What do you think?

Pete;

I always love "if information follows pen". Nothing attaches to the pen so that is really pretty optimistic (so far pretty on the poll are so inclined to be optimist). Even if the first person remembers to disclose there is nothing to say guy #2 would remember. I'm not even suggesting fraud at all. Then there is fraud, for instance, a great color jade flattop will sell for more if the clip is not brassed than if it is. So there is certainly motive to commit fraud. This is often where it is safer to buy a pen on Ebay from folks that say I don't know anything about pens because is less likely to have been messed with.

So I don't have an answer for those that will insist on doctoring up there pens, so buyer beware.

Roger W.

I voted for the Unethical on my own poll. A tough question in a hobby where swapping any "correct" part that didn't come with the pen is OK. There's no such thing as a number's matching pen.

This is certainly a gray area, though, isn't it. Most collectors have no problem buffing out scratches to make the pen appear as though its less warn that it actually is. But those clips, well. . .

I'm guessing that time will be the real answer to this question. In 100 years when our great grandchildren come into possession of our pens, they'll have lost the concern we have and just want the pens to look bone stock perfect.

PeteWK

Hi,

The plating does protect the underlying brass from corrosion and exposure to the elements. Mostly that is... That is why I get things replated.

Dillon

I find it most rewarding restoring a pen back to its former glory and enjoying the pen as the original purchaser did some 50-100 years ago.

Theres something special about it.........

This is a bit of a tough one for me; I voted the "sure why not..." button because I don't have a problem with someone doing what they want with their pens.
I agree with Roger W. that the "as long as the information follows" choice is really no choice at all, given that is impractical to achieve with any degree of success.
If I'm in possession of a scarce or highly desirable pen (however that can be defined) or a pen that is otherwise appearing not-inked or considered by some pen folks to be collectable - then I would not choose to replate or even buff out any serious surface scratching - IF I planned to sell it now or in the future.
If I plan on keeping the pen in my accumulation, which means I will be using it at some interval - I may choose to replate if the brassing is significant.
I know this is all subject to personal taste and opinions are everywhere - but I like my pens to look good and represent themselves as the pens they once were. I suppose I would follow advice that David I espouses on NOS or Stickered un-inked pens - If I don't want to keep the pen in the un-inked condition - sell it to someone who does and buy a similar pen that has been inked - and probably take some profit in the process.
That's a little more than $0.02 worth, but that's my opinion at the present time.

Kelly

Sure, okay, why not? To the degree of your sophistication, either you can tell it's replated, or you can't. If you can tell, great, no harm, no foul. If you can't tell, no prob! If you can't tell when you buy it, but can tell later when your expertise increases, well, education ain't cheap!

Hi,

Most of the time, if DK does it, then you won't know unless you are told.

Dillon

if it's done professionally, why not? they restored the sistine chapel, didn't they? (and much the better it is--speaking as the husband of a professionial art restorer/conservator).

I'm happy with the replating thing - after all, it's the way it was originally isn't it? And if we could we'd all restore a pen to the original "new out of the box" quality wouldn't we. THat's why Mint in box pens fetch such a premium - because over the years they become rarer. So as long as you're not doing anything to the pen which wasn't done before when it was made it's all fine.
If anyone is really bothered about receiving the pen in pristine condition then they should ASK before buying. After all if that's so important to them then they should make sure the vendor volunteers the information.
And yes it should be professionally done. After all, gold-plating is not an easy task to perform.

Regards
Rabbi Zvi.

Rabbi;

Technically, gold plating and replating rolled gold are not the same. The original material on vintage pens was not plated. I don't think as a hobby, from the collector's view, we have a consensus of replating being proper restoration. When it is done well it does look great but, does it tell lies as to what the true condition of the pen is?

As I said at the start of this thread, information does not attach to the pen and the first buyer may remember having it replated and pass this along. Buyer 2 never had it replated so may not remember that it arrived in their hands so processed and not tell the next buyer. So "as long as the information follows" is just nieve beyond belief but, that is what most folks voted for. It can be deceptive. I've seen excellent pieces that their only fault was clip wear from rolling around. It makes a difference to the value.

Roger W.

I probably should have included a category or two in between, ah well. Maybe all of this is why I prefer solid gold. Hard to fake that.

PeteWK

I'd replate... First, if it's worn enough to warrent replating, the rest of the pen will also be worn enough that the person looking for the perfect NOS example will pass it by anyway. Typically, replating is expensive enough that it isn't justified from an economic standpoint. You're better off trying to find a pen or cap in better condition. The pens you'd replate are the ones that have a personal significance- wonderful writer, family heirloom, etc.

