Based on the earlier Levenger quality issues question, here's a simple poll regarding an office-stationery item that most of us use quite frequently- the simple letter (or legal) pad. The idea behind the poll is quite simple- Do you feel your desires for a letter/legal pad that is FP friendly is being met currently? Do you feel there is a need for a venerable paper-house to produce an FP friendly every-day use letter/legal pad (sized to English/American standards)?

If your demand for this type of product is already being met, perhaps you can let us know what product you are using (letter/legal pad).

If you use another product with some regularity, but are unhappy with the paper-quality, please suggest where you think a paper-need is not being met (any product- say 3x5 cards etc. is fine).

I hope this poll makes sense. If not, let me know, and I'll try and clarify. I've also never started a poll, so if this poll in any way isn't appropriate for the rules of the forum, please let me know!! [As well, any suggestions for future poll improvements is greatly appreciated!- perhaps PM me on them unless you need to state them here- that's fine as well.]

My interest is not self-serving (other than wishing for a nice FP friendly pad of paper). I have no connections to any paper-making houses etc. what-so-ever. [Other than a sometimes customer of various paper companies.]

I hope this poll proves interesting!
-Allen

EDIT: I've contacted Exaclair about this issue, and they may be checking in on the community in regards to paper products. I hope the poll is useful for them... they're the fellows who bring us the fine paper of Clairfontaine. Now, a letter/legal pad of Clairfontaine paper- that would be a seriously wonderful pad... 9

I voted no, mainly because I'm very happy with the 20 lb. Ampad Gold Fibre note pads. I've had no problems at all with them.

That said, I would definitely like to see a high-end fountain pen-friendly notepad, and I'd certainly buy them. I used to like the Levenger pads, but as noted in another thread, their paper quality sure have gone downhill recently.

Don M.

I voted no, because I am content with the generic legal pads that my office currently has. The text does not bleed as long as I use one of my drier-writing fountain pens, and I can deal with that. I don't need anything particularly fancy for my purposes.

To address another part of your question, I am unhappy with how fountain pens perform on the smaller note pads (steno-type size) and Post-It notes in my office. The smaller note pads seem to have a coating on the paper, so my fountain pens skip and skid. I don't know what brand they are, but they're not Ampad Gold Fibre or anything like that. I've stopped using them entirely. The Post-Its have a real feathering problem, but at least I can write on them.

Definitely! The only easily available legal pad that I've found to work well is Black n' Red. I tried the Ampad Gold Fibre pads based on recommedations on this forum. Unfortunately, I found that they bleed through very badly.

Mike

i voted yes but of course there is a boundary on "high end". I consider Rhodia pads to be excellent. And Black n' Red pads are acceptable (prefer their notebooks, though.) But I do remember the pure luxury of Levenger notepads and wish that I still had that option.

For the smaller pads, I have been known to use FPN notepads (sans lines) for jotting but I feel a bit guilty doing so. I agree with blueiris re: a jotter sort of pad in good quality paper as well.

I've not been able to use FPs on my of the Post-it's I've tried. Maybe what I have is not Post-it brand? The only inks I've had that worked well on those were Noodler's waterproof inks.

I voted yes. Boy, do we have to put up with some crappy paper in the office. Using a fountain pen means raising the standard for writing. A great pen with a great nib goes with great ink on wonderful paper. We pen weirdos have to apply the pressure in this direction for the rest of the world's people. It's our duty.

Doug

Guys, thank you so much for the excellent replies to this poll. I hope that we can get many more users to poll if possible... it's my hope that it might be used by anyone in the industry to see an interest, or a lack of interest. Either way...

I also greatly appreciate hearing about what types of paper products you feel are currently lacking. It's possible that there's a great need for say a high-quality Steno pad or something of the sort...

Love all your replies, guys! Thanks for dropping in and adding to the poll!!
-Allen

I hope this doesn't come across as biased, but I have been extremely happy with the Rhodia No. 18601 legal pads I've been using. They're A4 sized, white paper and 3 hole punched along the side for easily inserting into a notebook. The perforations tear easily and I don't have to struggle with them or risk tearing the page when I want to remove a sheet from the pad. They are extraordinarily fountain pen friendly and very smooth to use.

In fact, my wife (who is just in the beginning stages of fountain pen appreciation, thanks to a recent gift (from me) of a Visconti Van Gogh Midi in Vanilla with a Greg Minskin-modified stub nib) absolutely loves her Rhodia pad. She writes on both sides of the paper (because she's frugal and understands that Rhodia pads cost more than the pads provided by her law office), and has experienced no bleeding or feathering, even with the typical wetness common to Visconti nibs. Even writing on both sides of the page, she goes through her pads twice as quickly as I do - which means she does a lot of writing. Her opinion carries a lot of weight with me.

