The Fountain Pen Network > CS Bad Design?

wspohn

Mar 2 2007, 04:12 PM

So on just about every other pen I can think of that has a screw on cap, the barrel carries external threads for the cap and internal threading for the section. Seems logical, right?

But CS has a better idea (not!).

On some pens they thread the section to mate with the barrel, but also machine external threading to mate with the cap. What is the result of this you ask?

It means that once in awhile when you go to unscrew the cap, the barrel unscrews from the section instead and you get the section sticking out of and still threaded into, the cap. So then you have to screw the barrel in more firmly, hoping you will then be able to unscrew the cap. But of course when you reef the barrel in, it also tightens the cap on the section resulting an a reductio ad absurdum and possibly a hunt for some needle nose pliers, a notably bad idea in terms of maintaining an uninjured pen.

Noticed this on my Francis Drake and thought how easily they could have avoided such design stupidity. Does anyone know why they would do such a thing - was it following an old (and still faulty, IMO) design on other models?

You may figure this is a tempest in a teapot, but you haven't gone to refill your CS and been left staring at the little rat tail of a converter sticking out of the section still firmly attached to the cap....

Can you think of other makes that did this (I expect there may be some)?

saintsimon

Mar 4 2007, 06:45 PM

Thanks for the hint, Bill. Which models of modern CS pens feature this brilliant design?

A threading like this allways stops me from buying a pen.

wspohn

Mar 4 2007, 07:20 PM

All I know is that my Francis Drake has this. Isuspect that you run the risk of gettiong this in any 100 model with a metal section, but perhaps Mary Burke will see this and can give us chapter and verse on which models have this design.

Just seemed a bit silly when you don't need to do this.

Ron Z

Mar 4 2007, 09:23 PM

I don't know. I always heard that British sports cars were a bit quirky, with weird electrical systems that were prone to failure, or engines that had to be tinkered with all of the time. Maybe this is another manifestation of the same fine tradition?

wspohn

Mar 4 2007, 10:04 PM

QUOTE (Ron Z @ Mar 4 2007, 02:23 PM)

I don't know. I always heard that British sports cars were a bit quirky, with weird electrical systems that were prone to failure, or engines that had to be tinkered with all of the time. Maybe this is another manifestation of the same fine tradition?

As a guy with 6 British cars, that's hitting below the belt. As a guy with one Italian car, I can say that Marelli is no better than Lucas.....

kenneth cooke

Mar 5 2007, 10:07 PM

QUOTE (wspohn @ Mar 2 2007, 04:12 PM)

So on just about every other pen I can think of that has a screw on cap, the barrel carries external threads for the cap and internal threading for the section. Seems logical, right?

But CS has a better idea (not!).

On some pens they thread the section to mate with the barrel, but also machine external threading to mate with the cap. What is the result of this you ask?

It means that once in awhile when you go to unscrew the cap, the barrel unscrews from the section instead and you get the section sticking out of and still threaded into, the cap. So then you have to screw the barrel in more firmly, hoping you will then be able to unscrew the cap. But of course when you reef the barrel in, it also tightens the cap on the section resulting an a reductio ad absurdum and possibly a hunt for some needle nose pliers, a notably bad idea in terms of maintaining an uninjured pen.

Noticed this on my Francis Drake and thought how easily they could have avoided such design stupidity. Does anyone know why they would do such a thing - was it following an old (and still faulty, IMO) design on other models?

You may figure this is a tempest in a teapot, but you haven't gone to refill your CS and been left staring at the little rat tail of a converter sticking out of the section still firmly attached to the cap....

Can you think of other makes that did this (I expect there may be some)?

Good job they offer a 100 years guarantee- there's always one and I know that because it used to be me- get over it

HDoug

Mar 5 2007, 10:44 PM

QUOTE (Ron Z @ Mar 4 2007, 11:23 AM)

I don't know. I always heard that British sports cars were a bit quirky, with weird electrical systems that were prone to failure, or engines that had to be tinkered with all of the time. Maybe this is another manifestation of the same fine tradition?

I used to have a British sports car -- an Austin Healey Sprite, and indeed it was "quirky." And that's when it ran. I now have a Miata, a Japanese "British" sports car and it has none of those endearing quirks. Which means that when I turn the key, it runs. Can also put the top up and down without getting out of the driver's seat.

