Hello friends,

I have found this strange and funny little pen with its funny little box over there.
Do you know by any chance wich model is it?
On the nib: Wahl Eversharp,18K,2,flexible.
Marbled green,brown and gold.
Many thanks for reading
Best regards
Jean-Elie

pic

It's a very nice looking pen. I'm sorry I can't help with its identity.

Thanks Mike, i do think so; i have not found anything in my books about it

Well, it's about the length of a Wahl Bantam, but I thought those were bulb-fillers, and the clips were different, too....Sorry, I don't know the model name, but it's a pretty little pen, whatever it is

Hmmm, I just remembered something, Jean-Elie....
You might want to try sending a PM (personal message) through FPN to FPN member "Wahlnut" (Syd Saperstein of Pensbury Manor). He knows a lot about Wahl-Eversharp fountain pens, and may be able to help you.

Thanks for this great idea Maja and by the way i need another black hard rubber dye.

I maybe wrong but it looks like an Wahl-Eversharp Equipoise womans or vest type model..

http://www.vintagepens.com/Equipoise.shtml

http://www.penopoly.com/wahl_eversharp_pens.html

http://www.billspens.com/billspens/eversha...e/equipoise.htm

Jean-Elie,
The pen in question is a 1930-31 Equipoised lady's side clip pen in Bronze -Green (later called Brazilian Green)Pyralin plastic probably with fixed nib and feed - as opposed to the personal interchangable point available on the larger models. Wahl Eversharp bought their plastic stock from DuPont de Nemoors. There was a matching pencil available at the time. The lalady's pen came in side clip and ring top and perhaps a clipless and ringless model, but I can not prove that as I have not seen one.

Hope this helps

Thank you Syd. It is always a pleasure to have you share your knowledge with us here at FPN!

John

Good guess, jaytaylor...and thanks so much for the valuable info, Syd!

I didn't know that some Equipoise pens were so tiny! I had checked Glenn Bowen's book "Collectible Fountain Pens" and saw a "miniature" one there but it had a completely different (non-roller) clip, so I didn't think Jean-Elie's pen was one of them...

Dear friends !

A gain a FPN effect
A huge thank you for those fast details, it is a real pleasure to share with you
All the best
Jean-Elie

A tentative objection to Syd's ID.

The pen is shorter than typical Equi-Poised ladies pen (and those "usually" seem to be clasp models). Indeed it seems the length of the Equi-Poised Purse Pen, though those too are catalogued with Clasp and seem to crop up also in ring top.

So, my claim for the moment might be that this pen fits more the shape of a Poised Purse Pen. The clip is an anomaly regarding the catalog pages for either Ladies or Purse models, but the pen looks like a purse pen.

Here is a very hacked together babble fest on the Wahl Purse Pen done few months back. I already have things i'd change in it ;-) BUT, the catalog page on top- iirc- shows on the left a ladies pen (with clasp), larger than the purse models.

http://www.vacumania.com/penteech/wahleversharpequipurse.htm

Of course perhaps what you call "ladies" and i call "purse" are referring to same thing ;-) Catalog does call them "ladies purse pens". I'd thought the slightly longer one at left (in the catalog scan) were the ladies pens proper. Perhaps not.



regards

david

Thanks for the input David, always welcome. With all due respect to you my learned friend, and in the interest of lively discussion, I can not yet accept the interpretation that it is an Equi-poised purse pen with a somehow replaced clip for the following reasons:
1) The Equi-poised purse pen had a single cap band with diagonal figuring; Jean-Elie's pen has 2 cap bands, like the earlier lady's Equi-poised pens.
2) The clasp slot position on the Purse pen is within 6 milimeters of the end of the cap point; Jean-Elie's is at leat twice farther down the cap side
3) I have not pulled an inner cap from a purse pen lately, but if memory serves, the "clasp" model uses a screw-anchored right angle clasp; Jean-Elie's unless modified, is a side clip that holds by friction fit between the cap body and the inner cap, and has an offset leg inside the cap to accommodate this process, which accounts for the clip beinf further down he cap as well.
4)Prior to the 1932 catalog that David I's article cited and which is referenced again here, there were roller side clip (not clasp) Equi-poised non-gold seal ladies pens produced in 1930 and 31 with 2 gold cap bands and the roller clip.

I have the roller clip pencil that was the mate to a similar pen here in Jade for reference.

The color Brazilian Green (as it was known during or after 1932) or Green-Bronze (as it wan known from 1928-1931-2) were the same color thus, the color can not help us here.