In short, I think the ideal legal pad already exists.

James P.

I've found the same thing with the big Rhodia No. 38 pads (16.5x12.5 inches) - no bleeding, very friendly surface and, as James P says, they tear as if they were eager to go.

Laurence

I voted yes as I've always used Levenger and feel that now I need to find a new supplier.

However, it's quite possible that the Rhodia will be perfect for me--I'm going to give them a shot. I do like Clairefontaine's paper just a bit more--it is slightly heavier. Rhodia uses 80g/m2 and CF is 90g.

I'm planning on getting some of Richard Binder's pads for the daily household scribbles and grocery lists. Life is too short to write on crummy paper.

Hey guys,

Thanks for voting and letting us know what you are using! I appreciate it.

I do have another semi-related question- does the A4 size bug you/have any trouble fitting in your filing systems etc.? The whole country is based on 8.5x11 paper and for school etc., and filing, it appears that size is commonplace. Have you run into any issues using it in your everyday work?

Thanks!!
-Allen

I voted 'yes' because competition is good for the market.

I find A4 a little inconvenient--it doesn't quite fit in letter-sized file folders or on my Levenger clipboardish thingie. But it's not so hard to make small adjustments.

For my big handwriting project I keep the A4 sheets in a legal-sized file folder, with a plastic file-folder type protector that almost contains them. It works fine. As it happens I have a new office desk that gives a lot of legal filing space (don't ask me why they would design it that way, we're not a legal folder kind of office), so that works out for me.

Rhodia tops my list but I like using paper with a bit of color, sometimes for aesthetics and sometimes for organization. I also like college ruled pads best. Clairefontaine only works for me when I use wider nibs and that is a rarity for daily writing.

For the price Ampad Gold Fibre 20# is hard to beat. With the convenience of Staples for tablets whenever I have need, Ampad is easily my second favorite.

What I really need are Post-Its that are fountain pen friendly. White index cards would be nice, too.

BTW I am less fond of Levenger's lined tablets because of the layout. I just want plain horizontal lines - no extras.

We're using AmPad at work and it seems fine. I have some Office Depot brand and it too works fine.

*shrug*

-Bruce

They had that once. And they were good pads. Probably before they "improved" them.

The margins are good for some uses (notes when I'm working on graphics) but if you just write without notes in the margins or diagrams or whatever, then fully-ruled is better. I was very disappointed when they stopped making the fully-ruled paper.

And when they stopped making the blue 3x5s.

I go through so many pages on both letter sized and half-sized pads that I'd bankrupt myself with a truly high-end pad. I prefer the Ampad Gold Fibre; I noticed that a prior poster related problems with bleed-through. I use very fine points, writing fairly dry, so it hasn't done it for me.

I can use up a letter-sized pad in a day to two days, depending on what I'm doing with my work. I don't want to be popping several Dollars daily just for notes, etc., that are probably going to end up in the trash at some time.

Loving the thread and the votes, everyone! Thank you!

On the advice of everyone here, I ordered some Black N' Red's from SamsClub online and hopefully will have them soon. I also picked up some Ampad Gold Fibre pads from the local Walmart (and will scope out Staples soon...).

My initial thoughts on the Ampad- (i) I got used to the left-hand pane for summary notes/headings on the Levenger pad- but I like the title and preparer portion of the top header- helps me see immediately what the files are regarding. So, I'm only missing half of what I was used to with the Levenger product on this mark. (ii) Immediately I noticed a smoother writing experience in comparison to the Levenger pads I have been using of late. It's actually quite good. It's no Clairfontaine, that's for sure, but smoothness is quite good. It sort of reminds me of the Miquelrius smoothness. (I think it's a bit smoother than my Black N' Red spiral bound books- I'll have to try them side by side... hmm.. lemmie do it now...)... Ok, here's what I think. It may be wrong.. but, in order of scratchy to smooth...

BlackNRed spiralbound notebook < Ampad Gold Fibre Spiral Pad < Miquelrius Spiralbound notebook
(increasing smoothness)

I think there was going to be a (iii) above... but it's passed my mind now. If I run more tests, I'll let you know. OH- I remember now... (iii) With my Namiki VP F nib, I get little to no bleedthrough/seethrough with the Ampad. With my M400 Pelikan F nib, I definitely get bleedthrough and seethrough- (any difference between bleedthrough and seethrough, btw?).

So, those who use a wet writer, and need to write on both sides of the page, the Ampad may not have sufficient heft or perhaps has bleedthrough that you may notice. But, at a couple bucks a pop, they're worth a try, that's for sure.

