Which brand of pen pioneered the high-end fountain pen market?
You will get an E- on your fountain pen grade if you can't answer this one.
Hawk
Another Clue; it has more than six letters in its name.
Does this make it the most exquisite pen in the world ?

Ermm...I'm having trouble answering..

First it asks "in your OPINION", which usually implies that there is no one correct answer, but several points of view...and then you say that if we don't get it correct, we're a failure on our "fountain pen grade".

In my opinion, I was sure that the answer to the question was Parker, as many official American documents have been signed with special Parker pens, but you say it has more than 6 letters (Parker only has 6, not more than six). Also, history-wise, Parker, to me, seems to be one of the most influential players in fountain pen history.

Alas, I am an E- failure in your official fountain pen grading scale


As for that last question in your post.
"no"


Nevertheless, I am curious about the "True" answer. Is it Mont Blanc? :doh:

I was under the impression that fountain pens more-or-less started out as high end products. Didn't most people use pencils or dip pens through the 1920s or 1930s?

Interesting Question... especially since you asked what our opinion is... which means it may and may not agree with yours...
Also you state it signed the most important documents in the world...again who decides what the most important documents in the world were.

Based on documents that I know were signed by a pen from the same pen manufacturer (different models) and gifted to various high ranking officials, dignitaries and leaders of various countries, I would say Parker.
Parker made it a point to gift pens to important people... and in return these pens were sometimes shown in the signing of important documents.... i.e. for both the European and Japanese WWII theater surrrender papers. Eisenhower, is often shown at his desk in the White House using a Parker pen. Various kings, queens and leaders of European nations were gifted Parker pens and are shown using them.
Does this make Parker the brand that pioneered high-end pens.... not any more than Sheaffer, Waterman or a slew of European manufacturers... some of which are no longer with us.

It is an interesting question.

Humm.. so far we have a couple of guesses and one I'm not so sure. There is only one answer to this question and it should require only one word, meaning the pen's brand name.

The phrase 'In my opinion' (Or the ever popular, "it's just someones opinion") seems to be very popular on FPN, however I believe Sam you are right, so I'll edit it out of my message, it's not needed.
Hawk

Tom, unfortunately your answer is incorrect, you now have earned an E- for your grade.
Hawk

I know that in the UK, many of their official documents are signed with Conway Stewart Churchills, and I've heard that Tony Blair gives them to many visiting foreign dignitaries. I'd be interested in seeing the "Royal Churchill" that's being given away.

Alas, I'm certain that's probably not the answer you are driving at.

Be aware that once the answer is revealed, you may be asked to cite proof and share evidence to support the claim.

Well, we may have to first decide what is acceptable for the word 'exquisite' as far as fountain pens go. Let's look at one set of definitions of the word.

1.Characterized by intricate and beautiful design or execution: an exquisite chalice.
2.Of such beauty or delicacy as to arouse delight: an exquisite sunset.
3.Excellent; flawless: plays the piano with exquisite technique.
4.Acutely perceptive or discriminating: an exquisite sense of color.
5.Intense; keen: suffered exquisite pain.
6.Obsolete definition. Ingeniously devised or thought out. (Gosh, too bad I kind'a of liked this one)
In my opinion, a great number of pens fall short of this standard.

Hawk

Right you are, however all it takes is a very careful look at fountain pen history.

In the end, many may totally disagree with the answer, and if I could have I would have written it on a folded slip of paper, so no one would think I change the answer to suit whatever, but for me there is little doubt and the answer will stay fixed.
Hawk

But that is based on your opinon of what pen it is....
If you are going to grade me I want facts... not opinion...

Here we are with the 'opinion' word again.

Think hard, for it is not a difficult question to answer, and I did give a few important clues in my first message. Gosh, I thought this would be an easy pen question to answer, for there are not many real choices out there. You might try the process of elimination, eventually you are bound to get it right.
Hawk

Hawk, maybe there are a few more important clues that should be given in your message to clarify what you're driving at.

What country are we talking about, for their "most important documents"?

Spain? In that case, it's probably an ornate Inoxcrom.

Argentina? Probably a nice Parker 51 that was made AFTER Parker stopped officially making the 51, but since the machines were all down there, they kept makin' 'em.

Germany? Wouldn't surprise me a bit if it were a big fat Pelikan M1000.

