blackwing fans, but these pencils are just a pleasure to write with. They are very, very smooth. You can write so quickly with them, and for so long without fatigue. It's effortless. It feels like you are using a well-tuned fountain pen, on smooth plastic paper. It leaves a solid line with only the pressure from gravity.

I have some nice fountain pens - two very nice Pelikan M600's which I love, many Parker 51's, a Namiki Falcon, and a few others. I prefer the Blackwing pencil to them all for writing anything more than a few pages. And I prefer pen. It's just that I don't think of the Blackwing as a pencil. It's something different.

If I were rich, I'd buy the lot of 10 Blackwings on ebay and give each of those here interested in them one to try.

I would be very interested to hear what someone who hasn't heard of the Blackwing thinks after trying one. Their allure may be mostly psychological.

The Palomino is just as good if you're not writing for a long time. They do go dull very quick. I sharpen about 10 of them when I'm writing in pencil, whereas with the Blackwing, I'd sharpen just a few. But that may be because I consciously conserve my Blackwings. And write them down to a nub.

With a $30 pencil, you sharpen *very* carefully.

FSM, you are absolutely right. The Blackwing is more like a fountain pen than a traditional pencil (not to be confused, however, with the dreadful NOBLOT pencil, which claims to be a pot of ink in a pencil...). As a writing tool, the Blackwing is in the same league as Pelikan, Faber-Castell, Parker 51 and the other quality pens. It is truly unfortunate that Sanford/Papermate chooses not to listen to the many customers who are begging for the return of this superb instrument.

If I understand the history correctly, the machine was broken when the product line was taken over by Sanford. The equipment was sold for scrap and they continued selling them until they ran out of parts. The Blackwing wasn't the only pencil that used the square eraser, just the last one in production that did.

Doug Martin of www.pencilpages.com has directly spoken with the folks at the factory and I got the story from him first hand.

I know a number of artists that use them until they are short little stubs. There is a demand but it must not be enough to remake them. The Turquoise 4B is very very close. The addition of the wax makes the writing smooth and dark. If what the rep here tells me, that was also a problem and the main difference now is the reduced wax content of the graphite blend.

Just for fun I worked the crossword last night with a blackwing. Still a good pencil.

Bottom line, products come and go. I suppose compared to sales of the standard #2 Ticonderoga it just wasn't worth it. I guess one could compare a common FP to the clic bic. Economy of scale with the ball points just won out.

Todd

In my opinion, the Turquoise is a vastly less interesting pencil and does not have the smooth feel or line of the Blackwing. Its barrel is thinner and lacks the Blackwing's tactile quality. It actually surprises me that the Turquoise is still being produced. If there is sufficient demand to justify continued production of a pencil as mediocre as the Turquoise, surely there is enough to justify the rebirth of the Blackwing, a pencil that every artist, writer and composer yearns to have. I'd bet that the Turquoise could die quietly and few would raise a furor like they have at the demise of the Blackwing. I believe everything that you are saying, Todd, and I appreciate it, but I just can't help feeling that Sanford/Papermate are missing a wonderful opportunity here.

I've heard of these pencils before, never had one. I do not think that I'll be spending $20 for a wood cased pencil any time soon.

I will, however, partake of the special that Staples is running this week:

Dixon® #2 yellow pencils
1¢
8/PACK
Valid Aug 26 - Sep 1

One eighth of a cent for a pencil. Yeah. that's more my speed. As if I need more wood case pencils! I like pencils almost as much as I like fountain pens. I spent some time writing almost exclusively with pencils. And they were vintage pencils, all right. I was using Mongol 482s from the '50s or earlier. And those old pencils are definitely superior to the new ones. I have, shall we say, more pencils than I will ever live long enough to use.


Too late for me! A soft lead pencil on a sheet of paper that's on a clip board is really something I like. Not quite as good as a fountain pen on the reverse of a page that I've already written on, but a ssensuous pleasure indeed .

Back seven or eight years ago, I read about the famous Blackwing in the Petroski book ("The Pencil"). I went to my local stationery store (remember when we had those?) and ordered six boxes. I think I paid 5 or 6 bucks for each box.

Around that time they went out of production, so I just held on to my remaining boxes. A few years later I sold the five boxes I had left to a designer for about $275! And he was happy to pay it. I loved the pencils, but he loved them a lot more than I did. They were a great-writing pencil, but the erasers were worthless: hard as brick and besides, you can use any eraser you want on a Blackwing mark and it will smear horribly.

