General question...has anyone ever had a problem with bottle ink purchases freezing in the mail? Do the bottles break?? Is there special mailing, or instructions to be given to the seller before shipment?
I appreciate any thoughts/experiences on this matter. Thanks,
Andrew

Hello Demeter,

Most ink manufacturers, such as Waterman’s and Colfer’s Imperial Inks™, add ethylene glycol, (the main component of anti-freeze), to their inks to prevent this from happening.

Best wishes,

Sean




* Edit: Winking smiley added.

Thanks for that bit of news. Let the snow fly, and the lakes turn to ice. The ink will still flow.
A.

Another possibility is Noodler's Polar inks. These inks simply won't freeze at any temperature you're likely to encounter north of the Ross Ice Shelf.

Does this mean I can't drink your inks in a pinch? :ph34r:

-Hana

Hello Hana,

I wouldn't recommend it- stick to sloe gin or Night Train Express, (even though my inks will go down smoother than NTE).


Best wishes,

Sean

I'm not legally allowed to drink alcohol yet..lol (I had to google NTE)

I almost accidentally drank some ink tonight-- I was cleaning out a pen for a convert at a restaurant..

-Hana

Well, you could always ship only Noodler's Polar inks! :doh:

But most of the time it's dependent on the place you're sending it. I suppose that it's a possibility under some circumstances, but I've never heard of this as one of the disasters which have befallen ink shippers.

Um, ethylene glycol is poisonous. I'm under the impression that fountain pen inks are non-poisonous due to the possibility of kids drinking the stuff.

I'll take your word for it about putting it into your own ink, but are you sure that Waterman's ink has it as an ingredient too?

Hello ISW,

Yes, I'm positive- Waterman's ink contains ethylene glycol and so does Parker's. I believe most, if not all, ink contains some type of anti-freeze chemical; I selected ethylene glycol because it is the most effective anti-freeze- a little bit goes a long way. That is most likely why Waterman’s and Parker’s use it; along with probably many other manufacturers- I just can’t prove it in anyone else’s case.

The fact that you have never come across frozen ink helps illustrate the point that ink manufacturers put some type of anti-freeze in their inks- you are talking about a substance that is roughly 95% water- what else could keep it from turning to a block of ice during winter shipping?

As far as your concerns about ink being poisonous- it is- but it also has to be consumed in very large quantities- for you to be at risk, you would have to drink around 5 bottles of ink; a child would have to drink around 3.* (Many people confuse this issue because of the Phenol, {a fungicide}, situation; Phenol, {and its derivatives}, was not removed from ink to make it safe around children; Phenol was banned because it is a proven carcinogen and is hazardous to EVERYONE).

In sum, unlike Prestone, where essentially the entire product is ethylene glycol, (and quite toxic), inks carry only a very small amount- just enough to keep them from freezing in transit, but not enough to keep an automobile engine from freezing up when it is 50 below.

Best wishes,

Sean



*: Naturally, if you or your child ever ingests ANY amount of ink from any manufacturer; consult a physician or the PCC immediately.

PS: If you require proof that Parker and Waterman inks contain ethylene glycol, please e-mail me and I will attach it as a PDF document.


- Edit: Green legalese statement & PS added.

Thanks all for the expertise. A cornucopia of knowledge and diversions makes for good reading.

I was actually fretting over ink I ordered, and it arrived in liquid state...J. Herbin...nice.

Andrew

Hello Andrew,

No problem- glad I could help. Enjoy your new J. Herbin and rest easy in the knowledge neither snow nor freezing rain nor howling northern winds nor the gloom of night will stay your ink from arriving in a liquid state.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Best wishes,

Sean

Would ink that was once frozen, then defrosted, still work properly?

Hello Kissing,

That is an interesting question- I have never put it to an actual test. However, I think it would adversely affect the ink; as I said earlier, we are talking about a product that is approximately 95% water, but a product that also insists on a delicate balance of dyes and chemicals to perform properly; hence the use of an anti-freeze in the first place.

As you know, when something freezes and then thaws- the water content and chemical balance is altered. You essentially have no control over the final results- that would be determined by an incalculable array of environmental variables.

Now, my inks might fare a little better because for one thing, they are concentrates and two, they are designed to be flexible. However, I believe all ink manufacturers want their customers to receive the best possible product and I am no exception, so I added the ethylene glycol to ensure the end user would receive a pure, unadulterated product.

