I use FP for my class notes on a nightly basis. For many years now I've used Mead 5 Star notebooks. Anyway, within the last year or two, I've noticed that the paper has changed. I recently found a blank old 5 Star and am now using it for one class, but I use new 5 Stars for the other two. The paper difference is very easy to notice. The newer ones have more scratch to them as I use the FP. They're not bad, but the old one is so much smoother with the FPs I use.

So I got to thinking, maybe there are other brands of large 5 subject notebooks with more FP-friendly paper. Mead 5 Stars are not really expensive, but not basement cheap either. Does anyone here know of a cost-effective large-sized spiral notebook for daily notes that is smooth with even vintage FPs? I've typically been very happy with the 5 Star notebooks, but since they've changed paper qualities, I've found it a little less than satisfactory. For the price I pay, I figure I could search around a little bit for a better supply. Any ideas?

The criteria are:

-Large notebooks (preferably 5 subject notebooks as I go through a lot of notes)
-Spiral Bound (portable and easy to keep track of)
-Regular sized paper (not legal)
-Has regular spacings and lines
-FP friendly and smooth, even with vintage flex nibs
-Not too expensive (comparable to a 5 Star Spiral bound 5 subject)

I am a big fan of Black and Red notebooks. I think they are sold in Staples, but not Office Depot or go mail order. They have European sizes, but also some limited US sizes. I use the A4 polypro version and they are lightweight and super FP friendly.

I love my Red 'n Black notebooks. They're cheaper than Moleskins and rather FP friendly with one big caveat - they aren't very absorbent, so don't even think of using a wet nib with them unless you write very slowly.

MicheleB: I think different Office Depot and Staples stores stock different items. In metro Atlanta, the Office Depot stores stock Red 'n Black notebooks, but the Staples stores don't. I guess it must have something to do with the regional managers or even individual store managers.

Here is an internet supplier I have dealt with:

http://tinyurl.com/2d3sl5

A search on froogle.google.com will yield a number of other vendors as well.

I have found that the current batch of Wal-Mart "BASIC" spiral notebooks, distributed by Norcom but made in Brazil are very FP friendly. I have a couple dozen different papers here, some quite expensive, and this cheapo wide-ruled one subject notebook is my favorite. I pull sheets out of it to use as letter writing paper. All my FPs love it and no feathering, even with Hunter Green.

You might try one and see if you like it. Try it in the store even before buying a bunch of them because batches may vary, one to the next.

The notebooks I use are Norcom part number 77070.

Price seems to have no bearing at all on FP friendliness.

That Norcom idea sounds interesting. The Red N' Black ones look really nice, but they are expensive considering the volume of paper I go through. Do the Wal Mart Norcom notebooks come in larger sizes? I usually go through a 5 subject notebook for each class for each semester (so 3 5 subjects per semester at this point).

I found some of those Norcom notebooks at my local Wal-mart - thanks for the tip!

They're not bad, but I find they do feather with some of my inks / pens. They do work well with dry-writing pens, though. Maybe my batch isn't as good... Can't beat the price, though.

I'll stick to Black & Red for now, which feels wonderful to write on although some inks take forever to dry.

My normal ink is Waterman Blue-Black and the pens I use of late are fine flex nibs from the 10s and 20s. I think they write pretty dry compared to the modern stuff that I have.

Here are the results I got using a few different inks on the Norcom 84 cent notebooks:

Noodler's Black, Pilot VP fine nib - No feathering.
Noodler's Luxury Blue, Pelikan m215 Fine - Serious feathering.
Aurora Black, Danitrio Densho XF - Serious feathering.
Aurora Blue, Aurora Ipsilon F - Minor feathering.
Waterman Purple, Lamy Safari XF - Minor feathering.
Private Reserve Dakota Red - Pilot 78G Fine - No feathering.
Private Reserve Black Magic Blue - Esterbrook 1555 - Very minor feathering.

I define "Serious feathering" as visible feathered spots in just about every letter, and "Minor feathering" as detectable feathering in one or two spots per line of writing.

Both the pens I had serious feathering with are very wet writers, so it's early to blame the inks. I'll try a few more pen/ink combinations tomorrow and let you know how it performs.

Add Levenger Cobalt Blue to the feathering list as well. I had a medium True Writer that wrote quite wet loaded with it. It "seriously" feathered in a Mead 5 Star and "really serisouly feathered" in a cheap Wal-Mart notebook (not sure whether Norcom or otherwise). I'd imagine given that it's feathered in everything I've used it on that Norcom would too.

A couple more inks tested on Norcom paper -

Noodler's Fox Red - Duke Medium nib - No feathering
Noodler's Hunter Green - Eversharp Fine nib - No feathering

Fascinating indeed - this is my first experience with Hunter Green but I can't get it to feather on this paper.

But I wonder if maybe instead of just doing maker and brand and price, we could figure out what about these papers make them feather and others not. If we could find a common ingredient or mfg. method, then we could list types of paper there too, but based on how they're made and what they're made from. I'll bet there some common thread among all these feathering papers and inks that is making them behave that way. If we could find that common link, we could add that to the chart and it would be pertinent.

In any event I would truly be interested in such a study. I hear all the time about very high end papers and moleskines and the like, but my bread and butter work is all done with regular ole' notebooks. It would be a great resource to see which "everyday" grade notebooks work well with FPs (both vintage flex and modern manifolds).

Well what primarily moderates feathering on paper is "sizing". A good explanation of what sizing is can be found on Wikipedia, but it's so short I'll just paste it in here:

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Sizing is a substance that is applied to fibers during paper manufacture in order to curb their tendency to absorb liquids by capillary action. By doing so, sizing keeps the ink on the surface of the paper where it was intended to remain. In addition, sizing affects abrasiveness, creasibility, finish, printability, smoothness, and surface bond strength, and decreases surface porosity and fuzzing.

