A short time ago, I discovered the joy of stub nibs on a variety of pens; Sheaffer, Bexley, Dupont. You can't imagine my joy and delight at finding that Richard Binder offers specialty nibs for my Namiki VP.

That delight was quickly replaced by fear and trepidation when I discovered all the decisions I have to make. Being a righty, I have ruled out Richard's 'right foot' oblique italics, but that still leaves the cursive italic, the crisp italic, their counterparts with the 'left foot' oblique and, of course, the stub. Life was so much easier when the nib choices were a regular round nib - of whatever size - or a stub.

So are their any recommendations? And please don't tell me to look at the handwiting samples on Richard's website. I realize they are supposed to be helpful, but the styles are all perfect, and oh so different, that my puny brain can't relate them to my own style.

Thanks.

John T.

Hi John T.

Richard Binder is a busy man as are most of the nib specialists but he is by all accounts a nice guy and will do his best to help out where he can.

If you were to e-mail him, perhaps with a sample of your handwriting, and ask for his suggestions and comments on nib types, styles etc I would expect that you would get a reasoned and cogent answer, it might take him a couple of days to get round to it, as I said he is, to judge from other postings, very busy.

I haven't used Richard's services and skills but he is, along with the several other nib specialists who post on this forum well thought and spoken of by those that have.

Best of luck in your quest.

Cheers John

With things like nib grinding choices, I'd say the best thing is to try some of the options in person. Descriptions can be very useful and for people who live far from B&M (brick and mortar) stores, it may be the only option...but there is no substitute for trying the nib in person, IMHO.

The Peikan M series (m200, etc) have some oblique nibs, and some Lamy pens (Safari, Studio) come with crisp italics, so if the store will allow you to try one out...... Cursive italics? Good question! I can't think of any factory CI nibs off hand, so if someone knows of any...
I have two CI nibs done by Pendemonium's nibmeister and all I can say is that they are like crisp italics but the CI nib is *less* likely to catch on your writing paper (due to its rounded edges). Hope that helps a bit.

I wouldn't rule out a right foot oblique either. I got Richard to make me one (I'm a righty) and liked it more than my left foot oblique, which I sold. The right foot gives me thick lines on the downstroke and thin on the side stroke, like writing with an italic if you held it perpendicular to the lines on the paper.

Another option is at a pen show where Richard is set up; he has nibs you can test and compare.

Bill

If you don't have a lot of experience with italic nibs, you can rule out the crisp italic nib immediately. Richard makes a lovely crisp italic--you can cut your finger on the corners and it makes an incredible line, but it not easy to use. He make one for me and I used it a few times and then traded it to Susan Wirth. Susan was nuts about it and sold it for 3 or 4 times the worth of the pen and nib work--but that is part of Susan's magic, in matching a user and the right pen and you are not paying for the pen as much as Susan's match-maker services!

For your VP, I would suggest an oblique. It will likely be the easiest to use, given the clip position of the pen and the way most folks hold a VP, and Richard is experienced at putting an oblique point on VP nibs--that's what he uses on his own VP, I believe.

An oblique nib can give every bit the line variation of an italic nib, but can be much easier to use.

Dan

I thought obliquity had nothing to do with line variation? It's just meant to compensate for writers who rotate their pens. Per Richard Binder's always-useful site, "Most modern obliques are ordinary round nibs, not designed to produce line variation."

I would suggest a stub. It gives a subtler variation than an italic and is easy to write with. To my eye, you still get plenty of variation and interest with a stub, but it's not so "calligraphy" looking.

However, if you think you want the greater variation that an italic would provide, here's what Richard has to say about a cursive italic: "When properly ground and finished, a cursive italic can produce stroke variation almost as strong as an italic while writing nearly as smoothly as a stub of similar width."

I want to brag on Susan a bit also. If you can get to a show where she is setup - plan on spending some time there. You will leave with knowledge and probably a pen and nib that actually fits you.

Ron

As it happens I just went through exactly this decision making process.

Richard advised me agains the crisp italic and pointed me toward a stub or cursive italic.

He also suggested that I not look at a 15 deg. instead of a 30 deg.

Mine will show up soon (also for a VP) and I'll let you know what I think of it.

