There have been several threads about the Namiki Vanishing point pen and usually there surfaces a discussion about the location of the clip and a person's preference for the pen.

So here is a poll- do you not like the VP because of the clip location makes it uncomfortable or difficult tyo write with.

i picked up a lamy vista since i wanted one, and the style of the grip would indicate to me if i would have a problem with the VP clip placement. it works just fine with my grip, so i cant wait to get a VP.

the only reason i dont have one yet is money. im currently saving my pennies.

I got one at a bargain price and thought I'd sell it. Instead, I made the mistake of using it a day... then another...

Ron

Doesn't bother me a bit. Neither do the ears on the Lamy 2k.

I have one, so I can't vote. The clip location has never been a problem for me, even when a lot of people were complaining about it before I decided to buy. I decided to buy it not because of the clip but because of the one-hand single-click action and the novel concept behind it.

Not to seem like a jerk (can't help myself), but does "No" mean the clip position doesn't bother you, or that you don't have a Vanishing Point for some other reason?

Doug

I have an old-style VP, a new-style and now a Decimo. The new style clip is a bit obtrusive, and I greatly prefer the low profile clip of the Decimo.
Best, greg

The clip position didn't bother me at all when I tried a VP at the store. It's more the bulk and length of it that bothers me. I think the proportions and weight of the Decimo will suit me better.

I was confused by the question myself. I voted NO because I own a VP and the clip dosen't bother me.



Bob

I didn't understand the question either, so I didn't participate in the poll. I own a VP and I like it quite a bit, but wish the clip could be moved or removed.

I agree it is a confusing question.

Since the clip IS the reason I do not own a VP, I voted yes.

But I saw diffents kinds of people answering "no": those that actually OWN a VP might say "no". but those that do NOT own a VP for non-clip reasons might answer "no".

Therefore, it will be difficult to draw conclusions from this poll.

Having read all the reviews and threads about the VP and its clip position, I was hesitant to buy one. But I ordered a VP anyway because of the rave reviews about its writing prowess, and I haven't looked back since. In fact, I loved writing with the VP so much that I ordered a Decimo as well. The Decimo fits more comfortably in my hand, and it has become one of my favorite writers. But I still enjoy using the VP, and it remains in my regular rotation along side the Decimo.

I wish the clip was "built-in" to the metal piece at the front of the pen. I seem to recall there being an older model like this. It'd also be fine if the clip was moved up more. I have drawn a picture of my comparison. My "new" one is slightly uncomfortable, but not too much where I would not want to use it. I think it would be more comfortable if the metal end piece where the clip is located were to be fused, like in the "old" picture below. Maybe I am the only one who feels this way...maybe not!

~~K~~

The question seems quite straightforward to me. It's directed at people who don't own a VP. Why don't they own one - is it because of the clip position?

Yes - that's right, I don't own one because of the clip position.
No - that's not the reason I don't own one.

Clear now?

Obviously it is NOT clear, because Bobioden has already posted that he voted NO although he OWNS a VP. HDoug also posted that he felt the wording is confusing.

You say that "it's directed at people who don't own a VP," and that's probably true, but it doesn't say so in the poll. Therefore, people like Bobioden will participate in the poll even though they may own a VP, thus confusing the results.

Although I interpret the poll as you do, I believe it is a poorly worded question and the fact that Bobioden (and possibly others) participated despite owning a VP shows how confusing the wording is.

It is the responsibility of the poster/poll generator to make the wording as clear as possible.

I like VP very much (my last purchased pen - ten days ago)
the position of the clip forces me to hold the pen correctly.

I do own a VP and I don't mind the clip position. I voted "No".

The topic title clearly states: 'I don't own a VP because...'

Well, not to pound this thing into the ground, but I also answered "No" in response to "I don't own a VP..." because I own one. I do appreciate the pollster's attempt at finding out how much the clip location has to do with not owning a VP, but the current poll results are probably suspect unless we accept that an overwhelming proportion of people who don't own a VP aren't bothered by the clip location and don't like something else about it.

I think Pilot knows that the clip location is a major inhibitor to wider sales because the designs of the more recent Decimo and Fermo (click for my review) both attempt to minimize the intrusion of the clip. But I also think that the VP/Capless line is one of their hot sellers because of the varieties they make available. (Has anyone seen this "marble" finish VP?)

