I am amazed by the awful handwriting I see coming from intelligent, educated people--and vice versa. I am not speaking of calligraphy, which is as much art work as writing. No, I speak of the everyday writing we do--grocery lists, short memos, notes to ourselves and others. Do you like your handwriting? Do you make an effort to improve it?

I practice whenever I have a pen in my hand. I'm obsessed. :ph34r:

-Hana

I went for the legibility over beauty option. The primary function of writing is to communicate, either to another person or to ones future self. To be sustainable as a means of communication, it has to be capable of being done quickly, and this brings a trade-off. Whilst it's nice to write attractively and nice to read attractive writing, it is nowhere near as important as creating and viewing something legible.

Ray

I wish there was a legibly beautiful option, as I completely agree that one should be able to fully appreciate the beauty of the writing by understanding its contents.

-Hana

edit: grammar

A long while ago, when I was at college, I was discussing art and design and plans for the future, and was asked by a guest lecturer what the objective on my résumé was:

``To make beautiful books.''

She then asked, ``You mean books with meaning, don't you?''

``How can there be beauty without meaning?''

William

I certainly try to work on my writing. I've noticed an inverse relationship to writing and typing. the more I write, the worse my typing gets and vice versa.



-Bruce

So am I. If by "vice versa" you mean lovely handwriting coming from the apparently unintelligent and uneducated, I saw a homeless guy's cardboard sign that had been written in lovely cursive, with shading even. I really should've given him a dollar, just for that, but I was in traffic in the wrong lane.

Ringtop

The whole reason I started using a fountain pen was my desire to make my handwriting beautiful. I wish I could use my italic for everyday writing like James Pickering and others, but it is just not fast enough. But I believe my cursive (with some personal adaptations) makes my correspondence stand out.

I care more about if it's readable. I really don't work on making it beautiful, I confess.

Although not all beautiful handwriting is legible, I note that there is a certain beauty in all legible handwritings. I've abandoned beauty coming from my hand, and aim for legible in the hope that attaining this will at least avoid ugliness...

Doug

My handwriting is really quite wretched, I think in large part because I spent many years focused on writing fast rather than on writing carefully, and only recently have started to try to do something about it. So, I'm working on it, but I have a ways to go.

I have started posting to my blog in longhand though, which helps; if I know that I'm writing for others to read, I'm motivated to make it as painless for them as possible.

When I first saw one of James' exemplars shortly after I joined FPN, I knew I wanted to write like that.

My handwriting has vastly improved from my former simian scrawl. However, my ability does not yet even begin to approach the level of James' exemplars.

In a way, it reminds me of my first serious attempt at playing a musical instrument. After attending a concert of guitar music performed by Andres Segovia, I became entranced by the instrument. I took lessons (for several years). Practiced daily. Acquired some modest skill. And realized that I would never, ever, achieve that level of mastery. But I really enjoyed what I was able to do. BTW, I have let my ability fall by the wayside through lack of time to practice.

Likewise, I enjoy writing using italic minuscules. I may never achieve James' level of proficiency, but I want to be producing far better characters than I do now at this time next year, both in daily writing, where speed & legibility are paramount, and in my journal, where I can take the time to form the letters in a more leisurely fashion.

Well done! I hope you received a high grade in that class.

I voted 'somewhat important' because I try to use the best handwriting I can, but I'm not trying to make it a work of art.

Stumpy (and anyone else), by the way, I saw your entry in the italic competition and want to ask you something. Your minuscule d's have the reverse ascender slant that I've seen in 18th century British captain's logs and that sort of thing. In other ways, the forms are very much "italic." My question is, what is the "name" of that kind of writing? Also, how do you form that reverse ascender. It seems that wouldn't be too hard with a regular fountain pen, but for any edged nib (or quill) one would have to push against the edge.

I really like the appearance (I call it the "face") of writing peppered with those "contrary" ascenders, and was just wanting to learn more about the style.

Doug

P.S. One of my goals handwriting-wise, is to be able to write as legibly as the captains (or 1st mates) who recorded those ships logs. They were seemingly written with great ease in what must have been challenging circumstances (at least some of the time). And you can read them quite easily after all these years.

