I've noticed that people like flex. (They seem to get snatched up pretty fast in the Marketplace!) So I'm curious: what style do you use it on? Non flex users, please vote for the style that is most pleasing to your eyes.

-Hana

I think I've made up my own version of Spencerian writing but I'm not sure. I was inspired by old family letters dating back to 1830 where you can see the thick/thin line stroke. I mostly use dip pens to get that effect but I do have one flexy Wahl and a nice Waterman Hundred Year pen that also come close.

Do you have writing samples up? Sounds interesting!

-Hana

I seem to be technologically challenged so there are no posts of my handwriting. I could write to you if you'd like.

Hana, I think you need to post examples of both styles so we can see what you mean!

I have been playing with a flex italic nib for a while, but I haven't really had any good exemplars to follow that make use of both attributes.

I have been thinking of finding some exemplars and learning secretary script because I think it would fit a flex italic quite well. It would be rather an impractical activity though because it isn't exactly the most legible of handwriting to the uninitiated, and it fell out of favour in the early 19th century.

Brian Walker's

Lupfer's Spencerian

Certificate is in Copperplate, and signatures are in Spencerian.

To me, Copperplate looks more feminine and Spencerian more masculine.

Spencerian seems to have more dramatic changes in thick & thin line variations.

-Hana

I've been refering to the style that I want to write in as Copperplate/Spencerian.... when infact it is going to be a little eairler period..... roundhand...? nah.... that was much eairlier..... or maybe there are two differnt styles of roundhand.... (see.... that's why I call it Copperplate/Spencurian.....)

I'm looking at the time when people wrote with quill pens.... but I want the ease of a fountain pen.....

I'm not going to get "stuck" with one style.... but using the style for a good solid base for my writting.... (dang I hope that made sence...)

So I will practise CP/S (hey ... I'm getting tired of typing Copperplate/ Spencerian...) then start to modify it and look as some period documents to get it to the style that I want.....

Dang.... it would be so much eaiser if there was a "Pyrate" style O' writting........

Could you show us an example of such a writing, please?

I wonder if pirates wrote in fancy script..

-Hana

Well right now I only have the Parker(slight flex nib...but kinda broad....) or a dip pen to write with....... (can do CP/S with a dip pen)...

If the pen I just ordered works... then I gotta do a bunchs post......

Not "exactly" Pyrate...... but I want a "nice" hand to write with.... Going for style.... not period correct.....

May I suggest you trying reservoir dip pen nibs also? I recently tried some and was plesantly surprised at the amount of ink they hold and the flex. The flex is somewhat limited but adequate for good line width differences.

I was told at one time that true "Spencerain" is properly done with an offset nib. The offset is the reason the line variation is more in the 'east-west' direction rather than the 'north-south'.

Ron

Ohh, so THAT'S how one uses a flex nib properly :doh:

I sampled a flex nib for the very first time at a pen shop today (uh oh Now I really want one ). I actually found it quite easy to write with in my own style of handwriting, and loved the way my words looked at the end....but looking at those samples above...I'm waaaay off

You should definitely get one if you can write with it and enjoy it! :ph34r:

-Hana

problem...no $$ at the moment

:doh:

Fine Flex nibs are bad.... no one should even think of buying one.... They are bad bad bad.....















(well untill I can get a good very fine, very flexable nib to write with.... )

My German Pen almost works..... but still looking for something even better......

I dislike Flex, and neither Copperplate nor Spencerian looks very good to me.

Parker nibs from the 40's-60's, Montblanc nibs and today Duofold nibs I find them perfect and well balanced.

You should be able to use ALL the different writing styles in a given work to change the dynamic range of your ideas. This would allow you to express yourself much the same as if you were playing a musical instrument. Notice how a "good" band can take a so-so tune and make it into pure dynamite by manipulation of the dynamic range, ornamentation, chord background, etc. You should be able to do the same thing with the written word, using different writing styles for emphasis. Using a flexible nib can facilitate the communication of nuances of your thoughts. Spencerian, copperplate, italic, or just rough-and-dammit-tumble script can add spice to your writing, but you need a flexible nib to get you there.