Since there may be a sizable number of folk who would buy a VP (or several) if only the clip were less intrusive, I'm thinking we may see a VP with either some kind of "retractable" clip (that retracted as the nib extended) or allowed the user to rotate it out of the way (kind like the Parker 75 rotating nib idea). That's interesting to contemplate, no?

Anyway, let's all be friends. No need starting wars on Memorial Day...

Doug

Not quite sure why you felt the need to say that, Doug - there was no unfriendly or war-like intent in either of my responses.

And I don't mean to be hostile/starting a fight either. But I still strongly disagree with your interpretation of a "no" response. The fact that posters who OWN VPs have answered "no" supports my contention in how it can be interpreted.

And, as I stated, the interpretation of the question will affect the usefulness of the poll results.

In fact, although you and I have interpreted the intent of question to be aimed at non-VP owners, from a purely Logic/Rhetoric standpoint, VP owners SHOULD answer "no". The question is in a format, "are you a member of x specific group". (In this case, x = non-VP owners who did not buy because of the clip.) ALL non-group members would therefore answer "no."

Try another similary-worded poll: "I am a Republican because I am favor of invading Iraq". a)yes b)no
From a classical logical standpoint, both Republicans who joined for tax cuts and Democrats would answer "no".

I won't vote because I have one too.

That being said, I haven't found the clip to be a bother at all.

The thing that bothers me the most about most FP's is the thread for the cap, which is a problem the VP doesn't suffer from.

I guess the perfect way that this poll should have been written would be.

Have you ever tried writing with a vanishing point pen and did not like the position of the clip so you flung it violently away from you sticking it in a ceiling tile and swore never to pick one up again or you have purchased a vanishing point pen and over time found that the location of the clip caused such irritation of your grip that again you visualized flinging the pen far away from you but instead sold it to purchase a pen that you prefer or you own a VP and find that the clip location is not to your liking such that the pen has been used sparingly and you continue to rue the day that you purchased it but don't feel the need to sell it right now because you saw how the price of these pens went up then they changed the style so you keep it tucked away only to sell for a profit.


best,


Kurt

There should have been a "N/A" choice as well -- meaning, "I own a VP and the clip does NOT bother me." There might be some who own one where it does bother them, but they either put up with it or don't use it (though still possess it). Either that, or an explicit statement saying "If you own a VP, don't vote. This is for prospective buyers only." Part of the problem is that the subtitle is not really prominent. And it looks like there might have been a lot of people not reading the post thoroughly and voted "NO", meaning that the clip didn't stop them from buying it. Guilty as charged.

Kurt, you sound really annoyed... it's just a poll.

EDIT: I have to admit that when I came back to the thread, I looked at the subtitle and yes it clearly says "I don't own a VP because..." The trouble is that the thread title is very prominent and because it isn't specific about ownership, it's easy to get the mind going on participating and overlook the subtitle. It also depends on the state of mind. If you're tired after reading a bunch of threads, it's easy to get lazy and miss the subtitle, jumping right for the poll.

Col - just because the title says what it says does not mean that it is directed at people who do not own the pen. It seems to me that it is directed at all who have eyes to read and a mouse button to respond.

I own a VP and I responded no. I responded no because "I don't own a VP because of the Clip location" is a false statement as applied to me.

So complicated... I LOVE my old black Namiki and the clip is fine for my writing style. I voted no. I'd post a picture if I had one. The old style really appeals to me.

actually, I like the clip location

I like the clip location too. I use this design of pen daily and it feels natural and dare I say it ergonomic.

... So I voted No.

I am lucky enough to have a bunch of them, VP's/Capless and Decimo's
but don't like the design and feel ( Hold/grasp) of the Fermo ( Go figure ! )

I do not not own a VP, and the reason is not because of the clip. I am actually considering picking one up.

I tested one out at my B&M store the other day. I am lefthanded, and the clip forces me to hold the nib in the proper position (a bit like the Lamy Safari/Al-Star/Vista).

I own eight VP's and am awaiting the arrival of a Decimo from Tokyo. The clip position does not bother me. I actually believe it helps me to hold the pen in the correct position for writing. I started with VP's in the mid 90's with the model of that time. When the design and size changed to the larger rounded barrel I was disappointed with it, but it did not prevent me from buying the carbonese, the 2003 Limited Mandarin yellow, and more recently a red and gold accent model. I have also acquired the silver Fermo and am now awaiting its delivery from Ujuku.

