Sorry to pimp my own blog, but it's already written.

http://splicer.com/2007/05/15/meet-the-par...ot-parkers-yet/

The upshot is that it seems pretty final: we'll never see Rotring pens again, and if we do, they'll be Parker branded. Best case scenario seems to be that we in the US will still be able to get Rotrings from Europe, but I don't know how long that will last.

Sanford took a brand with unique market niche and threw it away. It just bugs me. Sure, I've used better writers than Rotrings, but rarely have I found a better sketcher. The writing was on the wall (har har) when Sanford took over Rotring and discontinued the 700 and kept the lesser 600.

Well, the brand will still be around, but likely only on Rapidographs and ArtPens. I personally would have thought that those would go first. Aren't I the only person on Earth who still uses Rapidographs?

I don't have any more to say but I want to keep typing. It's just shock and denial and sadness. Yes, I've been hearing about it for months just like everyone else, but having made the phone calls I hoped that I'd hear some encouraging shred of news.

Hi Splicer,

If it is any comfort to you, you are not the last or the only person who still uses Rapidographs or even Tintenkulis and Altros for sketching, I still use them and you are right Rotring Fps are good for sketching too, I have a couple of them for the same reason.

Cheers, John

So may I know anyone use isogragh pens? (from rotring)

Do mp me anyone interested.

Splicer,

Thank you for this information. It is very sad to see a once venerable brand slowly die. I have always wanted to try a Rotring. Fountain Pen Hospital has the Initial on clearance, so I ordered one.

Lisa

I don't use them myself, but they're the same basic design as the Rapidograph. They are just like the Koh-I-Noor (and everyone else's) rapidographs and don't have the cartridge fill system that the Rotring Rapidographs do. I've been using Rapidographs for longer than I care to admit, so if you have questions I might be able to help.

Isographs came first, I'm pretty certain. They were certainly the first generic drafting pen I ever noticed, identical in concept to to the Faber Castell TG-1 and the Staedler (spelling?) Mars pens, and probably loads of others I never heard of. Rapidographs were introduced as a student pen I think, when professional's started to use pen plotters.

When my local Staples store stopped stocking Isographs and sold them off at 50%off, I bought one of every size they had 0.18 through 0.9. I haven't inked them yet though...

It is an absolute travesty that Rotring are dying; will I ever see one of those cool yellow rulers again?

ABP

I think I have a set of TG-1s around here somewhere, in pretty good shape. Haven't used them in over ten years or longer and hadn't thought about them until I saw your note. Are TG-1s the kind of pen that people in graphic arts would want? I always liked them, but never had any idea whether they were highly regarded by anyone but me.

Sort of. The Rapidograph was introduced in 1953 as what we fountain-pen people would call an eyedropper-filler. That pen is almost identical to what all the other manufacturers call Rapidographs today. In 1983, Rotring switched to capillary disposable cartridges in the Rapidograph, and started calling the refillables "Isograph." So the Isograph design predates the Rotring Rapidograph design, but the Rapidograph name came first. Also, other manufacturers make Rapidographs with the same design as the Isograph and still call them Rapidograph.



I don't think that Rotring is disappearing entirely, just from the fountain pen world. I think even the ArtPen will continue as a Rotring product, but it's only speculation on my part. I didn't ask the Sanford rep directly about any particular products.

Splicer,

I was 13 in 1983, so that would explain my ignorance; thanks for the info. I have noticed that Rotring seems to be being downgraded in all areas to a sort of school stationery range. I guess it was bound to happen to some of the companies who were primarily known for draughting office equipment, but I had hoped that the move into fountain pens proper would keep the name alive...seems I was wrong.

Bill,

I used TG-1's while I was at University and at my first job, where we didn't have CAD. I thought the pens were excellent, although Rotring will always be my "first love"

Cheers,

ABP

Tks for all the informative answer here, I don't use that but was offer by a seller as a lots to the pen I needed. there they are lying around. Would $100 a just for 8 pen with some funny hook or attachment and many rulers, refills?

Do pm me if interested. Tks

And the Rapidographs were just a modification of the original stylograph, which goes back to the original Cross and McKinnon designs in 1874 (?). I have a 1920s BHR lever-filler Inkograph stylo, which is fabulous, and an older JuCo eyedropper, which needs some wire help.