In America? The answer from historically correct perspective, is probably Parker. They've made more pens that they've gifted to more dignitaries and leaders than just about any other company. For proof, go and search through the Life Magazine photographic archives of political leaders signing documents. Use a magnifying glass and you'll probably find that if it's an American document with Americans either signing or presiding over the signing of, they're using Parkers.

Iowa? Our people frequently sign documents with Sheaffers, because that's where they got their roots.

Hawk, you've asked a very open-ended question. If you want to have people "earn their stripes" for pen history, you'll need to provide a few more detailed constraints. This is advice from an ex-teacher, pal. You don't ask, "What's the most historically significant document in the world?" and expect to get one answer.

You expect to get a bunch of mystified looks and people scratching heads.

Add details, my friend.

O.K. Right to speed this thing up I will remove the document thing from my first post, maybe then we can arrive at the correct answer.
Hawk

I'll feed you the answer I think you're looking for:

"Montblanc."

Do I get an A?

OK, one more point, on what material or fact are you basing your answer... on something you read online or in a book or is it what you KNOW to be the answer....
Also when the "correct answer" per your information is obtained, I would like corroborating facts detailing the answer ....

Many years ago in a College Freshman English class a test question was "What do you think 'Author's Name' was implying when he wrote 'qoute'.

I was informed my answer was wrong because I did not agree with what the teacher thought I should think. I replied in a rather politically incorrect manor that secured the lowest possible grade in that class. I also secured a promise I would never pass Freshman English in that establishment as long as she was the head of that department. She was able to keep her end of the deal.

Had she asked, "What do I think 'Author's Name' was implying when he wrote 'qoute'. AND, had told us what she though he ment, I might have passed English in that school.

As I don't need to play these games, I'll decline. Your opinion is probably more important than mine.

Ron

You are absolutely correct, it is the Montblanc, and for this receive an 'A' grade and a gold star for your forehead (Or should that be a white star).

A recent Time Magazine special feature titled Artifact (Style and design) says that Montblanc pioneered the high-end writing industry. A hundred years later it remains the choice of the most indelible signatures.

Montblanc has been the signature pen of Kings, Queens, presidents, and Emperors the world over. It has elevated the standard of pens throughout the world. The 100 Years Solitare Mountain Massif is valued at $172,425. The most expensive model, the limited edition Meisterstuck Solitare Royal is decorated with 4,810 pave diamonds (The metric height of Mont Blanc)

A Montblanc has been entered in 'Guinness Book of Records' as the most expensive fountain pen in the world. That's pioneering the high-end market of fountain pens, in no small measure.

So that white star does stand something after all.
Hawk

Ron, everyone's opinions and thoughts, no matter what they may be are important.

Would you accept it if I told you that a little fairy told me so? And well I kinda know the answer on my own.
Hawk

So you have based you answer soley on an article in Time Magazine.... a magazine that accepts advertising from high end manufacturers (as do many others)...
Give me more concrete, unbiased facts and I may consider your answer....
However, as for an article from Time Magazine... sorry.... no enough especially from a biased magazine.

Gosh, Tom, they are quoting facts, not fiction. Somethings you just cannot accept, for whatever reason. I gave you my source, and it facts

Besides everyone, except you, knows that what I said is true. The correct answer is Montblanc, any doubt, nope.
Hawk

And you quote TIME's opinion, interesting.

The documents ending WWII were.... nevermind, those weren't important.

Any doubt .... not in your mind ....

Ron

Hawk,
it sounds like you are taking MB's marketing as gospel. The company wasn't started until about 1908 and by then Waterman and probably other pen companies were selling pens with gold or silver overlays (which qulaifies as high end in my mind). For example, check out these Watermans from 1902 to 1908. http://www.vintagepens.com/catill_Waterman_1.shtml

Also, Time magazine isn't a credible source, at least in academic writing.

Remember, disagreement does not equal disrepsect.

Ben

You aren't all that correct as there were several high end limited edition pens put on the market before MB got into the fray. Anyone seen a Parker sunken treasure and they have continued.