So apart from the length of the pen placing it in the purse-pen category, the other characteristics would tend to place it into the 1930-31 pre-purse-pen Equi-poised era.

Either way its a VEWY NYZE pen!

ok. a chewy subject no doubt ;-) This could get verbose...

Why is it that whenever wahl nomenclature comes up, we all done end up having to define what "is" is??? No worries, the 800 mg Motrin is nearby ;-)

Let's tackle some of what you cite. Do bear with me.

I can not yet accept the interpretation that it is an Equi-poised purse pen with a somehow replaced clip for the following reasons

Hmmm. I guess i did call it a Purse Pen. But, my stronger assertion i guess is that whether or not it fershure is a 'Poised Purse Pen, it does fit the size, unlike *any* other Wahl of which i'm aware- except maybe some faceted dorics. Hmmm. Still, i clearly do not claim awareness of all that might be out there. So humble hack-amateur-newbie David next must ask, if you cite this as a Ladies Pen, then which non-purse Ladies pen is that, cited where in Wahl literature? Otherwise, to borrow your phrase, i cannot accept an interpretation that it is some other 'Poised Ladies Pen either ;-) Data is requested.

Also, i do not claim "replaced clip". Given that i've seen Purse Pens just like those in that one catalog (of which i'm aware) except these examples are packing Rings instead of clips, i would assert that we lack complete data as to the complete array of attachment mechanisms found on Purse Pens. Ringtops appear to exist (uncatalogued). It is possible some were turned out good n' proper with big roller clips.

The Equi-poised purse pen had a single cap band with diagonal figuring; Jean-Elie's pen has 2 cap bands, like the earlier lady's Equi-poised pens.

OK. What "is" is n' all that. If one found a Brazilian Green huge Personal Point Flat Top that was like all other flat top OS's save that the band- strangely enough- was "rhomboid" instead of "deco" would he say, "this cannot be an OS flat top personal point, because the one ad i've ever seen for an OS Flat top Personal Point shows a deco band"? I doubt it. It'd be an OS with a different cap-band. Since we happen to have LOTS of catalogs and Ads for PP GS OS FT's (crap- Personal Point Gold Seal Oversized Flat Tops), we don't have that worry. IIRC the rhomboid flattop is shown side by side with the others, so we know its the same pen ;-)

Indeed other cases exist in which one color or another Wahl seems to violate the usual "trim rules" of its brethren of like size. I've seen second size flat tops (long #4 size nibs, GS pens) that in Brazilian Green have the (YIPE) diagonal figuring (iirc) like the purse pen with no flanking bands- a single band instead of triple). In fact the link shown in earlier note to Penopoly's wahl sales shows such a pen.

Again, i've seen obvious Purse Pens (iirc, in purse-pen-only colors even) with ring toips, not catalogued but can be no other pen.


But, we have (well, i have) only one page to go on for PUrse Pens. So, if ring tops are not shown, so what? If Brazilian green is not shown and if brazilian green has a history of having trim different from other colors in otherwise similar models, how do we know that color must (or must always) have the same cap-band in the purse pen line. Indeed, the catalog page does not even show (but does cite) a pen of the color we discuss today.

2) The clasp slot position on the Purse pen is within 6 milimeters of the end of the cap point; Jean-Elie's is at leat twice farther down the cap side

Perhaps a stronger case. But the pen is of purse pen size (not the longer pen at left in that scan). Assuming this is so (perhaps i'm misreading pic of the pen cited today), where the clip enters might be dependent on type of clip present, rather than being something to utterly dump the pen out of the category. Again, i've seen RingTops with the purse pen size, classically correct purse pen capband, of course not catalogued. They don't have a slot position at all. Are they too not purse pens because of that slot position?

3) I have not pulled an inner cap from a purse pen lately, but if memory serves, the "clasp" model uses a screw-anchored right angle clasp; Jean-Elie's unless modified, is a side clip that holds by friction fit between the cap body and the inner cap, and has an offset leg inside the cap to accommodate this process, which accounts for the clip beinf further down he cap as well.

Again, though, all this sounds like an issue of how one places either a side clip, a clasp or a ring top into a pen of a given size. Interesting issue no doubt, but i might object that this is not about which class/category/model pen we examine, but rather how within this single model (Purse Pen) one gets one or another clip onto the pen.

I agree that a side clip is an anomalous finding in a Purse Pen.

I note that we have very little data- indeed just one page of it at one time- about what sorts of Pursies were made.

I note having seen "uncatalogued" ring top Pursies.

I assert that using clip type alone to include or exclude pen from pursependom might be a rush to judgement.