P.P.S Here's a link to an entry in Captain Cook's log that can serve as kind of an example:
A page from Capt. Cook's journal

P.P.P.S Oh, sorry, but here's another one:
Another entry in Cook's log

While I admire very neat cursive or printed writing, I actually
enjoy the idiosyncrasies and various degrees of messiness of cursive writing.
And while i prefer a legible letter, occasional illegible words make it
interesting in a mysterious way.

I have bad doctor handwriting. My print varies between "illegible," and "possibly a foreign language, but at least they look like words." That being said, I have decided to switch to cursive handwriting in an effort to force myself to concetrate on my handwriting.

I decided it after reading this article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15229032/

I am not exactly old, but I still do remember a time when we were made to practice handwriting in school, and I have a habit of trying to keep a hold of those things, because I think they are important.

[edit]fixed wrong link[/edit]

I think people used to write with the reverse ascender d, because the quill lays down more ink. If you try to write a more modern "d" with a quill, you'll notice that the ascender becomes swollen with ink.

Just my theory.

-Hana

Maybe in addition to teaching the penmanship side of writing more attention should be given to the content as well.

"Less Students Learning Cursive Handwriting" ???

I have never thought of that, Hana -- I have always used that "reversed ascender" d letterform (nice description Doug) when rendering various medieval writing hands, however, I render the "modern" d using a quill with no difficulty.

Exemplar written on Cowley manuscript vellum using a hand-cut reservoired goose quill:

Pickering san,

I wonder if you mean italics, or longhand. I meant longhand, which would require going down and over the ascender twice on the same spot.

Or maybe I'm just not very good with the quill. :doh:

-Hana

Please describe longhand, Hana.

James

The letters are joined together in longhand, aka "cursive".

-Hana

I see, Hana, I just wanted to get your definition.

Of course, cursive does not necessarily mean all the letters are joined together -- many of the later renaissance Italic writing masters (such as Cataneo, Amphiareo, Lucas, et al) used a Cancellaresca corsiva (Chancery cursive) hand in which the letterforms stood alone -- without joins.

The Webster dictionary definition for cursive writing is:

flowing often with the strokes of successive characters joined ..........

The definition for running hand is ..........

handwriting in which the letters are usually slanted and all the words formed without lifting the pen.

.......... which is what I think you meant.

James

Yes! That's it!

But according to Wikipedia: 'Cursive is any style of handwriting in which all the letters in a word are connected, making a word one single (complicated) stroke. In British English, the phrase "joined-up writing" is far more commonly used, while the term "running writing" is sometimes used in Australia. Cursive is considered distinct from the so-called "printing" or "block letter" style of handwriting, in which the letters of a word are unconnected, and from "print-writing", which is a cross between cursive and printing, with some unconnected letters and some connected.'

Does it need editing? Or are the differences a regional thing?

-Hana

I am happy if the reader can understand my simplified Z-B.

Here is snippet from a document I wrote with a hand-cut, reservoired, goose quill that illustrates the "reverse ascender" d letterform that Doug mentioned:

Well, of course, Hana we should not put a lot of faith in Wikipedia for definitive information -- after all it is nothing more than a compilation of input from individuals of the WWW population at large.



I was born and grew up in Burnley Lancashire, England where I learned and studied calligraphy, bookbinding and letterform wood block cutting (in 1939) -- we never used the term "joined-up writing" that I can remember, but we did use "running hand" in the sense I outlined and similarly "cursive" writing the way I outlined. (I don't know about Australia) We used Johnston & Hewitt as our reference texts. More to the point, the Italian writing renaissance masters described their own unjoined letterform writing as corsiva (cursive).

Were you thinking of Johnston's "print-script" when you referred to "print-writing", Hana?

James

I meant nothing by it-- I just left it there as part of the quote. :ph34r:

I thought "print script" is the most basic form of writing taught in schools.