Paddler

Has anyone any experience with what might be called flex/stub? I like to write with a cursive italic (or to be more honest, using the effects of thick and thin in the nib). I have been wondering whether a little flex in the nib would somewhat reproduce the effect of a quill.

Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree; but I am about to order a Dani Trio Mikado from our very own Winedoc and I would like some advice about the nib. Should I ask for a medium flex and/or is there such a thing as a stub flex?

I like the old 18th century style of calligraphy (like you would see in the colonial and Revolutionary War-era documents), so I think this would be copperplate.

I never had specific training in any of the formal scripts, but I love a good calligraphic line, so I just make up my own. This is from our wedding invitations...

Since someone bumped this thread, just wanted to say belatedly that the addressing on the envelope looks beautiful, perstylo, and ask what ink you used.

Reserructed thread! yay! What happens if one likes Spencerian and Copperplate, and refuses to say which one they like better?

If you're interested in this kind of thing, check out the Ornamental_Penmanship Yahoo group. Dr Joe Vitolo has some incredible samples of his writing and freely offers advice. http://www.iampeth.com/lessons.htm is a nice link for some online material... get ready to practice hours and hours each day!

I know that this is outside the scope of this thread, but I felt that those who haven't yet been aware of your superb artwork should have a look at your "My Little Website of Illustrations". Your artistic talent extends way beyond calligraphy.

caliken

which flex nib style do i prefer?

i prefer legible over illegible...LOL

I hadn't seen this thread before, so I'm glad it resurfaced. It allowed me to see that what I'd like to learn to capture in my writing is a style that is my own but which leans towards copperplate.

I will be receiving a Namiki Falcon medium in the next few days, and I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of line it can produce. I'm hoping to get about the same amount of variation that one might get in a cursive italic nib. The kind of variation one gets in from the start to the end of the downstroke (as described on Richard's site) that you see if a nib has some flex is what I'm after. I hope it's what I'm looking for!

Stephen

The nibs I've used so far have very little flex.
Has anyone used the Lamy Joy? With what result?
How would you rate the flex on this one?
p2p

I like flex because it acts as a "shock absorber" on the nib hitting the paper, a sensation that I dislike: I have a very light touch, and also dislike feeling resistance from the surface.

I've seen a few pens that have flex without change in the width of the line as a result, and I like those too. In fact, I get very little line variation using a flex nib, since I hardly push hard enough to (unless I'm doing it on purpose).

I voted for my own style but, that is not completely true. The style I used is refered to simplely as Cursive Droite in my copybook, Recueil Méthodique de Principes d'Ecriture by Annick Des Grieux. The name of the style would translate to Upright Cursive, and is similar to Microsoft Office's French Script font. I will post a sample when I have acces to a scanner or digital camera. (35mm and camera phone are the only cameras I have right now)

Recueil Méthodique de Principes d'Ecriture

thanks for that fantastic reference Hélène

Ehhh...I dunno...I like both almost equally. Copperplate wins by a wee bit.

The sort of "free-style" copperplate is really eye pleasing especially if you add pictures into the words. Though sometimes they're hard to read.

I like Spencerian the best, but I'm not good enough with it yet to use it instead of my own joined-block style.

My favorite all-around nib, however, is a Waterman Pink.

Best,
Summer Greer

I was reading through this thread and found some points on which I’d like to comment.

Spencerian seems to have more dramatic changes in thick & thin line variations.

Comment: I was reading a 19th century book on Spencerian penmanship and found this: There is less variation in thick/thin in Spencerian handwriting. There is thickness in some, but not all down strokes. The author stated that there was to be no more than three thicknesses in a word of nine letters. I'm sorry that I don't have the reference information for this. I have noticed, in looking at primary source samples of 19th century handwriting, e.g., autograph albums, personal letters, and invoices, that there is very little variation in thick/thins. In using 19th and early 20th century dip pens, I find some nibs to be quite flexible and others stiff. With that kind of variety, the degree of thick/thin will certainly vary with the pen used. My copyright 1868 copybook of Ladies’ Hand Spencerian handwriting contains exemplars for the student to copy. They have just enough thicks in down strokes to make the writing visually interesting, unlike the Palmer method, which has no variation. In Copperplate, aka Roundhand, all down strokes are emphasized by thickness.

Copperplate looks more feminine and Spencerian more masculine.