That said, Wahl might well have had another name for this pen or target market, time of manufacture etc etc. BUT, do we have any evidence to lump this pen in with any other, better, category?

4)Prior to the 1932 catalog that David I's article cited and which is referenced again here, there were roller side clip (not clasp) Equi-poised non-gold seal ladies pens produced in 1930 and 31 with 2 gold cap bands and the roller clip.

Yes, but those pens are of markedly different size, no?

And we have established i hope that some wahl colors did vary from the trim seen in most other colors of one or another model/size pen.

Thus, is a pen whose size matches only the Purse Pen (assuming this is so) and thus matches size with no earlier catalogued pen, but which has some trim in common with some earlier pens and not the one page of purse pen data we have... better lumped in with the Purse series or with some other series, especially given Green/Gold's history of violating trim "rules" for other models? Guess, i claim the Pursies are the way to go ;-)

So apart from the length of the pen placing it in the purse-pen category, the other characteristics would tend to place it into the 1930-31 pre-purse-pen Equi-poised era.

Length of cap, barrel and gripping section (if correct) unique to the Purse Pen model is at least grounds for asserting lumpage of this pen with the Pursies.

I've noted that Green/Bronze can violate "trim rules" (eg. Capband pattern) and has done so before.

I note that we have limited catalog data, that i've seen Ring Top Pursies, and that roller clip is a bit of stretch, but that other pens are know to crop up with anomalous clips too (Jade Patrician with clip cap for example). Early product? Late Product? Niche market release?

Dunno. But sharing some trim features but not basic shape with any other known pen seems uncertain basis to lump in with those unspecified other pens.

Man, i gotta get out of this legal stuff and back to medicine :-)

david
http://www.vacumania.com

Another Datum...

I also note having seen pens like the one starting this thread, WITH the typical "purse pen" cap-band but also with the long roller clip. I guess i'd use this to observe that trim does seem to vary on some models and that Green/Gold tends to be one of the most egregious violators of "typical trim" rules. Of course, this one also is gold seal.. most surprising. The only tiny GS purse sized Poised i believe i've seen. Could this be early form of the Pursie? Dunno. For each black n' white Wahl model, too darn many shades of gray



regards

david

Y'all are confusing me.

First, there seems to be a major terminological muddle in play here. Best I can determine you all are using 'clasp' to refer to the short high flat clip. This seems to be due to a mis-reading of the Wahl catalog page. The 'Clasp' referred to therein is actually a pen model depicted at the extreme left of that page and enumerated below the image (the 62 series, available in five colors); it's a mid-sized petite pen a bit longer than the models under discussion, which are termed "Ladies' Purse Models", (image copyright David Isaacson, used without permission):



Not sure why the longer pen is called a Clasp model, though it is possible it was designed to be clipped to a chain via a jewelry clasp, as opposed to the smaller Purse Models, which were intended to be carried in a purse. I do not believe that 'clasp' meant 'clip'; in fact, W-E used the term 'clip' right on that same catalog page.

Also, with all the discussion about whether the twin plain cap bands disqualify the pen as being a Ladies' Purse Model...have we overlooked the Brazilian Green pen in this picture (image copyright David Isaacson, used without permission)?



Put that item together with this one (image stolen off eBay by David Isaacson, used without permission)...



...add some wine, soft lighting, a romantic ink color, and you end up with this (image copyright Epictete92, used without permission):



Note that the Gold Seal gene appears to be recessive.

--Daniel

That wuz fun ;-)

Previous zoss chat etc does make it clear that we have a muddle (a clear muddle!) on Wahl nomenclature. I doubt Syd will disagree, though he of course may do so. In fact of late we've been taking some steps to at least categorize some of these gray zones on Wahl nomenclature and taxonomy. And this thread reveals how some of our attempts to categorize ill defined models bump into turbulence.

You know a bunch of what is to follow but for those who don't, here is a hack-amateur-newbie's observations.

Wahl did not stamp model names on its pens

Wahl from 1927 to 1932 (at least) imposed frantic evolution on its pen lines.

We have copious ads and catalog pages for some of these models, and scant to nil information on others.

Some pens appear to have model names (eg. Doric, Equi-Poised). Other pens tend to be labelled by their features (eg. Gold Seal Personal Point Flat Top OS). Complicating things is that the descriptors just cited perhaps can be used in stand alone fashion for some pens but still apply to other, named, pens (eg. A Doric can be a gold seal personal point OS pen too).