I believe Wikipedia may have gotten their definition from sources like Princeton University's WordNet, which also states that cursive is a "rapid handwriting in which letters are set down in full and cursively connected within words without lifting the writing implement from the paper."

-Hana

Yes, Hana, there are many definitions extant that differ in some degree. As you can imagine in my sixty seven years of teaching and rendering a multitude of writing hands I have encountered numerous ones. I prefer to use the Dictionary definitions because that reference is available universally -- of course I am also somewhat biased because the Dictionary definitions coincide with the ones I was taught and have used for many years.

Pertinent to our specific discussion, Stephen Harvard (surely one of the most eminent and respected American letter artists) points out in his introduction to the published facsimile Cataneo Manuscript: "..... another sign of the formality of Cataneo's corsiva is that virtually each letter stands alone; there are none of the diagonal joins that inevitably develop in a true running script."

Cancellaresca corsiva is characterized by generous, kerned, ascenders and descenders, flourished or swash majuscules (capitals) and with the individual letters often joined -- sometimes as a running hand -- but not always.

Paul Standard treats "running hand" as a subset of cursive writing:

Thank you very much for your lessons, sir! They are always much appreciated.

-Hana

I hope I don't come across as lecturing, Hana. I like to think this is a meaningful discussion between equals -- an interchange of information which, in this case, serves to clarify what each of us means when we use the terminology outlined.

No, no, I wasn't being sarcastic. Really, I learn a lot from you.

-Hana

hey i thought everybody used joined up handwriting = cursive? If not what do they do- print??

This has been a very informative discussion. I wish to thank Hana and Mr. Pickering for using the terms they have. I guess it shows there is always something to learn and someone who can teach.

Ron

Print, or type. Computers show up in classrooms pretty early these days, at least in the wealthier parts of the world.

Very important. I write the alphabet on a piece of paper, at the very least, 10 times a day, and I also practise various handwriting styles and scripts.

You sound sorta obsessed! ...as am I!

-Hana

Drat... kinda got caught up in the thread.... and had to go back and look up the topic.....

Handwritting quality.....

About three years ago, I decided that I was tired of my poor handwritting (Crab hand... lefty...) So I decided to re-learn how to write.... played with some different styles.... wanted to come up with a "good Hand" (Pretty just dosen't sound very manly.... )

Having fun with it.... (and now about to have even more with my new pen... fine line very flexable nib..... so I can do cool roundhand......)

Anyway....

Now.... I kinda like having people tell me what "nice handwritting" I have......

I have to practice a lot more.... but it is fun..........

Erik, I think you're smart with this, I did it at your age also. It'll pay off for the rest of your life. Outside of anything else, at times your writing will precede your presence with strangers. Indeed, it may be the only tangible piece that strangers will have of you. Sloppy, poor handwriting still indicates the same mental processes to many--provided you're not a Nobel laureate!

The appearance of my handwriting is somewhere between "very important" and "somewhat important" to me. I do work at trying to make my ordinary handwriting [not calligraphy] look nice and uniform, but I have discovered something that is hard to explain ---- if I'm focused too much on the appearance of my writing while I'm actually writing a letter, my handwriting gets worse. If I focus on what I want to say, my handwriting seems to improve.

Does anyone remember those "inner game" books that were so popular a few years ago -- The Inner Game of Tennis and The Inner Game of Music to name a couple? I think some of the concepts in these books apply to handwriting. Maybe somebody should write The Inner Game of Handwriting.

Judybug

the palmer script isn't the most artfully beautiful of them all but it's beaautiful in its evenness and it's the most readable. any handwriting that is consistent in its curves and slants and lines, even if they are not so ornate, i consider beautiful. much more so when it's readable. what's the point of having very beautiful handwriting when you can't read it? might as well make it a drawing.

Re:

"I wish I could use my italic for everyday writing like James Pickering and others, but it is just not fast enough."

Though James Pickering (who writes an unjoined Italic) will likely disagree, in my experience and observation those who admire Italic but find it too slow can increase their speed by using certain joins — NOT, mind you, ALL the joins theoretically possible in Italic!