Comment: I think Spencerian is more feminine in appearance than Copperplate. Most of the Spencerian handwriting I have seen was written with a fine, rather stiff nib. I have seen some having hairline and broad lines, of course, depending upon the pen used. Spencer advocated two handwritings, one for men and one for ladies. I have in my collection a Spencerian instruction book, copyright 1868, called “Ladies’ Series”. According to Tamara Plakins Thornton (HANDWRITING IN AMERICA: A CULTURAL HISTORY), Spencer wrote his personal letters using the ladies’ hand because it was considered more heartfelt, though a quick review of the text leaves me unable to reference the passage at this time. Thornton does make lengthy reference to the feminization of handwriting in the 19th century and discusses on pages 62 and 63, for example, Spencer’s inspiration (waves of grain, pebbles and shells) and the comments of others on the handwriting style. Palmer’s idea was to masculinize handwriting and developed his relatively unflorished style. Consider Palmer’s attitude as part of a trend toward masculinity in design. For example, think about the difference between the several styles of Victorian interior decoration and the newer, turn of the century styles such as Mission.

Spencerian needs an oblique nib.

Comment: Copperplate is done with an oblique (offset) nib, which allows the uniformly thick lines in the down strokes. Nib catalogues I’ve seen show many straight nibs and an occasional oblique. All19th and early 20th century dip pens I’ve seen have straight nibs. Spencerian handwriting was done by holding a straight nib in a particular way to take advantage of the flex in adding thickness to only some of the letters. 19th century Spencerian instruction books specify how the pen is to be held and the position of the hand for proper writing. I’ve seen illustrations of hand braces to help train the writer in the proper hand positioning.

I recommend Thornton's book to anyone interested in the history of handwriting.

Japanese pen buyers (I don't mean collectors) almost all prefer very fine nibs. Some Japanese pen makers use Western nibs for orders that require nibs larger than that.

The preference is for 'softness' and I have noticed that my Japanese friends seldom utilise a thicker line. Asian writing of the same size as Western writing is more complex in structure and needs a fine nib.

In summary some flexible nibs are designed solely for the feel of the pen when writing - other flex nibs are intended to flex and give the thick lines needed for these classic Western hands such as Copperplate.

Solitaire

I voted Copperplate, but I love the curliness of Spencerian.

I don't understand, what is the difference?

Dear Members of The Fountain Pen Network;

Personally speaking, purely my observations and opinions; writng styles can give a person the foundation of forming 'handwriting' skills but, the person creates their own style once out of the school room and into daily life.

As some have gathered, I love history and currently researching American Civil War history, to which my focus of late, has been on the Batallion of US Marines that marched from Washington, DC to the battlefields of First Bull Run/Manassas. It would be the first total land deployed force of US Marines in the American Civil War, they were raw recruits and little training.

The Commandant of the US Marine Corps, having considered my request, had the USMC archivist send me a Xerox copy of the Muster Roll of August 1861; 147 years ago. Unfortunately, the Xerox copy is extremely awful and the muster roll book has been reduced when copied and out of alignment. But, my intent is to offer a glimpse into the handwriting of the military in that period.

It is my assumption, that this roll call/roll/muster is written with a steel nib.

Perhaps, too often we, in general, can be intimidated by the elegant flourishes of the written style in its most lofty places, such as certificates, invitations and formal occasions. Every day writing though, may give some hope to those who are frustrated because they lack the ruffles and flourishes of their chosen style.

The attached file is copyrighted.

Respectfully,
Maria

Thanks for sharing that document, Maria,
That's beautiful. I can imagine that the original is breathtaking.

These old written documents live and breathe.

My aspiration is to write a good italic - so maybe I shouldn't be in this flex nib conversation - but get a great kick from all of these different writing styles.
And I love flex nibs too.

Solitaire

Welcome to FPN, offscott

This is a huge subject, as Copperplate Style script and Spencerian lettering are totally different from each other. The only thing in common, is that they are both written with pointed nibs which flex open on downstrokes, when a little pressure is applied.
Engrosser's script is the drawn version of the style of lettering originally known as English Roundhand. Copperplate is the written form.

If you go here You'll find all the information you need.

Good luck!

caliken

This is an interesting document, Maria - thanks for posting.