Indeed, Daniel seems to pop right onto one such schizoid use when he notes, "This seems to be due to a mis-reading of the Wahl catalog page. The 'Clasp' referred to therein is actually a pen model depicted at the extreme left of that page and enumerated below the image (the 62 series, available in five colors); it's a mid-sized petite pen

Besides the fact that last night i HAD mixed up that mid size petite pen with a "ladies'" Pen my bad), this IS a case that there is such a thing as a CLASP model as well as Models that HAVE clasps which howevever are not CLASP models, proper. Gives me headache. Wish they didn't call their pens Gold Seal Pens (vs Pens with Gold Seal), etc.

Pens appear which don't quite match any known Wahl Documentation- though clearly some of us have access to more data than do others.

As to the Wahl under discussion today...

I muddled things a bit from the start, by slightly misinterpreting Syd's first comments.

Syd had written, "The pen in question is a 1930-31 Equipoised lady's side clip pen in Bronze -Green "

In fact, the pen fershure has a side clip and probably is meant for ladies, so calling it a Lady's Side Clip pen is a very reasonable discription; indeed as noted earlier the Purse Pens on which i've focused are called "Ladies' Purse Model" by Wahl. In part the muddle from me was assuming Syd meant a non-purse Ladies' pen (which probably was true) mixed with belief that the small clasp Equipoised one size up from Purse Pen was called a Ladies' pen, which it appears NOT so.

Still, there is strong case to link our pen with the Purse models:

1) It is a Purse pen shape
2) That the apparently only known catalog page for these shows only clasps and only one cap-band pattern perhaps does not exclude other forms. A) We know pens evolved over time and that single catalogs are limited. I've seen ringtop PUrse pens in purse pen colors with usual capband, even though catalog does not show them (another zing on the catalog). C) Brazilian Green has history of not always matching typical trim pattern.

Upshot- it is not clear a Purse Pen must have a clasp, as opposed to ring or roller clip.

But, i also agree the two Brazilian Green pens shown above (the initial pen and the gold seal i referenced) might have a bit of an "early" character and might represent a style produced before the catalog page.

But, since there is no other size these pens could match, i do favor a lump in with the purse pens.

Indeed, rwhat with the pen under discussion (non-classic side clip, double band, correct non-GS), the pen i dug up a post or two back (non-classic side clip, classic Purse capband, and non-classic-for-purse Gold Seal) and your note that my old essay indeed shows a third variant (Double Band, correct Clasp and correct non-GS), we now have three variations of a pen which ultimately is shown in this size and shape only as a "Ladies' Purse Pen" in Wahl literature.

One wonders, could these (esp the GS) have been manufactured while wahl was (perhaps) switching from GS Equi-Poised (or equi-poised-like) pens shown in the 1930 Ads to the non-GS thinner Poiseds shown in the 1932 catalog. Anyone up to discuss "Transitional"???

duckingly yours

david

I don't understand why you're using the term 'clasp' to mean 'clip', when it appears that Wahl uses the term 'clasp' not to mean clip. I'm concerned that the term 'clasp', which may have a specific meaning in the context of these pens (and that meaning is not 'clip') may become blurred by this usage as a synonym for clip (or small clip).

Again, WE refers to the model on the left as the 'Clasp Model' and the models on the right as the 'Purse Models', but both are shown with short clips, and the copy above the images uses the term 'clip' when talking about that trim part, not 'clasp'. Clasp in the model name may refer to the attachment device at the end of a chain to which the pen on the left was intended to be attached, whereas the purse pens were not intended to be so attached, but rather carried in a purse -- and, of course, both models have clips. Note that the clasp model is a little larger and is available in arguably fewer feminine colors, and thus it may have been intended for use on a watch chain where it would be attached with a (drum roll...) clasp.

Barring something much more explicit, I urge that we not start using 'clasp' to mean clip in this context, as it can obfuscate (and lose) meaning in WE's nomenclature.

--Daniel

Daniel,

note that i've edited a couple words here n' there in my last post, so please peruse to avoid confusion.

OK, to your next point





Well, i could simply be wholly wrong (yes, i know this would be a shock), or i mite be basing my implied hypothesis regarding the use of clasp based on other stuff in that ol' Wahl catalog. Whether i've got THAT right, we shall have to see...

Four Pages after the purse pen scan we've seen, the 1932 catalog addresses some dorics. Gold Seal Models. Early colors (of course). The big open capband that goes with these.

We see an OS with roller clip, a long standard with roller clip, on prior page a shorter standard (clip at top, still roller) a short pen with a clip similar to the CLASP style we've been gabbing about- except with different decoration- and finally a ring top.