Thanks for the pointers, guys!
-Allen

ps- I have in the past also used Tops Docket Gold as well- I'll have to compare them to Ampad's Gold Fibre sometime soon.

Ampad Gold Fibre comes in a 20# and a 16# version. Which did you purchase?

Margana,

Thanks for asking! I didn't know that, actually. I have the 20# versions. I didn't mention the state of the seethrough/bleedthrough of the other two- it appears upon closer examination that both the Black N Red and the Miquelrius notebooks (not pads) appear to have less bleedthrough/seethrough than the Ampads. Again- that was with my M400 F nib, Legal Lapis ink.

I just received my Black N' Red letter pads (that was fast!!) and I'll be checking them out today to see how they work out. The paper is heavy- 24#- I suspect the Levenger paper was also 24# based on the heft.

The Black N. Reds have a nice feel to them, but I wish the backboard was as stiff as the Ampads and the Top Dockets. However, it's easier to fit the skinnier backboards into portfolios etc.

-Allen

[edited to remove Docket Gold info- Tops Docket Gold is only 20# weight.]

so I'm guessing you didn't get the hardbound, Black 'n Red? Those are wonderful - of course, you spend more on them but they're as good as any clipboard.

The quality of most ledal pads now is at least adequate and many are very good. When I started practicing law in 1975 the legal pads we had available were like a yellow big chief tablet. The paper would feather and the fibers would foul the nib. I used to go the county law library and get pads that West Law gave the librarian to put out on the tables. I think I still have some of these. They were much better quality.

After that it takes some really bad paper to upset me.

Jim

I'm not picky about my everyday paper. I usually use the cheap recycled note pads that are provided at the office, and they work fine with my FPs, even wet writers. (Bleedthrough does happen, but it's not an issue for me as I only write on one side of the page. Feathering is no problem with Noodler's inks, and wasn't a problem with the Pelikan inks I used pre-Noodler's.) If I'm buying for myself, it is usually an Ampad yellow pad. They are very well made and FP-friendly. So, no, I don't see a crying need for something new.

Hey KCat!

Nope, didn't get the hard-bound version. I was looking primarily for a letter-pad with very nice paper that could replace my Levenger addiction. I hate to admit that I like their layout. It's reminiscent of the Cornell rule (perhaps it's a variant), without the summary section (which I'd find I wouldn't want to use anyway). But, it's been a while since I read about the Cornell method, so I may have the boxes wrong. I tended to use the left-hand pane for headers and summary/notes about what was discussed on the right-hand pane for quick jump-in points in my notes.

The Black N' Red paper is wonderful. It's quite smooth. (I'm having a hard time distinguishing the smoothness from the Miquelrius spiral bound notebooks I have- I suspect they're slightly less smooth, but need more time with them.) I suspect they may become my choice for letter-pads until something new comes along. Since my filing is all in 8.5x11, I can't see moving to A4 at the moment, so that negates a lot of the wonderful paper in the European market for me. It would be wonderful to use the Rhodia or Larger Triomphe pads... I think at least the Triomphe may be too rich for my blood. But, at the price of the BnR's, I believe I can afford them for everyday use.

Of course my question was a bit loaded- I never mentioned price-point. [Although, I was willing to pay for the Levenger pads, so it's quite possible that I'd be willing to pay for a high-end pad with similar price-point.]

It does appear at least at the very high-end, there is no pad at 8.5x11... a Rhodia or Clairfontaine in that size might fill out the paper landscape a bit. I suspect that most who purchase the A4 would go with the normal English unit letter-size if it were available.

It does also appear that there *might* be a niche for a high-quality post-it-note! I never thought of that before- as I had been gritting my teeth as I wrote on them at work.

I also suspect if Exacompa released an all-white and margined version of their 3x5's that they would sell quite well.

Alright, enough thinking aloud for this evening!
-Allen

I voted no, because I am happy with the Gold Fibre and Docket Gold pads. If those aren't good enough for a specific job, Clairfontaine makes a very nice lined letter-size (A4) pad in their Triomphe line. You don't get more fp-friendly than Clairfontaine, imo.

I dug out a nice pad holder that I bought in France many years ago. It was originaly filled with a Triumph, European letter pad in A4 210 x 297 8.27 x 11.69

I just slided an Ampad recycled U.S letter pad in the holder slot and the top fits perfectly.
Letter 8 1/2 x 11 216 x 279


Edited to say that mesurements were quoted from Pendemonium.

Hmm.. but, what about the opposite? an A4 in a Letter portfolio? The A4 is significantly longer than the Letter page, right?