And as for signatures on important documents well that's if you assume Kings and Queens are important people I think a parker signed some pretty important pieces of paper and Esterbrooks were used in the White house



Once again that ain't necessarily so There are if I recall some diamond encrusted monstrosities that were one offs that went for several hundreds of thousands of dollars. I'd have to do a net search but I think even the Peace pen by Montegrappa was ove $200k


But I know this will fall on deaf ears

No you gave me what the magazine article stated.... I have no doubts about the price that is paid for those Mont Blancs.... but stating that they pioneered the high end pen market is the OPINION of the person who wrote the article... it is not a fact... it is an opinion....
Is the person who wrote the article an expert on fountain pen and writing instrument history, or are they a writer in the field of Style and Design... BIG DIFFERENCE in what they know and perceive.
You state the Mont Blanc is in the Guiness Book as the highest pen in the world.... Yes that is fact... I can't deny it... But as for pioneering the high end market... sorry.. Mont Blanc made a very very expensive pen... but so have Cartier, and a load of other manufacturers who were just a bit short of being in the book...

Time Magazine quoted facts about the price of the pen and maybe about being used by Kings, Queens and dignitaries the world over, but the rest of what Time says is purely the opinion of the person writing the article based on their knowledge of Style and Design..... not on their knowledge of the history of writing instruments.

You claim that everyone but me knows that what you said is true..... INTERESTING, especially since only 1 person answered Mont Blanc and even they stated they were giving you the answer you wanted to hear.
I would really like to see how many people actually believe all you have stated is the unabashed truth.....

You accuse me of denying the facts.... I am curious as too how many books you have in your personal library specifically dedicated to fountain pens and writing instruments..... At last count I have approximately 12..... It seems that all the information you declare as the absolute truth concerning any aspect of fountain pens or inks or anything that seems to be related to writing instruments comes from general purpose magazines or inaccurate online sources (Wikipedia itself states it own inaccuracies).... You deny the experience of members here who have been involved in the fountain pen industry and hobby for a great many years and who have done amazing amounts of research in the hobby. All because you read in some general purpose magazine a different answer.
I am not denying the facts that Mont Blanc makes a very very expensive pen, I am denying the fact that I think it is the manufacturer that pioneered the high end pen industry......
You are taking as fact what the rest of us are considering an opinion....

The time writer is quoting solid facts. The Guinness book of record contains only facts. Somehow we have to get over this opinion thing for every discussion we have, and face hard, cold facts, or see an obvious truth.

Montblanc has, without question, established the high end fountain pen market, is that only someones opinion, nope, it's a fact that they have observed.

Was there another fountain pen manufacture in where in the world that accomplished this task, nope. Time magazine is absolutely correct in what they have reported.
Hawk

For every market of every product that is a durable good rather than a disposable one, especially products that one carries around or otherwise can show off, there will be high end versions for the snotty rich people who want to make a statement.

Montblanc is the brand that is best associated with the luxury pen market, but it would be reasonable to say that luxury fountain pens (by which I mean fountain pens made at prices well above the average fountain pen price for the purpose of demonstrating status) were not only not introduced by MontBlanc, but in all likelyhood, predate that company's founding.

The first "luxury" fountain pen was most likely a modified production pen cast in solid gold with gemstones for some american robber baron.

Even many so-called factual items are contestable by opinion! Who invented the first realistic car? What does realistic mean? Was it Cugnot? Was it Daimler or Benz? Was it Henry Ford, who made them realistically affordable for the average man?

If I had to settle on one pen , excluding extremely low run derivatives and strictly one off atelier pieces I would argue the Pelikan Toledo.

OP; Montblanc's progression into luxury writing instruments is a long one. Simplo originally only made rather staid yet high quality safety fillers. Many early "high-end" Montblancs are in fact jeweller modified overlays on top of the Montblanc chassis.

Correction
Three people answered Montblanc.
In your 'Opinion' who did establish the high-end fountain pen market, if it wasn't Montblanc.
Hawk

Yes, the Guiness Book reports fact but world records change. The current most expensive pen is Montegrappa's Peace Pen at $1 million. However, this fact is irrelevent to this discussion.

If MB created the high end market, how do you explain the luxury pens I cited above that were produced before Montblanc (Simplo) existed?

Really I find that simply unbelievable.