If you use only those joins that form either straight horizontals ( - as in "on" or "ti") or straight diagonals ( / as in "an" or "li"), you can pile on quite a bit of speed without loss of legibility or "Italic-ness."
One large-scale (25,000 people) 1950s UK study of Italic versus other handwriting styles established that Italic writers wrote about one-and-a-half times as fast as non-Italic writers of the same age and equal legibility. (The Italic-writers in this study wrote an Italic with joins.)

Other things to do for speed in Italic involve re-ordering the strokes of some capitals: what I describe below reflects historical practices (as documented in the handwriting-research volume THE ORIGIN OF THE SERIF by Edward Catich), so actually this amounts to restoring the historical stroke-order for these capitals:

"A" and "H" —
Instead of doing these as left side -> right side -> middle,
do them as left side -> middle -> right side
(the sides both go top-down, the middle goes left-to-right)

"D" —
Instead of having two top-down strokes (the straight and the curved stroke),
start with an "L" shape and continue the end of the "L" back to (and possibly past) the top of the "L" shape.

"E" —
Many people learn to do this as vertical -> top -> middle -> bottom
or as vertical -> top -> bottom -> middle,
but try it as: "L" shape -> top -> middle if you do not already do it that way.

"F" —
Instead of the usual modern vertical -> top -> middle,
try it as top -> vertical -> middle:
with the horizontal strokes (top and middle) both done left-to-right

"I" —
Instead of the usual vertical -> top -> bottom,
try top -> vertical -> bottom:
again, with the horizontals (top and bottom) done left-to-right

"J" —
pretty much the same as "I":
instead of putting the horizontal stroke on as the last thing,
write the horizontal stroke *first* (left to right)
and THEN go into the rest of the "J."

"T" —
well, here I differ from Catich: he recommends always writing the horizontal top of capital "T" before the vertical, but for me this works well only in ALL-CAPITALS writing. When I have lower-case writing (with its efficiency of joining the "t"-crossbar into the next letter), I want to make the capital "T" with the cross-bar last, just as I make the lower-case "t" — particularly when I write in English, because so many English sentences and proper names start with "Th" ...

"Y" —
just a little tip of my own here: you get a much faster "Y" (and I think a usually much nicer one) if you don't lift the pen within the letter. Do the left arm (top-to-bottom), do the right arm (top-to-bottom) and down into the stem: but don't lift the pen at any point (even during your journey between the bottom of the left arm and the top of the right arm). Try it about 20 times, with a careful eye, and see ...

Well yeah, I have school. I get to write a lot when I'm taking notes or get bored in class.

Same exact thing I do in class! lol

-Hana

Although my normal hand is my drafting hand, I’ve been practicing my cursive and
italic lettering everyday for the last two months, the biggest improvement for me
came when I got my nib reground!

Without starting a new thread......

If you are trying to improve youre handwritting.......

1. Do you practice with a linned "guide sheet" below the paper....

2. Do you worry about the "Propper Slant" or form of the letters.....

3. After reading an 1800s penmanship manual... describing how you should use your whole arm to form the letters.... do you try to re-learn how to do that......

4. And question "why bother"..... other than you want your writting to look beter......


I could have lived very happly if I had never found this Forum..... just playing with my writting..... But I did.......It kinda happens that way............ and to find that there are others playing (or workiung hard ) at improving their writting...... SO how or what are others doing to do so........

I assume you're addressing everyone, so my answers to your questions are:

1. No, I fear I'd come to rely too heavily upon it.

2. Slants should come naturally with the proper positionings of the hand and paper.

3. I spent weeks weaning myself off of my modern strangle hold of writing utensils, in order to write in the proper way.

4. Why bother? I feel I could achieve it, and so I try. Also, I want to make my letters more pleasurable to their recipients-- letters are part of an old art, so why not go the extra mile to better put them in the mood? (Now if only I could improve the contents of these letters! :doh: )

-Hana

At the moment I am working very hard to make my handwriting more legible. It is one of the greatest drives in me at the moment. When other people and read what I normally write easily, then I am going to work on good handwriting. Baby-steps.