I would think that people who have a poor or improper writing style and WANT to work on correcting it by learning the correct way to hold a fountain pen would WANT to buy a VP to help them out. The clip forces one to hold the pen in the proper manner so as not to be creating a conflict with the pens use.

I voted NO in the poll.

Happy Day!

I can see that as being true. Unfortunately, I DO have a proper writing grip, but the clip does still irritate me. Fat fingers and all... I sold my VP because of the clip. My problem is I'll end up with another VP at some point hoping that magically it won't bother me, it will still bother me (of course), so I'll sell it, and the process will start again. It's amazing that I know myself so well, and yet it will still happen. It's just such a darned convenient pen!

I see we have the large industrial brush out to tar everyone who doesn't have your pen grip has a poor or improper one

I think it's a load of fetid dingoes kidneys that the VP gripping requirements produce the only correct and proper one.

Your grip is correct to you and my grip is correct to me please don't tell me that I have an improper writing style and the VP will magically correct it.

I've been holding pens for a few years ( might be decades ) now and if you check with the people I snail with produce a clear and pleasant looking writing.


Kurt

I have also found that the Decimo's thinner clip profile allows me to use my proper grip comfortably and write legibly

Indeed. Worthy of envy, even!

I have two old models and the clip is in the perfect position. Don't know why they tampered with a good thing.

I voted "no" meaning the position of the clip does not put me off buying one. At the moment only money prevents me from buying one; I've just sold my P51 to help fund my first Capless. The more I think about it, the more a retractable fountain pen appeals. I generally don't post my pens so there is always the problem of what to do with the cap, and sometimes I'm on the phone and need to jot down a note. Or I drop the cap or I mislay it beneath some paper. Anyway the Capless seems to fit my needs.

I didn't vote as I understood the question to be pointed at non-owners, or perhaps even ex-owners.

I have three VPs and I use one every day to write my journal. What makes them even better is a customised nib.

I have a 1973 Pilot Capless (Aluminum/Stainless model) and I do not even notice the clip. Maybe the newer ones are different.

I've had both the old and new style as well a decimo. It comes down to grip and preference, I hold my one finger at an angle so it hits the side of the clip rather thanthe barrel. An issue for me but not for many.

Kurt

This was an interesting read! Some of this discussion reminded me of committee meetings I have had the misfortune to attend, in which so much time was spent discussing the discussion and arguing about the arguments that absolutely nothing was accomplished.

I voted yes, because as much as I want to like the VP style pens the clip is intrusive upon my proper grip. I have previously heard and discounted the "if you cannot comfortably use a VP you hold your pen wrong" line. I may not hold a pen the way some purists do, but it is comfortable and my handwriting does not suffer. I have no desire to live in a world where there are only two options--right or wrong--on every issue.

I only have my VP for a few days but i like it more than i thought i would like it. The clip is there, i feel it but it doesn't really bother me, actually it helps me to hold the pen in the "right" position. The only thing i don't like about this pen is that i like it so much that i want more VP's in all those nice colours...i would like a yellow one and a black one and a green one and..even an orange one if i can find it and afford it.

I have 2 VPs and a Fermo and I'm probably going to get about 300 more. Love them! The clip was never an issue.

I have a VP as my first real FP, The clip is not an issue at all. It helps center the tip for me. I plan to get a few more pens in the next year as I learn more about them.

For an everyday pen I'm very happy with the VP.

My VP is my very favorite pen. The clip placement doesn't bother me at all. I'd like to get myself another one or ten at some point.

Well I have taken the plunge and got a VP. Thanks to misterh for all his help on this! It really is a super pen. So I wasn't put off by the clip placement. It took only a minute or two to get used to. I'm beginning to see why people rave about them.

The design and positioning of the clip is one of its highlights and I think it's a wonderful idea.

I liked where the clip is as it tells me where to hold the pen to start writing. I used it every day for a while and the push button is a great convenience feature. It is my first serious fountain pen. The only reason I use something different is variety.

I had all sorts of problems with this poll....sorta like a double negative. I have a VP, love it and the clip is absolutely no bother. Great pen!

Cheers,

Bill J