The thing about the threads on the CS is really funny -- it makes sense, but it's funny.

Doug

P.S. At one time, British cars used two different size of bolts, metric, and Whitworth (I think). You needed two sets of wrenches which most people didn't which meant that you ended up with a lot of rounded bolts and skinned knuckles. That too is funny.

parilla

Mar 6 2007, 05:05 AM

It wasn't metric and Whitworth...it was S.A.E. (fine thread) and Whitworth (coarse thread). Two differing requirements for threads and a totally logical response to those needs.

HDoug

Mar 6 2007, 06:06 AM

QUOTE (parilla @ Mar 5 2007, 07:05 PM)

It wasn't metric and Whitworth...it was S.A.E. (fine thread) and Whitworth (coarse thread). Two differing requirements for threads and a totally logical response to those needs.

Of course it's logical. That's why I said it made sense. Just like putting the cap threads on the section instead of the barrel. I'm sure Stephen Hawking has no problem figuring it out -- it's just that some of us are a bit dim.

Doug

Blorgy

Mar 6 2007, 06:20 AM

QUOTE (wspohn @ Mar 2 2007, 04:12 PM)

So on just about every other pen I can think of that has a screw on cap, the barrel carries external threads for the cap and internal threading for the section. Seems logical, right?
But CS has a better idea (not!). On some pens they thread the section to mate with the barrel, but also machine external threading to mate with the cap.
It means that once in awhile when you go to unscrew the cap, the barrel unscrews from the section instead and you get the section sticking out of and still threaded into, the cap. So then you have to screw the barrel in more firmly, hoping you will then be able to unscrew the cap. But of course when you reef the barrel in, it also tightens the cap on the section resulting an a reductio ad absurdum and possibly a hunt for some needle nose pliers, a notably bad idea in terms of maintaining an uninjured pen.
Can you think of other makes that did this (I expect there may be some)?

Many contemporary manufacturers put the threads on the section. It is a common fault now, but was rare in the past. For example, my large Omas Paragon (piston filler) has threads on the section. When I unscrew the cap from the section, an undesirable torsional force is applied to the junction of the section and the barrel.

andyr7

Mar 6 2007, 08:44 AM

QUOTE

At one time, British cars used two different size of bolts, metric, and Whitworth (I think). You needed two sets of wrenches which most people didn't which meant that you ended up with a lot of rounded bolts and skinned knuckles.

Slightly off the original topic I know, Doug, but what you needed was a Metrinch socket set! Because the sockets are designed to drive against the face of the hexagon rather than the corners they will work with pretty much anything.

Andy

HDoug

Mar 6 2007, 09:28 AM

QUOTE (andyr7 @ Mar 5 2007, 10:44 PM)

QUOTE

At one time, British cars used two different size of bolts, metric, and Whitworth (I think). You needed two sets of wrenches which most people didn't which meant that you ended up with a lot of rounded bolts and skinned knuckles.

Slightly off the original topic I know, Doug, but what you needed was a Metrinch socket set! Because the sockets are designed to drive against the face of the hexagon rather than the corners they will work with pretty much anything.

Andy

Now you tell me! Maybe that's what Bill needs for his Francis Drake.

But while you're here, maybe you can help me think this through. Putting cap threads on the part of the section that itself unscrews seems like a bad thing. Is it actually a good thing, or is it an unavoidable thing? And if it's unavoidable, how is it that some other manufacturers of (cheap, shoddy, affordable) fountain pens have managed to avoid it?

I know you're a vintage CS guy. Do vintage CS pens have this "feature"? Or do I have my thinking cap screwed on too tightly?

Doug

andyr7

Mar 6 2007, 10:17 AM

QUOTE

Maybe that's what Bill needs for his Francis Drake.

Personally, my tool of choice would be a hefty lump hammer if I'd paid a lot of money for a pen that has this 'feature'!

As far as I know, no vintage CS pen has the cap engaging on a threaded section, even though the vast majority of vintage CS sections are just a friction fit and the method may have worked rather better. It does not seem a sensible arrangement if the section is threaded into the barrel.

I think this may be a consequence of having pens designed by people who are primarily artists or jewellers, rather than engineers.

The other possibility is that it minimises the total number of machining operations on a pen hence keeping the manufacturing cost down (ie a pen designed by accountants)!