There are two major types of sizing: engine (rosin) and surface (tub). Rosin sizing is applied to almost all papers and especially to all those that are machine made, while tub sizing is added for the highest grade bond, ledger, and writing papers. Tub sizing consists of gelatin glue and / or starch and is generally only used for handmade papers. Rosin is an amphipathic molecule, having both hydrophilic (water-loving) and hydrophobic (water-repelling) ends. The rosin coats the paper fiber and forms a film, with the hydrophilic tail facing the fiber and the hydrophobic tail facing outwards. This creates a water-repellent situation, which causes the water-based ink to remain outside on the paper surface.

There are three categories of papers with respect to sizing: unsized (water-leaf), weak sized (slack sized), and strong sized (hard sized). Waterleaf has low water resistance and includes absorbent papers for blotting. Slack sized paper is somewhat absorbent and includes newsprint, while hard sized papers have the highest water resistance.

Spray-on sizing is also used, like starch, to add body and shape to clothing.

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So this answers the "why" question but I don't think it helps us to identify good and bad papers without performing a live test with each specific ink. Each ink has very different surface tension characteristics. (Put some Waterman black in one test tube and Noodlers black in another, tip the tubes back and forth and you'll see two ENTIRELY different liquid behaviors.) Waterman is fairly water-like. Noodlers has tremendous cohesion and adhesion. It clings to everything. It reminds me a bit of how mercury behaves.

I can't think of a shortcut to doing empirical testing.

Yes- it would appear to be the only way to do it. The ink should probably be fresh too- I've noticed that my Waterman Blue-Black changes properties a bit when it's been sitting in a pen for a few days unused.

Maybe the easiest way would be to solicit experiences from other people who've used the inks and paper we're looking for. Between the larger group here at the FPN, I'm sure we could draw on a variety of experiences with many papers and inks. It's not perfect testing, but it would save some time I guess. Although the use of different nibs would be a difficulty- maybe we could add an extra "comments" column and say what nib it was that was used in the writing sample for that data? I'm not sure but it's one way I guess.

I am a middle school teacher, so I write on many cheap papers. I like Staples notebook filler paper. Its not as good as Red 'n Black or Ampad Gold, but it does the job. I usually buy packs of it at back to school time when I can buy it for $.20 a pack. I now have about ten packs on hand. The paper I don't like, I bring to school and hand out to the students. I don't bring my good pens to school, so at home I like to use the Ampad gold with my better pens. The Staples paper rarely feathers. I try to use safe inks like Waterman, but I have had good luck with Noodler's Black, Iraqi Indigo, and Hunter Green also.

Why do I feel like I'm back in Chem. class? Very interiesting discussion.
Jazz

Judybug posted a helpful hint on FPN some months ago--she keeps a folder or file with sample sheets of the different kinds of paper, stationery, etc. that she buys, and when she inks a pen she tries the pen out on each sample sheet. I started doing the same and it's very illuminating. I just write the name of the pen and the ink. Some combinations you can just see don't work--the line is faint and scratchy, or feathers like crazy. If a combination feels especially nice in addition to looking good, I'll write "nice combo." Over time one painlessly builds an extensive 'matrix' of pen, ink and paper combinations.

Plus, let's face it, when you ink up a new pen, what you really want to do is write a line with it 20 or 30 times, so this gives a handy excuse.

It's definitely anyone's guess how a particular ink/paper combination will perform.

Case in point: I just made a "black cherry" color by mixing Noodler's Luxury Blue and Fox Red. Both of those colors behave just fine on my Black and Red notebook, but the mixture feathers HORRIBLY on the Black and Red paper. The writing actually looks fuzzy. (I'm writing with a Duke Carbon Fiber pen, which is a very wet medium.)

Just for fun, I tried the cherry mixture on the Norcom 84 cent notebook... NO feathering. It's perfect.

I was going to use this ink for handwriting practice, so I've found a use for these Wal-Mart notebooks!

Thumbs down to Mead 5 star new paper for high flex nibs. My old Mabie Todd Swan with flex/superflex was slow and scratchy on the new Mead. But the Norcoms I got are a little better. The older Meads with the darker paper are also nice.

Thanks for all the info, folks. Until the database gets venture capital, I'll try Judybug's sample sheet method.

i thought i would chime in about the norcom note pads. i picked one up yesterday at wal-mart for 97 cents. product #77076 college rule made in argentina. i took a wet pen with me to test it out and it wasnt bad.

lamy vista 1.9mm italic w/lamy blue-no feathering
lamy 2k xf w/pel brilliant black-no feathering (looked better than on rhodia)
pelikano jr a w/noodlers apache sunset-no feathering
laban mento .6 stub w/noodlers apache sunset-minor feathering
duke 2017 ~f w/noodlers aircorps blue black-no feathering
pelikan m215 f w/pr dc super show blue-minor feathering
pelikan m200 .7mm cursive italic w/pr avocado-fair amount of feathering
waterman 32v f semi-flex w/pr avocado-major feathering

all in all the paper held up very well. it just doesnt seem to like the avocado especially in a wet flexy pen. also, the avocado is the only ink that bled through which was fairly minor. in contrast, the ampad gold fibre #20 grid pad that i picked up at the same time feathered even more with the avocado and the apache sunset.

for 97 cents this is a great note pad. i know that i have a couple pen/ink combos that i need to avoid which isnt much of a problem.

cheers and thanks for the good tip!
ryan