"Maybe all of this is why I prefer solid gold. Hard to fake that."
.
exactly

My thought would be how different is this from someone who creates a pen out of spare parts or replaces a piece from another pen. Should that be considered original if all of the pieces are original? And what if by changing a piece it becomes an elusive pen should the repair person or owner admit that it is not a true original and if there is no way to tell the difference is there one?


K

K;

Easy, since pens were mass manufactured there is absolutely nothing wrong with using identical original parts. It makes a pen no more or no less than it was originally. I would further state that no disclosure of such replacement should be made as nothing has been modified from the original aspect of the pen's manufacture.

Roger W.

But that 'pen' hasn't survived down to us as an intact entity. It isn't NOS, mint or original! but it could be sold as any of those 3.


Why should a pen that has been put together from other parts of pens that were damaged or a stock of spare parts have the same value as one that survived?


I don't agree that they should have the same value.


K

K;

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. You are using a load of terms fast and loose but, then so does the hobby. Maybe you have a good barrel that needs a cap - not a big deal to match it up to one. Much more importantly, caps and barrels have been mated up for decades so there is about no way to know if they are right or as factory anyway. Take Sheaffer flattops with white dots. Never should they have two dots on the pen (one on the cap and then another on the barrel). The barrel marked pen would have only been on the ring top. No one can say for certain, though, that it didn't even leave the factory that way and caps and barrels are exactly interchangeable. Same thing with open nibbed white dot snorkels. That configuration should never happen but are found often, the white dot was intended to be a triumph nib.

So, basically, the pool is tainted already. These pens were mass produced but you are asking us to look on them as individual pieces of art which they are not. This isn't even a corvette where the engine and the car have to have matching serial numbers. If your pen had broke originally and you sent it back they would use a like piece for the repair (and we'd never know this had been done either unless the pen lanquished after it got back with the repair receipt). Because a pen is "intact" as it was originally or if it was repaired using proper original parts it doesn't matter, the information for the collector is the same.

Roger W.

And really I was putting this out for discussion as it sort of is a bookend to the replating issue. So it is OK to replace a clip totally with a clip from a damaged pen but not OK to replate the clip that has become worn.

Kurt H



I just have a gut feeling that there should be some additional cache in a pen that is original and unchange. But it would be difficult to impossible to determine so it's left to just being a feeling

Kurt;

But replating rolled gold is not remotely the same as using a clip of the period. Replating can look nice but, plated and rolled gold is not the same stuff. 1921 clip to 1921 clip is the same stuff.

Roger W.

I guess I just can't understand the dichotomy that a pen can be restored by picking bits and pieces and putting them together but that plating a clip is somehow a bad thing.


Can't argue about it I guess that's just how it is.


K

Replacing parts with identical parts results in a pen in a state indistinguishable from an all-original pen from the standpoint of its composition. The pen, as a state function, is correct in its composition. Electroplating parts that were not originally electroplated, but rather gold filled, results in a pen that is quite different in composition from an original pen. The pen, as a state function, is is not correct in its composition.

--Daniel

Greetings all,

I can see what Kurt is getting at here; the same problem exists in the vintage car hobby. The general consensus there, (of course, there are always abstainers), is that if I own a 1968 Mustang with a dented fender and I replace that fender with one from another 1968 Mustang, the car can no longer be referred to as "factory original," but the term "original" can still be applied. If the fender is replaced with aftermarket replacement parts - all degrees of originality are lost.

My problem with re-plating pens is the tag line "as long as the information follows." This qualifier will probably be lost after the first or second owner. Therefore, if I am buying a vintage pen, how can I tell if the gold is original or not?

You are at the mercy of the current owner selling the pen and the second or third owner may not know the history of the pen and honestly believe the plating is original.

This is the problem. Now, if the pen is for your own use and there is little or no chance it will ever wind up on the open market, I suppose it doesn't matter, but this whole practice makes me a little uneasy.

Best wishes,

Sean

If replating is done right, does it last? If it's done expertly enough that you cannot distinguish it from an original, or at least from anything else not NOS, and it will last as long as the other furniture, then I think it's ok. Afterall, someone put in the time and effort--it should translate to something enough to elevate the item in value.

Also, I think any replaceable part is fine to be replaced by an original (such as a clip swap). But I wonder if that extends to anything date stamped. For instance, the nib has a year stamp on it, hidden by the hood and feeder. Nibs can get damaged. Replacements look identical. Does a first year 51 have less value with a 1950 replacement nib on it? I wonder...

I hear what Kurt is saying as well - there should be additional value to a pen that has not been messed with since it left the factory.