Sonia--

That there chile boy Binder has WAY too much book learnin'! (rural American dialect)

Richard is correct with regard to the obliques that Pelikan and several other German and Italian are putting out these days. However, with regard to the way Parker and some other makers still makes obliques the traditional way.

But pictures speak louder than words, so take a look at this writing sample.

Bill--I'm confused: you talk about a stub or cursive italic, but also 15/30 degrees, which implies an oblique. Which are you getting?

best, Dan

15 deg. Cursive left-foot oblique italic.

Take a look on Binder under specialty nibs for details. I went for the .7 mm. version. We shall see.........

.7 mm is a nice width, on the narrow side, so it will have wide application for you. I bet you will be thrilled!

Dan

This dog here has four legs. But what if we call his tail a leg, then how many legs does he have?

Four. Calling a tail a leg does not make it one. What Parker et al. are making is oblique italics, no matter what they are calling them.

Calling an oblique italic by only the name "oblique" implies that merely being oblique (defined by AHD4 as "Having a slanting or sloping direction, course, or position; inclined") causes a nib to produce line variation. It's a false premise, as is obvious from the fact that oblique nibs exist that do not produce line variation. There is a real area of confusion created by the elliptical nomenclature, and that's the reason I'm so insistent on using the complete terminology.

If they would make obliques properly, Richard, we could use one word terms (italic, oblique) to describe them!

On a more serious note, I respect your desire to name and describe nibs fully. But I suspect you are projecting backwards terms that did not exist at the time that many oblique nibs were made. I don't think the makers, in other words, called their nibs oblique italics, etc. I don't think they would have sold too many pens if they had used seven words to describe a nib, as Bill is forced to do above! Further, using a standard dictionary definition for a rather specialized area--not really apples to apples, in my mind. If we were talking another speciality area and I used a term specific to that area, would you use a general definition to refute me? Of course not!

Now, back to oblqiues. I am aware that from rather early on, some pen makers offered obliques that didn't offer much (if any) line variation and presented them as being suitable for left-handed writers. At the same time, then and now, other makers offered oblques that were, in your more precise term, italic obliques (or was that oblique italics--oh no, I'm confused!). I'm going to guess that the italic obliques were largely stimulated by the German makers, who marked their pens OF, OM, OB (not OIF etc., note!) and the italic style of oblique spread out from those German makers.

On a not very related note, I've talked to Rick Propas about my theory that the much larger number of stub and oblqiue nibs found in vintage German pens compared to any other countries ratio of round points to speciality points must relate to the wide-spread and continued use of black letter writing to the 1940s. He couldn't refute the idea and was inclined (mildly) to agree. Any thoughts on this from you?

Dan

I can't refute your hypothesis with hard data, but I tend not to agree with it. So far as I can tell, German handwriting (since the advent of fountain pens) was not generally done in a Blackletter style any more than British handwriting was done in a Blackletter style (of which Old English faces are a subset). I have a "handwriting" font on my computers called P22 Dearest. It's a seriously "real world" synthesis, not an idealized one, that is based on 19th-century German originals. It shows no italic characteristics; just as British or American handwriting of that period shows the flex that we associate with Round Hand, so does this font.

Dan, what grind did Viv put on your "51" desk pen?

That vintage Pel 400 OBB does give good line variation at least in your hand and certainly Pelikan's nib chart would indicate the OBB should for everyone. But I've read a number of times on FPN that the chart is misleading. Is your vintage nib more expressive than a modern OBB?

What does 'CN' mean?

Richard wrote: ...but I tend not to agree with it. So far as I can tell, German handwriting (since the advent of fountain pens) was not generally done in a Blackletter style any more than British handwriting was done in a Blackletter style....

The weakness in my theory (or a prime weakness, anyway) is that when the use of black letter into the 1940s is mentioned, I am never sure whether this refers to its use in print or in writing. From what you write, it's probably the use of Frakhur lettering in print. But there must be a reason for the larger percentage of obliques and stubs/italics made by German pen makers and I still maintain it to be rooted in differences in lettering styles, but perhaps not black letter in particular.

Here's a bit of the Wikipedia article on black letter to supplement the discussion: In the 19th century, the use of antiqua alongside Fraktur increased, leading to the Antiqua-Fraktur dispute, which lasted until the Nazis abandoned Fraktur in 1942. Since it was so common, all kinds of blackletter tend to be called fraktur in German. This distinctive typeface was a great aid to the Allies in World War II, being particularly easy for forgers to duplicate by hand.