It's sad to see what has become of the high-quality general writing pencil. My favorite Ticonderogas all seem to be Hecho en Mexico today, and it shows--look at the quality of the paint on the pencil and ferrule. I'll switch back to the Black Warrior, a classy-looking pencil still made in the US. I stopped using them when PaperMate put the goofy hearts on them, but I think those are gone now. (I also have five boxes left of vintage USA-made Mongols that I like using. Don't buy the Mongols made in the Phillipines; they are nowhere near the quality of the old ones made in the US.)



You get what you pay for. Made in China.

Good luck with your penciling,
Don

I don't want to bash any country's products in general.

But if the super duper $20/each pencil has a "worthless" eraser and erasing the Blackwing mark will cause it to "smear horribly", exactly what do you get for your $20?

It sounds to me like the 1/8¢/each pencil is a far better value.

Maybe the price break is a $1/each pencil ....

Beats me. That's why I was selling them. They are ONLY pencils, fer cryin' out loud.

Rationality flies out the window when an item becomes scarce or unavailable. Savvy salespeople use this "scarcity principle" all the time. What I find amusing is that the guy who will pay you $20 each would have laughed in your face had you offered the same pencils to him for a buck each, five minutes before the news got out that Sanford was no longer making them.

AHA!! That's why they've been discontinued. Someone high-ranking at Sanford has a stockpile of Blackwings and is selling them for a huge profit under an intricate web of aliases. Once this stockpile is depleted, Sanford will start production again.

The last time that I checked, the ugly Papermate hearts were still on the barrel of the Black Warrior. I'm glad to hear that this has changed. I will be on the lookout for the "heartless" version. As for the Ticonderoga, I thought that it was still made in the USA. The Philipine Mongols may not be as great as the vintage American ones of the 1950's, but they do write a nice dark line, especially the no.1.

$20 for one Blackwing really is excessive, but I repeat, it is an unbeatable writing tool. Let's keep the pressure on Sanford/Papermate and maybe...just maybe...they'll listen.

As someone who used Blackwings in the 1990s before they went out of production, I agree with Adair that we Blackwing fans should lobby Sanford to make them again. Personally, I would be happy to have it even if it had no eraser at all.

Until that happens, I am very pleased with the California Republic Palomino 2B. I have bought and tested a number of other pencils for comparison:

California Republic Palomino B & HB
Tombow 2558 HB
Tombow Mono J 3B & 4B
Mitsubishi Uni-Star 2B & 3B
Staedtler Mars Lumograph 100 2B & 4B
Sanford Turquoise 02268 (375) 4B
Koh-I-Noor Hardtmuth Toison D'Or 1900 4B
Sanford Design Ebony 14420
Sanford Noblot Ink Pencil 705

For me, the Palomino 2B is the winner in this field, with the Staedtler Mars Lumograph 100 4B as a close runner-up. The Staedtler 4B feels very similar to the Palomino, and sometimes it seems like it has a slightly smoother lead.

I would be interested in opinions from others who are searching for a pencil to approach the Blackwing.

If you're still in the testing mode, try the Musgrave 100 Test Scoring Pencil (http://www.pencilthings.com/servlet/Detail?no=278)

You wouldn't love a pencil with a name like "Hardtmuth Toison D'Or 1900"?

Thanks for your recommendation. I'm going to buy a dozen of those Musgrave 100's next time I place an order with PencilThings.com.

Your recommendation reminds me of another pencil recommendation from my past. I'm a composer, and about 15 years ago I asked a colleague of mine to recommend a good pencil for scoring music. He told me I should buy the IBM Electrographic, which I believe was an electronic scoring pencil like the Musgrave 100. I bought one and liked it, and then a few years later I bought 6 Blackwing 602's, which I liked even better.

I think I heard somewhere that Musgrave made the Electrographics for IBM, and that the Musgrave 100 is essentially the same pencil, just has a different paint job. Don't quote me, though.

I've been very pleased with the green-barreled Musgrave pencils, which are not available in stores but only through Pencil Things (or direct from the company if you are an institution). They must be one of the oldest lines of pencils still in existence in the USA (dating from the early 1900's, I think). In their green paint and lovely gold printing, they stand up nicely to the Faber-Castell 9000 and the Mitsubishi pencils, and can be had with or without erasers. If only the Blackwing had belonged to a company like Musgrave, one that really cares about and conserves its well-crafted products.

I have spent a long time and a bit of money looking for an "in production" pencil that approximates the writing quality of the Blackwing. The Tombow -Mono 100 3B and 4B and the softer Palominos come the closest IMHO.