John

Indeed it is very sad. My first fountain pen was a Rotring 600 (the old type), I bought it about 15 years ago and it still is like new. I have also a Rotring 400 and an Esprit mini, I bought the former 10 years ago, while the last was a gift of my wife (together with the pencil and the BP), both are good writers. The Rotring have been my pens of choice after my study, the only ones that was not cheap rollerballs.
When I began to collect FP three months and some money ago), Rotring was the brand I looked first, but I was very disappointed by their current range of products (the horrible core, the skynn, etc.). The only pen that I could presently buy is the Initial, maybe I should effectively buy one, before it is too late .

Fortunately it seems that my 600 will resist other 20 years, I have only to take another in stainless steel with fine nib (the one that I have is in black).

Genny

now THAT's an engineer's deskset!

Hi,

Hmm..genny, nice calculator--I use a HP 49G+

Rotring made good pens when they did. Quite reliable and consistent in quality. I used to have an 800, an Artpen, and a pair of tikky mechanical pencils. Right now, all that's left is a Tri-pencil.

Dillon

As it happens with pens, at this point I found myself using very few time a calculator at work, with a computer always on is very simple to perform also simple calculations with matlab

Genny

I agree with brands that go away..some marketing genius somewhere doesnt give too muc creedence to the Rotring name. Ive never even had one or written with one.

Well, the modern ones are, for lack of a better description, kind of German Techno Engineertype bluntly post bauhaus and unattractive to most of the buying public. They have their loyal supporters, hence this thread, but after having a 600 BP/MP set for over a year I am pretty sure I wouldn't buy another. They work fine, but they are just so unattractive and there are so many other more attractive writing instruments out there.

If you are really serious about this stuff you can write the CEO at Newell Rubbermaid. They are the ones who can bring them back.

Actually, as far as I'm aware the eyedropper-filled-cartridge rapidographs are a more modern invention. Rotring started with the Tintenkuli as a lever-filler (briefly) and then a piston filler. The 1953 version that introduced the Rapidograph name was a piston filler as was the Koh-i-noor American version that appeared at about the same time. Koh-i-noor switched to dropper-filled cartridges with thinner, non-tapered barrels in the mid-70s; i'm not sure when the Rotring version switched to those, or when they started using the capillary cartridges.

I could be completely wrong. I'm trying to research a definitive history of Rapidographs and it appears I'm going to need German language lessons and a time machine to get to the bottom of it.

I also draw with Rapidographs - I've been using the piston fillers lately because they have better ergonomics than the modern versions, and have the benefit of a built-in starting and cleaning system.

See also:

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=30724

BTW, Splicer, I read your article and spent a couple of hours reading the rest of your blog! Nice work.

Thanks mmoncur!

Interesting. I know I was going on incomplete information. I thought it was strange that I was unable to find more historical information about the Rapidographs and had been thinking about doing some real actual research instead of just googling, as I had been.

If you've done a lot of work on the research already and I'm a johnny-come-lately, I'll back away, but I'm guessing we could do more good pooling our efforts. Seems we're on similar paths.

Now you've got me thinking about finding some old piston-fillers. I've been using eyedropper-fillers (Koh-I-Noor or for all practical purposes Rotring's New Jersey office) my whole career.

I'll be putting up a new blog this week, hopefully, and I'll post my information (so far) there - it comes mostly from googling and from buying stuff on eBay. so I haven't done what I'd call a lot of work. I'll be glad of any help in adding to the info once I put it up.

The Koh-i-noor piston fillers are definitely very nice - compared to the dropper fillers, they are more comfortable to use, better looking, easier to fill (assuming you don't mind dipping pens into bottles of ink), easier to start (they start instantly since the ink was filled through the tip), easier to clean (just fill with water or pen cleaner and eject)...

If you hang around eBay you can get them for about $10, although some sizes are harder to find (.25 is the one I use the most and I've only found two so far.) About half of the ones I've found work fine after a cleaning; the rest needed some lubrication on the piston and a new tip. The modern koh-i-noor tips work fine with the old piston-filler pens, although they don't look quite as good. (Thus, you can have any size you want, but I like my color codes to match...)

I just received a Rotring piston-filler I ordered - it has a more modern design, and is possibly dated 1976.

Back to the thread's original topic... I'm going to miss Rotring's FPs too. An old-style #600 was one of the first pens I bought when I started my FP hobby last year, and now I have the new-style "Newton" one too... I've even been tempted to pick up some of the ghastly Cores before they disappear.