What I notice now and didn't previously is the repeated use of the word "typeface," implying printed materials. On the other hand, the last sentence refers to handwriting.

Dan

Morgana--

I don't know what term Vivek would use to describe in. It was a bold steel nib he ground into an oblique. For all the dramatic flair it gives the line, it is far easier to use than any straight italic or even any stub I've ever used. Vivek says obliques are comparatively easy to grind, I say he has a particular genius for them--the argument remains unsettled in my mind!

That OBB has no round tipping at all, just a long slanted chisel edge. It is not much like the nib Pelikan calls an OBB today. Mine may be cut at a steeper angle than the typical oblique--I need to look at it again, but it is extreme enough that it requires a little care in how it's used.

During WW II, gold was a strategic material for the Germans and was less and less available for nib making. The pen makers used alloy nibs and Pelikan called theirs "CN." It appears that stands for chrome-nickel, but I can't confirm that. Many Pelikan 100 come with a CN nib and while they are not valued as much as the 14K nibs, they ought not be scorned--they are wonderful writers and I have two great ones.

Dan

Gee - I had an OBB on my M1000 and I replaced it with a F (I think) as it was much friendlier for normal writing. Maybe I should pop it back on (easy to do on these pens) and give it another try. These very broad nibs aren't much use for taking notes or writing small, but can be fun for doing letters or just signing something.

Dan,

Vivek does do a nice job with italics. I've got three of his that I really like but I haven't tried an oblique yet. Next time.

I've read that vintage Pel nibs are different from and perhaps better than modern ones. Your writing sample would seem to validate that assessment.

And now I know what CN means. Thanks.

Margana

No, actually, it does not refer to handwriting. Allied POWs in Nazi camps ran a booming business in forged documents of all sorts. There were some astonishingly accomplished forgers in the camps, and their specialty was the creation of "printed" documents (ID cards, travel permits, and so on) that were good enough to pass inspection by Nazi soldiers, train guards, and border patrols if the escapees carrying them were detained for some reason. Some of these guys could handletter Fraktur so well that it literally looks machine printed, yet they worked with the most primitive of materials, under appalling conditions. The most widely recognized instance of this was the episode that was immortalized in the 1963 film The Great Escape, but this was far from a unique occurrence.

Now, Richard, I think you revising history a bit! Remember that the Nazi banned Fraktur in 1942--are you saying documents continued to be produced in fraktur? I guess they could have been forging older official documents, eh?

And of course it refers to handwriting, unless Hogan's Heros had a printing press in those tunnels: "forgers to duplicate by hand." You don't think the POW cut woodprint blocks, do you?

grins, Dan

Actually, yes, that is precisely the case. The Nazis banned Fraktur, but that does not mean that all documents printed in Fraktur suddenly disappeared or were replaced overnight. It simply did not happen that way.


I'm really sorry, Dan, but if you will take the time to watch The Great Escape, you will see a scene in which one of the forgers is creating a "printed" document by hand, lettering typescript by hand with sufficient precision that you'd think it had been printed. I'm not imagining anything or making anything up or revising history; this is documented fact.

When I was studying in Germany, I was surprised by how many books in the uni library were printed in fraktur. I guess if you grow up with it, it's easy to read, but I never found long texts printed in it appealing to look at.

Stephen

Richard--

Mostly I'm just yanking your chain, but you did say definitively that it wasn't handwriting ("No, actually, it does not refer to handwriting."). But "lettering typescript by hand" is handwriting, even when it's meant to imitate letter press typefaces.

And I'd caution you to take even well researched historical movies with a grain of salt: after all, the bluring of the line between movies and history/real life is how we got Reagan as president!

best, Dan

Normally I take great pleasure in poking holes in "historical" movies -- take Braveheart for example -- but this is one case in which I've actually done the reading. (Perhaps I should explain that my son has a degree in history, and his primary concentration was World War II -- and he did not acquire his fascination from a vacuum. ).

I really enjoyed the discussion on Fraktur that I inadvertantly caused. (I caused it - with apologies to the chaos theorists - like the fluttering wings of the butterfly in Senegal caused the hurricane in Florida!)

So now for the belated update on stubbing my VP: I opted for Richard Binder's 0.9 mm cursive italic. All I can say is sweeeeeet!