Wahl labels the roller clip seen in the OS and Long Standard a "Side Clip". DC models

Wahl labels the roller clip seen in the shorter standard with clip at top of pen a "Soldier Clip". DSC models

Wahl labels that... well... claspy clip on the short pen a "Clasp". The pen is not called a CLASP model Doric. It is rather a Doric Pen with Clasp (DK Models)

The DK models (Doric with clasp) are described as ideal pen and pencil for ladies purse, with new style clasp for engraving.

Going back to the non-GS Equi-Poised shown on the page you copied). Side clip are called TC models, CLASP model proper carry the TK label (just as Doric WITH clasp is a DK model). The ladies purse pen, which i assert has a clasp also packs a TK code.

Ok... Dorics with clasps (not called CLASP MODELS) have a DK code vs all roller clip pens with DC code

Poised CLASP Models and Pursies (which i assert have clasps too) packa TK model while all side clip epns have a TC code, completing the parallel to Doric.



IF phrases strongly, I would assert (if phrased softly, i would Hypothesize) that CLASP has a meaning in the context of these pens which does mean small non-ball, non-roller clip.



A worthy counter hypothesis. I cite the following to object to it. Wahl notes the Doric with Clasp (DK models, not called a CLASP model) is an ideal model for ladies purse, (with no reference to chains), slightly shorter than side clip models, with new style clasp for engraving.

It is a pen with a new style clasp (in fact a short clip), meant for the purse. Given the purpose cited, given Wahl's history of having Gold Seal Pens and pens with Gold Seals, given the parallel model codes between both of the Poiseds with what i call clasps (TK code on both the CLASP model and the purse pen) and the Doric with clasp (DK code), it seems... reasonable... that the clasp references that short clip and that not all pens with clasps must be CLASP Model, but rather could also be jsut models with clasps.

I would embrace counter points. Any chance to learn...

david

I concur with your analysis; unfortunately, I only have the portions of the catalog(s) that have been posted, so I cannot benefit from the additional data. The terminological anomaly, then, is WE's, for sticking 'Clasp' on a pen model for which, perhaps, they just couldn't come up with a better name.

--Daniel

he terminological anomaly, then, is WE's,

Terminology anomaly. I rather like that.

And, it is a most poignant expression. After all, how much of the discussion and debate revolving around Wahl Pens stems entirely from Wahl's habit to embrace terminology anomalies? ;-)

david

David, the quote I snipped from your last post is the heart of it for me.

Care to box? Lets talk boxes for a while. The box in the your other picture



was used starting in 1930. And assuming the pen and pencil set are in their original box (admittedly unconfirmed unless you might know the history of that set as being in its original box) the pens in it would have been available as early as the Fall of in 1930. I do not think that style box was used in 1932.


One more thing. Jean Elie's pen was is in a French box (I have plenty of French Ads thanks to Max Davis) , that show this very box in ads dated 1930 and 1931.



I don't know if we will ever sort out by deductive reasoning what Wahl-Eversharp meant by "clasp" and what they called a "clip" from one picture, but they did use the term clasp for other pens than the purse pens and, if memory serves, (and it serves less and less these days), these terms were not used to describe pens held by a clasp. Although Daniel may be right about that too at this point. But for me it is that Jean-Elie's pen IS a side clip and all the pics of purse pens and their description says they are not.

So do we agree to dis-agree on the date? What else is new? I go with 1930-31. Purse shmurse.


Yes we are having fun now!

Syd

Like i said, the hospital gives me a good deal on high strength Motrin.

The boxes and the dates on ads in which you've seen those boxes of course are worthy data. What is not clear is what can be concluded from the data.

Part of it stems from the notion that limited snippets of info do not convey the whole continuum of a production era.

If we only had the 1931 Doric ads (no 1932 catalog, no 1932-39 ads), might we wonder if Doric was a 1931-only product? Maybe. If we only had one of those Sat Eve Post 1930 Deco Band flat top ads, what would we make of a Deco Band showing up in a 1927-style box?

I do routinely find Vacs in 1944-style in the wild that have Boxes shown only ~ 1940. What to conclude what to conclude? :-)

IF we accept the big Wahl catalog we tend to reference is a 1932 product, and we accept those boxes are shown in 1930-31 references, then we have many possibilities to consider, some of which overlap. let's consider a couple.

Purse pens are shown in the 1932 catalog but could've been produced for a couple years at either end around this???

or...

Purse-pen-sized Poiseds (both GS and non GS) could've been issued before the Purse Pen term was coined? How would we know?

I do believe there are purse pen variants out there not shown in that one 1932 catalog

best

david

Perhaps it's a French-market variant? Don't forget that the pen, as well as the box, are apparently French-market.

--Daniel