In sum, the adverse affects to the ink's performance could range from almost imperceptible to completely hideous; it would largely depend on the inestimable environmental variables and their interaction with each manufacturer’s particular formula.

Best wishes,

Sean




• Edit: Corrected typo and added text.

Hi demeter,

I've been thinking about bottles freezing and breaking, and/or the ink separating, a lot over the last week. I have ink coming in the mail that I am expecting any day now, and the temperature is dropping to -34 C (-22 F?) for most of the day.

It will be interesting to see what condition it is in when I get it. If there are any problems I will let you know.

Kris

J Herbin Coffee Brown will freeze. Needed to change colours in my Agio and ejected the excess into a cup which I then placed in the freezer for a bit as a test.

Guess it's not surprising given that their stuff is vegetable-based and non-toxic ( http://www.jherbin.com/fountain_pen_inks.shtml ).

William

Thanks William for the information! I'll keep that in mind when I'm out and about with the pen in my pocket.
Andrew

Oh, well. Guess I can't use that angle to justify more ink to my wife. "No, really! I can just pour ink into the radiator when the coolant light comes on!"

Don M.

Hello Andy and Don,

Please keep in mind that Bill is talking about J. Herbin inks and I don't think they include an anti-freeze chemical in their inks. However, most ink manufacturers do, so feel free to pour in your radiator if you must.

BTW, thanks Don, I needed a laugh this morning.

It would be interesting to see if Waterman's or Parker’s Quink froze- because I know they DO contain ethylene glycol. I'll have to test them myself, (as well as my own inks), when I get caught up here a little.

Best wishes,

Sean

Hmm, actually that kind of begs the question --- would there be a vegetable-based material one could use for anti-icing properties? I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be one.

Also, is there any other manufacturer doing fountain pen inks solely from plant-based materials?

As regards my frozen J. Herbin Coffee Brown, as Sean (Corniche) noted, after thawing the ink did _not_ reconstitute to its previous state, a lot of the pigment remained dried and what remained of the ink was much thinner and more watery.

William

I have had many a bottle of ink from many a retailer and have never had a problem. Now I am trying to remember what time of year I bought them. Boy, this is going to keep me up. Thanks.

Phenol is toxic, a rather nasty poison.

But you are going to have to come up with a human carcingin citation. Everything I've looked at said it is NOT a human carcinigen.

Hello RL Todd,

Well, it has been proven to be a carcinogen in rats- isn't that close enough?

Best wishes,

Sean




PS: Seriously though, I've seen studies both ways, so I am going to err on the side of safety; furthermore, I have no choice, the federal government banned its use, so I couldn't add it even if I wanted to.

The only thing I could find was that some or one (no specific reference(s)) study had turned up skin lesions on rats. There was also an EPA note that they had moved it to class D as not having been proven to cause cancer in human beings. I am beginning to think the whole " phenol causes cancer" is a folk myth or the increasingly more common junk science phenomena.

OTOH, I did come accross some phenol toxicity references that indicated a teachers quart of Quink or Waterman with phenol could kill a child if the child drank it. For a full size adult the reference I saw said one gram was fatal, probably to 50% of the subjects.

BTW, lab rats have been so carefully bred over the decades that it looks like some breeds will develop tumors if you look cross eyed at them. Once upon a time I ran Sprague - Dawleys (albino rats) in an aversion study. They were about the most unnatural living thing breathing the good earth's air that I have ever come across.

Hello RL Todd,

I don't know what you're telling this to me for- if you feel so strongly about Phenol, tell all of this to OSHA, the EPA, (among other government agencies), and convince THEM that it's safe.

When you have convinced them, they can turn around and tell me that it is okay (and legal) for me to add it; until then- there is nothing I can do about it.

Best wishes,

Sean

I have received inks in the dead of winter without any problem whatsoever. I'm not sure that test-freezing a small amount of ink while it's sitting still on freezer shelf is a reliable "example test."

Most inks that are shipped are pretty well packaged (probably good for some degree of insulation anyhow) and they do get jiggled around during shipping. So just how likely are they get frozen into a solid inko-cube? I dunno... but like I said, I never had any problems.