The rest of 'us' do you speak for this entire group, are you attempting to gang up on me with such statement, Montblanc is without a doubt the correct answer. I think there are many out there, that may not post messages that disagree completely with your line of thought, so if you could speak only for yourself and not others.
Hawk

Oh I get it

You're making fun of Montblanc's marketing by pretending to take it seriously

right?

Thank you for your comments, however Montblanc was (Always, or over a very long time) at the forefront of establishing the high end market, and this is exactly what the Time article has say. I merely read the various facts that they had put forth.

Montblanc is the very first pen that comes to mind when one thinks of high end pens, and Montblanc has spent much effort to elevate the value of fountain pens.

For me, even without the Time magazine article I believe everyone, even people not in the pen world are aware of this ('fact'). However, I would not assume to speak for others, this is what I believe they think (Warning that was an opinion, or a strong belief, and not a fact)
Hawk

Nope, its just fine with me. I do, however think that Montblanc does take it very seriously.
Hawk

Incorrect again, I am taking the facts within the Time article, and what I know of Montblanc's reputation.
Hawk

Hawk,
I has become obvious (at least to me) that you will only believe what you want to believe....
You obviously (to me) have no interest in believing what anyone else in this forum has to say that does not agree with your pre-conceived notion of the truth as it relates to writing instruments....
There are quite a few of us who "know of Mont Blancs reputation" and I think you might actually be surprised that it does no agree with yours...
BUT of course they are all wrong, because you read it somewhere else...
SO BE IT.... have it your way......

I think parker pioneered the very high end of luxury pens in the late 20's and early 30's with the vacumatics and duofold which are still very asked on the market. Other brands like Wahl and Conklin have also played a very important in the high end pen market. In Germany, Sonnecken was one of the very best high end pen makers before i tdisapperaed at the end of the war, Montblanc presence had considerably risen after WWII with the Meisterstück series. England had also another brand besides Conway Stuart that is too rarely if not never mentionned: Mentmore. The Mentmore pen company produced some very fine and high quality pens.

Oh boy, here we go again.

As with most news publications, the Time article contains cold hard facts, like dollar amounts, dates, etc. It is however, written to be interesting to readers, by one or more humans, who make subjective judgments on how the information should be presented. Much of the content is therefore ultimately an opinion of the writer and editorial staff. In this case, the definition of the "high end market" is not defined. It is easy to to read an opinion as a fact when it is buried in the middle of "cold hard facts".

Overall, I agree completely with Tom. This is another case where you are claiming a single source that you have found, has the one and only correct answer. The opinions of members who have had years more esperience than you, and who don't have an obligation to sell fountain pens, magazines, or books, has no value.

(edited typo)

Interestingly, I used to assume that something written in a newspaper or magazine was authoritative and based on substantial research. But over the years, when I've read articles about subjects that I know a lot about, I found articles written about these subjects usually either superficial at best and just plain wrong at worst. My guess is that journalists don't have the time or luxury to delve deeply into a subject; they interview a few people and take a point of view that they believe is correct, because they've got a deadline and an editor breathing down their neck.

Ron

Here we go again, you are again speaking for others. How in the world do you know what they think? Tom, its a simple thing, Montblanc pioneered the high end pen market, and if I may, everyone but you knows this.
Hawk

When I was younger, before I got into fountain pens, I had a Cross Century ballpoint for a little while. That was, at the time, my definition of a luxury pen.

Let us look up the definition of luxury, shall we?




I think 3 applies here. "something adding to pleasure or comfort but not absolutely necesary" Thats just about any fountain pen. A ball point gets the word on the paper for pennies. A fountain pen starts at a few dollars. And as a luxury fountain pen, well, I bought a Wality 51 for the holidays and for $4, I have a absolutely fantastic pen I am very impressed with. Anything more expensive than that is a luxury fountain pen- they add to, but are not needed for a fountain pen writing experiance.

Conklin's Crescent cost more than the various eye-dropper fillers of its day. It was nice to fill up a pen without using an eye-dropper. That was a "luxury" pen. Conklin came out with this decades before the company that spawned Montblanc existed. Solid gold Sheaffer's, and others, were luxury pens. So it all depends, what do you define as the luxury fountain pen market?