Actually, it is the design of the old style 600 fountain pen which attracted me to it and continues to attract me, despite it writing a touch dry. True, the rest of the Rotring range doesn't come close to the 600 in my opinion (except maybe the 700 and I found the Artpen to have fantastic feel and balance) but the 600 is the antithesis to the kind of bad design that is not uncommon in the world of fountain pens. I find the design of many fountain pens tacky, ostentatious and anachronistic. The 600, I guess, also looks a little out of date but it is of a style that I am very partial to. Perhaps it is all just a matter of taste. I hope I am not in the minority here because I am a design student and will be (hopefully) inflicting my aesthetics upon the world in the near future.

I love the way the 600s look and feel in the hand. But then, I have no idea what "bluntly post bauhaus" means!

Back again,

Has anyone got a link to some pictures of all these different types of drafting pens? I feel like someone who had only glimpsed the top of an iceburg...

I agree about the 600's. I loved the look of them, and bought a BP/MP pair a few years ago. However, I almost hated using them; I found them too thin in the grip area and too heavy to use for very long. I even tried "improving" them by putting some rubber tube over the grips to thicken them up, but it just looked naff. For those reasons I never bought the FP, even though I'd love to complete the set, I can't see the point in buying something just to look at it (unless it's a picture, naturally ).

Antony

I am so sick of the world's corporate philosophy and what they are doing to not only pen companies but to the world market place in general.

I started out as a pen enthusiast with Parker's and Sheaffers and rapidographs were part of my basic line up of pens before I could afford to get into the higher end lines of pens.

I have every one of the Rotring series of sketch pens. They were a wonderful stepping stone to my collection today. They sit on my work table and are used anytime I need to do calligraphy work. They were gifts I gave to friends starting out as calligraphers.

I won't buy a new Parker, Waterman or Sheaffer today. I don't trust them. I will just have to treasure the ones I currently have. Made before all this rigamarole started.

I will be sad to see the Rotrings go the way of the Dodo Bird. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do-Do_Bird)

It's really happening. Parker is swallowing Rotring:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=110160010663 (not my auction, just has pics)
http://parkerpen.com/en/discovery/product/esprit

OK, they aren't quite the same pen, but they do share a name and some unique characteristics.

Of course it is a PARKER "ROTRING" pen!!

hmm - although shops selling "art materials" are disappearing anyway from British high streets it still seems very easy to get Rotring pens here, even the specialist Rapidograph/Isographs and from normal on-line office supplies places...

I'm fairly sure I very recently saw a Rotring art pen in WH Smiths in my town!

I can see how this is a shame for the Americans, but I think its just "brand positioning" caused by the forces of the free market, and probably shaped by the demand from the larger stationery/office supplies stores..

I've noticed its a lot harder to get the lower-cost Waterman pens in England compared to American sources - also not seen as many dealers of the Pilot models apart from the Birdie...

As an aside, some older design successes tend to endure despite so-called "technological progress" as they are picked up by younger generations. A case in point is the Technics 1200SL/1210SL Mark II vinyl turntable which is a design as old as I am (from 1972) but is still produced today because whilst originally intended as "hi-fi" deck it was constructed in such a way as to make it ideal for DJ'ing styles of disco music and other electronic dance music...

I think Isographs/rapidographs are still very popular with designers, artists and illustrators here in Europe, and not all engineers immediately turn to CAD for "sketching" etc.. Some of my more artistic younger friends, who put on discos, have returned to hand-drawn flyers as well as computer artwork, perhaps they will become interested in different kinds of pens rather than the biros or gel pens they currently use for this..

The Art Pen, Isographs and Rapidographs are all part of a different distribution channel. They're considered to be "art supplies." While Rotring has some name recognition in the fine pen world, they are the recognized name in technical pens. I don't think that the ArtPen or any of the technical pens will disappear, and I don't think that Rotring is going out of business. They're just going out of the "fine pens" business. Art supply stores here in the US can still get the ArtPen, but stores haven't been able to order other pens in some time.

Rotring doesn't even appear on Sanford's or Newell's websites any more, even under the "list of brands we own" that's longer than your arm.

I believe that Sanford saw Rotring as being a competitor to Parker.

Side note since you mentioned the Birdie: in the US, we can't get Birdies? If you want one, you have to get it from the UK. I sent my Birdie to Pilot USA for a repair, expecting to have to pay for it... they called me to tell me that they would try, but that they might not be able to get a replacement nib at all! (They did get one, and it's only costing me a total of US$15)

Anyway, I'll see what information I can dig up about the Rotring transition. It would be nice to know more.