Andy

twdpens

Mar 6 2007, 10:49 AM

IIRC some (vintage) Mabie Todd Swans have cap threads on the section. But these would have been lever or twist fillers so the barrel and section would have been held quite firmly together. I'll see if I can dig out a pic.

Martin

wspohn

Mar 6 2007, 02:32 PM

QUOTE (andyr7 @ Mar 6 2007, 03:17 AM)

As far as I know, no vintage CS pen has the cap engaging on a threaded section, even though the vast majority of vintage CS sections are just a friction fit and the method may have worked rather better. It does not seem a sensible arrangement if the section is threaded into the barrel.

I think this may be a consequence of having pens designed by people who are primarily artists or jewellers, rather than engineers.

The other possibility is that it minimises the total number of machining operations on a pen hence keeping the manufacturing cost down (ie a pen designed by accountants)!

I wouldn't think that they'd pinch pennies over another machining operation when you are talking about a reasonably up-market solid silver pen.

You may be closer to the mark with the designer comment, although I can conceive of there being a reason to do this on non-plastic sections - I just can't think of what it might be.

On the cars, the Lambo is straight metric, my older American engined stuff straight SAE, and modern American cars are a mix of SAE on everything but engine, with metric engines. My old British stuff is pretty straight ahead SAE except for the 57 MG I'm working on that hadn't yet got rid of Whitworth in some of the brake system, and all of the MGs that still used Whitworth in the carbs, probably because SU made them that way from time immemorial and sold them to the big manufacturers.

I have a complete set of inch, another set of metric tools, a few Whitworth wrenches and a good array of 1/16" sizes that will work in a pinch on Whitworth. But the main issue with Whitworth isn't head size, but rather thread pitch, and I lack a set of taps and dies needed to clean up damaged threads.

Mary Burke

Mar 21 2007, 06:09 PM

That is a really great question!

I will speak with the factory manager and production team to find out the reasons why they designed the Drake that way. The Drake has the threads on the gripping section, but the Westminster has the threads on the barrel, so does the Elements and new sterling silver Duros.

With kind regards,

Mary Burke

Mary Burke

Mar 27 2007, 04:16 PM

Hi there,

There will be a design change for future Drake models so that the threads will feature on the barrel rather than the gripping section.

Kind regards,

Mary Burke

wspohn

Mar 28 2007, 02:38 AM

QUOTE (Mary Burke @ Mar 27 2007, 09:16 AM)

Hi there,

There will be a design change for future Drake models so that the threads will feature on the barrel rather than the gripping section.

Kind regards,

Mary Burke

On the one hand I am glad that they see fit to change, although one would have thought that a defect apparent to an amateur like me would not have slipped past a supposedly professional design team.

On the other hand I regret the fact that the change will now render my own Drake obsolete, and presumably their bad design is not a warrantable flaw that would allow me to exchange it for a properly designed pen.

Shades of exploding Pintos - doing product development on their buying public, at the buyers' expense.

Colour me less than happy!

Between this and my brand new CS100 with a nib that kept falling out, I have to say whatever confidence I may have had is fast evaporating.

HDoug

Mar 28 2007, 12:48 PM

I too am disappointed. But thanks, Mary, for posting the info. That much is appreciated.

Doug

wspohn

Mar 28 2007, 02:31 PM

Yes, let me echo Doug - I certainly meant there to be no reflection on Mary, who does a great job of customer relations for the company.

Mary Burke

Apr 18 2007, 10:35 PM

After some considerable discussion with the factory team in the UK yesterday morning, the factory manager (who was behind the design of the Drake) managed to figure out what happened. At first they were very confused about my description of the problem, as they insisted that the Drake had threads on the barrel, and not the section.

Once I made it clear that at least one Drake has threads on the section, the factory manager explained that there were a few prototypes made for research and development and it appears Bill, for some reason, has received the prototype front section with barrel engraving. The prototype has thread placement on the section, instead on the barrel where they should be.

As mentioned here, the trouble with having the threads on the section is that the cap threads can have a slightly tighter grip on the section than the barrel threads, resulting in the section coming unscrewed from the barrel.

Needless to say, should anyone find themselves with a Drake having a threaded section, please contact me directly by email: maryburke@conwaystewart.co.uk

I have also spoken with our US distributor and asked him to check his stock. Every pen he has for distribution within the US has threads on the barrel.

With kind regards,

Mary Burke
Sales & Development, Conway Stewart