Maybe I'm just lucky. I've never had any other ink ickies either, like sludge of slime or mold.

Petra

As I posted in in this old thread, phenol is/was found in low concentrations in Chapstick ® and some other lip protectants (e.g. Blistex ®, Carmex ®). I've made up many a topical compound containing phenol (in very low concentrations) prescribed by dermatologists/family doctors when I was a pharmacist (edit: I left pharmacy in 2004 ...in case anyone thinks I'm an "old time" pharmacist who used to compound things like poultices, etc. )

as i related in

this thread,


i drank some inky water by mistake, and thankfully survived. wouldn't try it in heavier doses, though

I used phenol regularly when doing in-growing toenail excisions in general surgery to ablate the bed. I can't remember the concentration, it was 2.5 years ago, been doing nothing but bones for a while now.

this gets my vote for the most interesting FPN post of the year

Lol. It's meant cleanly. Did general surgery in my basic training scheme and now I'm specialising in Orthopaedics.

Regarding freezing inks, a topic near and dear to my heart since we try to ship ink to have it arrive in liquid form not ink cubes!

All this talk about ethylene glycol in ink concerns me, FP ink has always been classified as non-toxic and I'd like it to stay that way! Anyway, a few thoughts and a bit of rambling .......

The statements about ethylene glycol being in "most" inks have been very general and quite frankly ethylene glycol is not something to fool around with, even if it is in "some" inks (NOT ALL INKS). I think if I had my way, which I don't, I'd opt for NO ethylene glycol in any ink!

From the wikipedia (I'm not a chemist, but I do understand this! >>>>>The major danger from ethylene glycol is following ingestion. Due to its sweet taste, children and animals will sometimes consume large quantities of it if given access to antifreeze. etc, etc, etc .........

Ethylene glycol poisoning is a medical emergency and in all cases a poison control center should be contacted or medical attention should be sought. It is highly toxic with an estimated lethal dose of 100% ethylene glycol in humans of approximately 1.4 ml/kg.[1] Although, doses as small as 30 milliliters (2 tablespoons) can be lethal to adults.[2]<<<<

This is a link to a 2003 MSDS sheet for Parker Quink and Penman inks:
http://www.sanford.com/sanford/pdfs/Parker...enman%20Ink.pdf

Note above states "normal use" which I take to mean putting ink on paper with a pen, not drinking it! Also note that Parker Quink ink is not made in US and different rules and regs apply in diff. countries. Waterman's MSDS statement also includes ethylene glycol. Sheaffer's MSDS statement does not include ethylene glycol. The trace amounts contained in Pkr and Wtm inks are just that, a tiny amount. Still probably not good to drink.

My thoughts: Ink does not NEED ethylene glycol, why take the risk! Cold temps may freeze ink, but bear in mind ink travels in plane cargo holds all year round, not the most ideal temps, ie: not moderate. Someone mentioned ink gets swished around in shipment & this is true, extra packing materials help insulate ink. PLUS and this is important!!! Liquid dyes used in at least one ink brand that I am aware of do not have the same freezing point (32F) as water.

While it may or may not reassure those of you worried about frozen ink, I can say that it is RARE for ink to freeze in transit. The best chance for it freezing is sitting in your mailbox, so have it shipped to your office or maybe your neighbor could put your mail inside that day. More worrisome than the ink freezing would be the glass bottle breaking .... ewww ... messy!

But if you really want to know what I think (probably not!! LOL) I think ya'll are fretting needlessly :-)

And now I have to get back to retail holiday madness!!

Sam

I recall that phenol, in low doeses, was included in cough drops and cough suppresent throat sprays up to fairly recently.

I did some further checking on the carcinigen issue and phenol is not listed as a known or proven human carcinigen by either the US or EU. However, alchohol and soot are. Soot, suspended in liquid and there fore not inhaled, in my understanding is a major component of India/Chinese ink.

Yes, as far as it goes, but I think there is quite a bit more to it. I think that is the 50% lethality dose. Half a population will die if they recieve 1.4ml/Kg, or if you give 140ml to 1,000 220lb human beings, 500 of them will die. One or maybe even 1 in 10,000,000 or so, will die if they get as little 30ml. There is also a statistical probability that Some One person in the population is probably immune and can chugulug a quart of the stuff with no ill effects.