Hi,

What many don't know is that Rotring was cut into two when it was sold. The drawing section with the Artpens, Rapidographs and such was sold to Chartpak, so I actually can order them in if you need them. The other side with the writing instruments was sold to Sanford.

Dillon

curioser and curiouser.. definitely looks like Europe is going to be the main market for Rotring fountain pens..

www.rotring.de still appears active and shows a fairly wide product range including various fountain pens.

The site looks like its been updated as a bit of a rush job (complete with a large Sanford logo added to the top, and links to other Sanford brands in a sidebar - including the US corporate site!) and as you might expect much of it links back to the Sanford site and/or eventually dumps you there (with some dodgy frame coding sometimes)

Both the German and English versions appear to provide a similar product list under "Hochwertiges Schreiben"

There are some very modern/"Teutonic" designed looking pens as would expect here, but I'm not sure if these are old or new products. They seem to be pitched at the low-end/mid market level alongside Parker and Waterman, at least here in Europe/UK (I did find places selling the cheaper Waterman pens but not seen any reviews of these)

http://www.sanfordb2b.de/de/Produkte/Rotring.aspx

(please excuse any mistakes in my interpretation of what I have found here, I have let my German get slightly rusty )

is sanford the starbucks of the pen world? sensa has one foot in the grave too. maybe its time for a boycott.

t

I don't know what is to be done, but there is a bully in the pen world. I really hate this idea of taking the original design of Rotring and rebrand it. Why not build on the history of Rotring instead of killing the brand?
Maybe we should send a few letters, write a couple of articles about how corporations can kill something people truly appreciate. I own 7 Rotring FP and I'm angry at Sanford.

Samovar

What a complete shame. When I was in University I picked up a few Rotring 600 (old style) ballpoints and .5 pencils. As an Engineering student I appreciated the almost indestructable nature of them! I am shocked that they have been sold down the drain. I hope Pelikan never sells out. sigh.....

Pelikan is Malaysian-owned for some years now. But they seem to respect what they bought, so no reason to complain.

this doesn't surprise me. My extended family are from Malaysia and like many other SE Asian nations (Singapore, Phillipines) they still value both good handwriting skills and good pens.

I think there is some on-line store from Malaysia which did so well they even had the money to set up a bricks-and-mortar (or concrete-and-metal) retail store in Kuala Lumpur!

ok- so here i am with a load of rapidographs that i used in college. they are replacement cartridge one- and i find that it is next to impossible to get new cartridges.
question- can i refill the used cartridges with the koh-i-noor ultra draw or the universal ink? as if i had the now available kohinoor rapidographs that refill with a bottle of ink? or am i stuck?
btw- whats the diff between the ultradraw and the universal inks?
jesss

I don't know if you would want to use the Koh-i-noor ink, but you can refill the cartridges ONLY IF you have a syringe or thin tube you can run the ink through. There is a protective flap that closes once you remove the tip from the cartridge, so a syringe should be long enough to get past the flap. Otherwise the ink will go nowhere except on your hands.

You've just killed me....you're kidding!. Man, how can this be.... what a world....

Hi all,

I was just thinking about starting a thread about this very subject the other day... obviously I'm not the only one who is outraged by what Sanford is doing here. I have always regarded Rotring writing and drawing instruments very highly. Yes, the brand has its critics, especially amongst those who prefer the more traditional or ostentatious school of pen design, but I have always admired Rotring's designs. I love my Rotring pens - always will. Over the past couple of years, I have been buying up NOS examples of as many of their pens as I can lay my hands on. 600s, 900s, Initials, Side-Knock pencils... you name it, I've been buying them. I knew the writing was on the wall for Rotring - Sanford just have no idea what the brand stands for, how to market that brand, or who to try and aim that marketing at. It's very sad.

I have seen the Parker versions of several Rotring designs here in Europe, and they just don't cut it. They look cheaply made (and probably are). I certainly won't be buying any of that stuff, Sanford. You're even putting me off buying Parkers in future.

Thankfully, I've been able to buy some of these wonderful Rotring pens before they disappear. I'm also confident that they will last a lifetime, thanks to their bulletproof build quality. I KNOW FOR A FACT that my Rotring 600s will still be here when other more expensive (and so called 'better' pens) have long since cracked, split, melted or shattered.

Thanks Sanford, you guys ain't got a clue.

Bernie.

I think that you should be able to refill a cartridge, but I wouldn't recommend it. The advantage of the cartridges is not the convenience, as with ink cartridges in fountain pens, but rather that the air helix is built in to the ink cartridge. If you keep on using those cartridges, eventually they will get clogged up and they'll be nearly impossible to clean. Also, the ink in the cartridges is a different formula than the ultradraw or the universal inks.