A lot of it depends on whether you can determine it or not. Some later pens can be found still in their plastic packaging, showing that they truly have not been opened or used. A sticker can sometimes indicate that a pen has not been opened, but usually the sticker doesn't cover the critical areas. Some clip replacement results in noticable marks to the pen. Differences in wear and discoloration can sometimes indicate replacement parts, though celluloid often discolors unevenly. For the most part, these indicators do have an impact on the value of the pen. If a Jade or Lapis DuoFold has matching and consistantly good color on both cap and barrel, it will probably fetch a higher price than one that has uneven color (though this is largely a factor of the color). Date codes also can have an impact, though people recognize that it might have come from the factory with mismatched date codes.

But often there is no way to reasonably tell if a certain combination was put together at the factory or put together later, and that is where, I think, there is little extra value in being "Factory Original" vs. "Original" to borrow Sean's terminology. If you can prove it somehow, then I am sure that the "Factory Original" pen would have additional value than the parts-put-together pen.

Another consideration is what would the factory do. If you were to send a Duofold to the Parker factory to get a worn clip "fixed", they would not have taken off the clip and tried to re-roll the gold, or apply some sort of patch to the worn spots and roll that on - they would have grabbed a new clip from the parts bin and replaced it (for a charge, I am sure).

John

Hello John and all,

As you say- with pens, there is no real way of telling a "factory original" because the individual parts are usually not numbered or coded.

I think what it boils down to is Caveat Emptor- if you are looking at a 50-year old pen and the trim looks stunning, (or nearly stunning), chances are excellent you are looking at re-plated pen. While it may be difficult to tell in some instances, such fluctuations can usually be spotted with careful analysis.

Best wishes,

Sean

Sorry for the smiley face, but the bunny expresses how I feel about posting my second day on the site.

I voted for replating with information to follow because it is the beauty of these pens that enthralls me. If I can take a book or fountain pen that is headed for the trash can and turn it into a thing of beauty that I enjoy using, I feel like I have truly accomplished something. If that fact somehow gets lost, I have still sent an artifact that I have rehabilitated forward into the future. I would even suggest that it is better than it was because hands from multiple generations have been involved in its creation.

The purists and strict curators usually inform a hobby, and I deeply respect them. But nothing I buy is of museum quality or likely to influence the future archeology of North America. Of course there is a limit that separates restoration and forgery, but I think loving amateurs (as opposed to resellers) would have difficulty crossing over into the dark side.

I am not sure this is helpful, but I am sure curious whether my avatar will appear. Thanks for letting me join you.

Steve

Hi Steve and welcome to the forum! Just today I purchased a nice fountain pen with a ruined cap. The rest is nice and I have a good cap to go with it. That cap's pen has a cracked barrel. No one will ever know the difference. It's not a valuable pen but it is completely correct in every way other than the fact that the factory didn't put those parts together on that one pen. No replating, though.

PeteWK

Before diving into anything as emphatic as "ethics", i do wish to emphasize what Daniel has stated/implied.

This thread perhaps has an erroneous title. The ethics of "replating" nearly is an irrelevant question, since nearly no pen ever ever ever has been replated!

Rather, pens that were- generally- of gold-filled metal have been PLATED to improve trim appearance, not replated as they largely never were plated.

A separate question of semantics then can address whether PLATING (not replating) a pen meets some so-far undefined formal definition of "restoration". Clearly the process does not use identical method of original manufacture to create the finish (whilst replacing a clip from clean donor IMHO clearly is a restorative process). Certainly the process might be viewed as an improvement, though, if one views it as improving the item.

So, i submit the better question is, " Is to plate (not replate) pen trim an ethical approach to improving said pen?"

And, to answer... i remain of mixed view and probably am too beat to dive into the nuances tonite.

I do note that many pens i'd not consider plating, and i note that i have had items plated including one sort for which i so far consider plating an acceptable intervention... which i guess would make sense Daniel did very nice work on it.

Perhaps some of the questions to consider...

1) Is plating fully reversible. Answer- probably not, though i defer to the masters. Still, polishing a pen is sort of not reversible either and most do it without hesitation.

2) Does plating protect and/or enhance the pen.

3) Does plating mask/hide native flaws and is this bad.

4) What role has the plated pen in the marketplace.

Probably more to address.

IMHO, the most reasonable trim for which to consider such treatment is smooth white trim (nickel/chrome etc). Not sure that was "filled" vs plated in first place (in which case we DO address replating, not plating as the issue at hand). Such trim is so fragile, that often it is found disproportionatly trashed in otherwise preserved pens. On smooth trim, the results looks terrific.

Think i'm wandering.

Off to bed.

d