Unfortunately I understand that the Mono-100 was discontinued in about December 2005 in favour of the "Professional", which although marketed by at least one on-line stationer as being the same pencil, is a much scratchier writer and clearly uses different wood casing. The Palominos write very very well but the colour schemes don't grab me.


As for the high price and perceived uniquiness of the Blackwing, my assessment is that just as in golf there will only ever be one Jack Nicklaus regardless of the later achievements of other golfers, Blackwings have, through their associations with historic writers and artists and many positive rants on page such as the late and very lamented" Pencil Revolution" , achieved their position as "Best Pencil Ever".

Interestingly I have never read an adverse comment about the Blackwing's writing qualities. Whether that arises from their truly excellent quality or the fact that no one wants to admit that thay have paid $25+ for a dud pencil I don't know. I find them better than any pencil I have ever used and use them nearly every day at work and home .And yes I have accumulated a stash which I treasure.

Well, what can we do to persuade Sanford/Papermate to resume production? Any ideas?

Not always.


Yeah, maybe. Or else India or Indonesia. The latter was making Staples pencils for quite a while. I'll see where the Dixons are being made these days. The old Dixon I have in front of me was made in the U.S.A. I saw during a recent STaples visit that the Ticonderogas are made either in Mexico or China these days, I forget which. But I don't plan on eating the paint off any of them.


Well thanks! I sure do have plenty of them .

Ticonderogas made in Mexico or China? A world has been lost...

I believe that General's Pencils are still made in Jersey City, New Jersey, with supervision by a German pencil master who once worked for Faber-Castell. General's Cedar Pointe pencils are truly wonderful. And Musgraves, of course, are still made in Shelby, Tennessee.

I have heard a lot of good things about the Cedar Pointe and Musgrave's test scoring pencils. The only problem with the Cedar Pointe and the Musgrave pencils is that you have to buy them online and pay shipping.

I think I'll go to Blick Art Supply later today and try the Staedtler Mars Luminograph 3b and 4b.

Edit: I really like the way the black Ticonderogas look, but those HBs are just not satisfying to write with..

Yes, it is too bad that General's and Musgrave suffer from such limited distribution. They are the last makers of well-crafted American pencils. Perhaps if you buy them in bulk you can save a bit on shipping, long-term.

Actually, I wasn't that impressed with the American made Ticonderogas.


I've been meaning to look into General Pencils. I sort of would like to see if I could get some of their #1 pencils. You've reminded me of that. Thanks.

I've been interested in the Cedar Pointe for a long time (ever since I read Humdog's post on pencil revolution) but the only source of Cedar Pointe pencils I can find is DickBlick.com, and their shipping charges just tick me off...a pack of pencils $2.39, shipping $7.95 (minimum)

The same goes for the Musgraves and Forest Choice (which is also supposedly a good pencil).

Buying in bulk unfortunately is not an option cuz there's only so many I can use.

Try going to General's own website (check Google). Their shipping charges might be lower. Also, they hav a whole range of other pencils that rarely reach the stores. For the Musgrave, try PencilThings.com, which offers fairly reasonable shipping rates. Beware: PencilThings is a pencil-lover's paradise! They even sell the elusive Rhodia pencil...

Just a thought:
If these are available in the store, maybe someone here can ship it to you for less?

For the Cedar Pointe, see if you can call the store and order by phone. Then negotiate the shipping charge. If they won't do it, cancel the order and you haven't lost anything.

Musgraves and Forest Choice are available at Pencil Things. Don will not charge you $7.95 for shipping a pack of pencils. I believe he tells you on his site what to do if you are only ordering one item in order to keep the e-commerce software he uses from charging you the full amount. And if not, email him. He's fast to respond, and a good person to deal with. He might even know a way to get you the Cedar Pointes.

I wish that were possible. I checked the Blick in downtown chicago and had them call all the Blicks in Chicagoland...none of them have any stock of said pencils (they all suggested buying online). Besides how can I keep asking someone anytime I want to buy something..? Somehow depending on someone to ship me a box everytime I need it does not sound appealing to me.

I will try General's website like Adiar suggested. But I think I may end up settling for Staedtler's 3B/4B just cuz they are locally available (at Blick's brick and mortar store).

Do check the General's site as well as PencilThings. Don at PencilThings is the epitome of great customer service! And if you live in or near New Jersey, visit the General's factory in Jersey City! It is fascinating and fun.

Thanks Bill, Lloyd and Adair. I will certainly look into your suggestions. Your help is appreciated.