Thanks for checking, BTW! I appreciate it!
-Allen

I don't file a lot of my hand-written drafts. The A4 paper fits without any problem in the project boxes I use while working on an article or task, and it also fits in my hanging files (in a lateral filing cabinet) without giving me any trouble when I do need to keep it in a file. Generally I will prefer to keep a scanned copy on my hard drive, rather than a physical sheet of paper, if I am going to need to have it around for a while. Paper files are expensive in the long run: it costs money to store all that stuff, and you can spend a lot of time (two or three minutes per document really adds up) trying to find things even if you keep an up-to-date file index. On the hard drive, you can store the images with tags that make searching nearly instantaneous.

I use the Triomphe A4 quite a bit. I slip them into a plastic sheet protector, then put the whole thing in a file folder. The plastic guards the top edge of the paper from getting chewed up in letter folders designed for 8.5 x 11.

I beleve that the over all qulaity of wiritng papers, pads and notebookd have diminished signifigantly ove rht elast 20 years. I would like to see a line of high grade all rag pads-line and quadrille, as well as three ring paper manufacutred for consumption in the US.

To me pen and paper are the tools of my craft and I like to use the best I can afford. I invest in my writing tools. I'll invest in my paper.

Hey guys!

Very interesting take on all of this! Like your input as well sfeinman! I sort of feel like there isn't a perfect product out there right now- but I do like the Black N Reds I just purchased. So far use of them is going very well. They have a bit more heft than the ampads and they also have less see-through/bleed-through I'm finding. But, I need a bit more time with them.

BillTheEditor- Wow- I like your paperless system! I wish I was that well together with my organization on the computer. I'm getting better these days, but not perfect. I definitely agree with you about the difference between physical and non-physical files. If I had my act together, I might go your route as well. Very cool to hear it's working well for you!

Thanks for everyone's input, guys!! Please don't hesitate to let me know if you use a product that you like that's not mentioned here, or pitch in your 2 cents.

It's been a very interesting poll! I actually didn't think it would swing to "no" But, it has! Very interesting. I have to admit, now that I know I can get the BnR's for less than the Levenger products, and their quality is quite good, I suspect I'll be doing this more often.

Cheers, everyone!!
-Allen

I have not voted yet. Still waiting to pick up some black and red pads to compare with Ampad Gold Fibre. I like the Ampad paper but it does show through quite a bit for me with a medium point.

Does the see through decrease considerably with a fine or extra fine point?

hi Scribbles,

My understanding is that see-through will decrease significantly with a fine point. At least it has worked this way in almost any paper I've tried to date. It may simply have to do with how much ink is laid down onto the paper... more ink sinking into the page more. However, if we're talking thickness of page, and no bleedthrough is occurring, it would be more of an issue of simply seeing a dark ink through a light-weight page.

So far I have been very happy to have the Black N Red letter pads for my portfolio. The paper is not perfect, of course, but it's quite good. My problems with the BnR after using them for a number of months now include: difficulty in ripping off a page - deeper/better perforations are needed, paper thickness could be amped up a slight bit- the paper doesn't have as heavy a heft as I'd like it to. I suspect it's slightly lighter weight than Levenger's pads, but can't confirm this right now, heavier back cardboard- I sometimes use the letterpads alone, not in a folio, and it's painful to write on BnR's without a back of some sort, as their cardboard is quite flimsy. Some of the Ampads I've tried have wonderful back-boards.

That's my simplistic thoughts on BnR's. I have to admit I'm liking them a lot, however, and am using them instead of the Ampads for everyday notes at the moment. [When I use a letterpad.]

-Allen

I'm fine with Levenger's pads, though I also use and love Clairefontaine's pads. I think they are A4, not letter, sized, but they work just fine for me.

Rhodia makes a yellow lined legal pad.

I, too, have had good results using FPs on AMPAD's Gold Fibre pads. There are a few Levenger pads around here, somewhere. They're on the way to Goodwill.

I also use Day-Timer's Letter-Size Personalized Note Pads, which I consider to be high end.

bt

After reading a prior post, I went back in one of my musty file cabinets and found legal pad paper from 30 years ago. It was a lot like Big Chief! I wrote in pencil at the time on the page I pulled, but when I did a little test with a couple of my favorite FP's it feathered like a goose and bled like a stuck pig.

I don't remember any 'good' legal pads available back then at my local office supply (pre the chain stores) and I'm still a fan of the Gold Fibre--for my use.

Maybe I am just cheap, and/or have low standards but I'm fine with my 6 packs of uber-cheap legal pads from Aldi's discount grocery.

This is with a true-writer and quink or noodler's.