Universal and Rapidraw are both fast-drying inks. Ultradraw is a slower-drying ink intended for newbies who leave the caps off their rapidgraphs. I've never noticed a difference in the blackness or durability of the universal or ultradraw inks, but to tell the truth I don't think I've really compared.

Where do you live? You should be able to get hold of those cartridges. I can get them in at least two B&M stores here in San Francisco, and there are lots of places online that carry them. Dillo here on FPN will probably sell them to you. In the UK, CultPens.com has them, too.




Not to nitpick, but I don't believe that Sanford has management independent of Newell/Rubbermaid. It's an acquired 'brand' like Rotring; it just is the one that Newell/Rubbermaid uses as an umbrella for all their graphic arts stuff.

And I concur. Newell/Rubbermaid has killed three great pen companies. Two of them just haven't died yet. If Newell/Rubbermaid has their way, fountain pen use in the US will be a thing of the past. Parker and Waterman are now far too short-sighted and self-destructive to last.

Splicer,

Sadly, I think you are most probably right.

Bernie.

Yes, the poor quality and cheapness of most modern Parkers and Watermans have turned me off of them completely, except for a few vintage models. What a huge difference between what they produced then vs now. I don't see Parker or Waterman lasting much longer.

The only companies that will still be around that still make somewhat inspiring models with interesting variety and a little bit of "vintage spirit" are Pelikan and Sailor, and maybe one or two Mont Blanc models.

Its a sad day to see Rotring go, I'll be honest in saying i don't own a Rotring, but judging from all the good things said about them, they were one of the few "greats" still left. R.I.P Rotring

Rotring have been part of my adult life for the past 40+ years so it's sad to see the brand go

I used Rapidographs in the main together with pencils & felt tips. Never used a Rotring Fountain pen or seen one in the flesh. To be honest I preferred using Faber Castell for Technical Drawing pens but I still have a grand collection of red with a few black barrels. I was a late starter on CAD drawing so for the past 8 years I don't think I've inked up any tech pen. I suppose the computer & CAD is a lot to blame for Pen Manuf's demise.

The saviour in this is within People adopting an Anti Throwaway policy ~ which is the reason for my current & refound interest in Fountain Pens.

Just to clarify, it's my understanding that the Rapidographs and Isographs will continue under the Rotring name, as will the ArtPen, Rotring's compasses, and so on.

I don't see the ArtPen on Rotring's site, but Chartpak lists the Rotring ArtPen as one of its products. So the ArtPen may be associated with Koh-I-Noor rather than Newell/Rubbermaid.

Understood ... I was really bemoaning that manuf's (technical pens in particular) are becoming vulnerable & may possibly vanish from sight for ever

The quality & precision required of the nibs is paramount & needs to be much more consistant than for other pens.

Hi~ I just have bought rOtring 600 FP.
It's so awesome...
My rOtring 600 is w-germany made, silver and EFnib.
But I have a problem.
My 600 nib is not symmetrical.
(It's 5:5 iridium nib but pair of one is little lifted)


But it's very terrific pen... isn't it?
I'm using that equipped with rotring cartridge, and I'll buy coverter.

(I'm not very good in English, so help me! I'm korean )

Yeah... I don't like Sanford. It spoils any stationery company.
...Damn Sanford!!!

I have rotring 600 FP, too.

I have in a very short time acquired a lot of rotring pens. My wife thinks I am mad. I bought a rotring 600 mechanical pencil and I have a fountain pen which looks very similar
but doesn't have the knurled grip. I also bought 6 old piston filler rapidographs from the 50s 2 are brand new in their boxes with blotting paper and instructions (no I am not selling them)

I also bought a set of 8 rotring variants (also in their original box and packaging and never used) and about 20 odd old used variants micronorms variographs. laong with a load of lettering stencils. Germany is a good source if you love the Rotring variant as much as I do.

But a lot of Germans are allergic to paypal for some reason so it can be a pain paying them on eBay. I should add that I am a graphic designer and have an obsessive love for the rotring

My question is does anyone out there know the difference between the variograph, the micronorm, and variant

Dang, that HP48g and Rotring 600 look right at home with eachother.

Can't wait 'til I find a Rotring 600 old style for a good price- they seem to go for $100-200 on eBay, but I've seen them come through at the Marketplace here for $50. But always, always I'm not as quick as I need to be.

Aaron