There are few facts in life. What colour is the sky? Blue, you say? I don't think its blue. I think its more of a cerulean. Which is my opinion. Because the definition of names for colour are somewhat variable, the nomenclature for the color of the sky at any given time is variable. Are you saying MontBlanc was the first to market pens as a luxury item? IS THAT SO? I have a advertisement here *drags out 1933 National Geographic* for a Sheaffer Balance, calling it a pen to impress others with its exquisite design.

Is that not marketing a pen as a luxury item? Montblanc pioneered, perhaps, turning a pen brand into a brand that sells ugly, pretentious jewellery, some of which function as writing instruements. But the pen itself as a luxury item? Hell, 500 years ago, being able to write was a luxury.

I will now sit here and tell you, as I can write in whatever venue I choose, that Montblanc makes a crappy pen. I have absolutely no basis for this statement, except for a Generation rollerball I once had which was, to my definition, a hunk of manure.

Were I an expert in MontBlanc pens, or an accepted expert, who diligently studied MontBlancs product line, and made that statement, you now have an opinion by a qualified expert. An opinion... I repeat OPINION by someone whose knowledge base allows them to pass judgement in a fashion more people will respect. But it is still an opinion.

Want some facts? My name is Jesse. Fact. I am a good person. Opinion. Everyone can go and proclaim I am a good person, but unless you lay out a specific checklist of what makes a good person that every person on earth agrees with, and I meet every single item on that list, me being a good person remains an opinion.

An article in the Time Style advertising supplement called Montblanc the first to market a fountain pen as a luxury item. Fact. Montblanc was the first to makret a fountain pen as a luxury item. Opinion. Because there are dozens of concepts in that statement that are variable and debatable. Facts have to be proven, and you can't prove what you just said.

Let's remember we're here to talk pens, pens, pens, chatter a bit and talk pens some more.... ^_^

By making that statement, aren't you speaking for others? It is obvious reading the responses to this post that everyone does not agree with the opinion expressed by the Time author.

Mainly I'm looking at the facts they have presented, and from my very basic knowledge of the Montblanc brand.

I don't believe in, the least, that Time magazine or their authors are attempting to deceive anyone; that would only hurt there sales. They have presented a well-thought out evaluation of what they have found. A few here cannot accept the truth of this presentation.
Hawk

No Hawk your statement is not true.

The manufacturer that pioneered the high end pen market was Waterman.

How else would you explain all of the beautiful overlay pens that were created in the early 20s & 30s. These were not pens for regular people to buy and use, they were more aking to pocket jewelery that is the high end of the pen market. There might be some debate as to whether the majority of these pens were aftermarket jeweler overlays or from the factory but in fact they were designed to capture that market- people with disposable income that wanted something more than just a regular pen.

I am sure that there are lots of documentation- ads for example that will show that there was a large price difference between a regular eyedropper pen and a full overlay.

I don't think that the Time article delved that deeply into the history of fountain pens. I don't think there is any doubt that MB has cornered the market on modern era limited edition pens but that isn't really the question you asked.

Kurt H

You are either a troll, or... no, I am not going down that path.

Time stated an opinion. Any fool can recognize that this is an opinion. Based on their set of definitions, their set of premises, and their own logic, I am sure this statement comes out as a conclusion that is an accurate logical progression of the base from which they started. So it is not a lie. But something being logically correct, and it being a fact, are two different things.

I don't believe for a second that the fountain pen connoisseurs on today would placed Parker pens on the same level with a Montblanc, but that is not what was said in my first post. A recent pen catalog (High end models) that I received place Montblanc at the front, and not in alphabetical order.

Again it was which fountain pen pioneered the high end pen market? That was the question. And I believe not only did they accomplish that feat. but they still hold that prestigious market, and high-end status as of today.
Hawk

Another personal and nasty remark, implied or otherwise, or taken back.

I simply put a question into what I have read, and some would like to make this something other than it is.

Again, it was stated facts, no matter how well you would like to see it other than that. Montblanc, made a serious and successful effort to establish the high end market, and they did it.
Hawk

What part of my statement isn't true. Montblanc did pioneer the high end market and has been doing so for over a 100 years.
Time magazine writer's and editors surely know the world of fountain pens very well, and I'll bet many of them do use fountain pens on a daily basis.

Montblanc stands well above Waterman in the drive to establish the high end market. Do you honest believe that Waterman has the same status as a Montblanc, don't kid yourself for it simply isn't true.
Hawk