I had bought the magic stuff few weeks ago, but I just had a chance to try it.
So I started practicing with one pen and I have couple of difficulties.

First the corner of the top of the barrel. I can not make the potion to stick to it. The film breaks and the edge remains brown.

Also the film tends to break if I put too little on the rubber, but if I put a bit more then it runs down the sides.

FInally now that the black film has dried I see that I have patches that are not covered. What do I do? Do I apply on more coating?

Any suggestions?


AZ

I have no answers for you - yet ;
I just bough some myself and will be trying it out on a Waterman and a Moore..if I have the same problem and find a solution I'll post it here

Why not ping Syd and see what advice he has? He's a remarkably friendly fellow. His e-mail address is on his Web site: http://pensburymanor.com/
Elizabeth

Have you tried various (but safe) cleaning solutions on the pen Antonios? Your description sounds pretty much like some sort of surface contamination by silicone/oil/greasy matter (perhaps even oils from handling), causing the waterbased solution not to be able to reach the HR surface.

Regards

Gerry

Hi Antonios,

The first thing that came to mind was oil/grease contmination, just from use, similar to what Gerry suggests.

A way to clean it reasonably safely is the following method:

1. Moisten a corner of a cotton or paper towel with water and a drop of liquid dishwasher soap. Note: just moisten.

2. Rub the part of the pen where the coulurant doesn't want to stick to with the moist part of the just prepared toweling material.

3. Next, rub the pen with a dry towel, to remove any moisture.

4. Now moisten another piece of toweling material, water only this time, and rub the parts treated with water and liquid soap before. This you do to remove any excess of liquid soap.

5. Rub the pen dry again.

6. Repeat steps 4 and 5.

Now you could try and apply the blackener again. If it still doesn't work, try steps 1 - 6 two (2) more times, and if it still doesn't work, there likely is a problem with the blackener.

HTH,
Kind regards,
Wim

Sorry to hear you are running into application issues. There may be 2 problems both of which involve the pen that is being treated.

1, First, as mentioned in the instructions, the pen must be cleaned of all oils, slicones, polishes, waxes, etc before application to expose the bare rubber so the material can bond properly. Alcohol or a water/ammonia solution have worked for most everyone that has written me. You should be able to strip the PMBHRPPNo9 from the pen with a 50/50 mix of ammonia and water and start over if you need to. Remember to flush all of the cleaner off of the pen with tap water and let dry thoroughly before trying again. That process alone may clean up the underlying pen material sufficiently to allow for proper penetration and adhesion. Otherwise see #2 below.

2. Second the material of the pen being treated needs to really be rubber, and not plastic. I have had a few Salz pens where the black material the pen is made of is not rubber. I (and many other folks) have done pens with flat tops where there is a hard angle between the side of the pen and the top, with no problems reported in the PMBHRPPN09 being repelled. Some early plastics have a slightly oily nature, and they will not take the rubber dye.

Yes, you can try additional applications, but my first reaction is that the pen is not really clean, or that the pen is not really rubber. Have you tried it on other hard rubber pens or parts? Have you had a problem with adhesion on those?

Syd the Wahlnut

Thanks Syd.

It is definitely hard rubber.
Most probably it is my fault... I used Giovanni's Pen Polish to "clean' it.
What I thought, at that time, as "enough" material came of the pen.
But most probably I was not agreessive enough.
I will try again.


Antonios

My guess is that Giovanni's 'Polish' contains some material that is giving you the problem. Not that there's anything at all wrong with the polish, but my guess is that it's like some other combination cleaner/polishes - there's most likely a polishing agent in the mix to create the gloss after the cleaning. Stick with the cleaning *only* solutions - ammonia and water, perhaps even 409, but you do have to have clear access to the HR surface with no contaminants present on the surface.

Good luck, and let us know how you make out.

Gerry

Gerry I think you are right because I have gone through 3 rounds of cleaning and repainting and although everytime is a little better, I am still getting an uneven result. I will probably try another pen.

AZ

One of the things I *should* have mentioned is that darned silicone grease. While it is wonderful stuff for it's intended purpose, if you get any on a surface you are trying to 'paint' or 'dye', you will have a devil of a time getting uniformity. Hey - if you've ever tried car painting you'll know all about surface preparation and it's importance. <_<

Good luck with it Antoniosz.

Gerry

Well, after several tries (cleaning per Wimg, and ammonia solution to remove the potion and reapply) I was never successful. There were always small patches where the potion did not want to stick and the corners were impossible to treat. Similar were my problems with another pen.
Since so many others were successful, I chalked it up to my clumsiness with cleaning and application.

Anyway, Giovanni offered to use his method. I got the pen back few days ago and it looks nice and .. black. I will take few pictures to post soon. Here is one of them

Despite the success with Giovanni's method, I am still very curious about how to make the potion #9 to work which makes better sense for low end pens. So I am still looking for suggestions.

Thanks, Antonios, for your kind comments.
I wanted to point out that the brownish streak in the middle of the cap in the picture you posted is a light reflection, it is not hard rubber showing through....
Incidentally, I like the fact that your picture shows that there is no obliteration of surface detail with the G-10 process, since we do not deposit any material on top of the hard rubber, but we impregnate the oxidised layer of HR with our special dye.
I was curious to try the G-10 process on your "problem" pen, because I have yet to find a pen that did not accept the G-10 treatment.

My experience is only with the #9 Potion, as it does serve its purpose for temporary coloration but with limitations, as stated in the originating post to this thread... some heavy discoloration may not always accept coverage. For problem areas I have usually used a second coat but suffer some loss of pen texture.

The G-10 appears to be an excellent solution for these problem pens. The picture is a good example.

Thanks for the example.

Reblacking Disclosures

I think that, at the very least, these "restorers" should be disclosing the down side to these potions. BHR is worth less treated, period. I really believe the perception of BHR is now negative do to greater use of these products which is reflected in the lack luster prices being paid for BHR.

People new to the hobby should be given disclosures as to the downside of reblacking so, at least, they know a little better what they are getting into.

Roger W.

Roger I understand your concern. "Reblacking" has different effects to different "sub"-groups of the pen hobby.

I understand that there are implications for collectors.
For me, as a user, I simply do not like the look of discolored black rubber - sorry. I do not care if my pen has a lower or higher value - it is simply a matter of "looks". Users are now a large part of the hobby.

Of course a healthy discussion helps everyone to understand the implications. But G-10 or potion #9 are not the first attempts to reblackening. Several repairmen have been offering similar services for a long time.

Antonios, do you have any more pictures? Perhaps comparison pictures with the other HR pen that has given you problems in taking the #9 potion. TIA

Antonio;

What you say is true. In fact a large portion of people on the boards are users, much larger than the collector portion IMHO.

I know also that repair people and just people experimenting around have tried to reblack pens for decades, however, it is still alchemy. There is very little scientific support for these reblacking agents. None of these potions have long term studies or independent lab data.

I think each and every time reblacking comes up it should be made full disclosure for the benefit of new collectors or users that this is a controvesial technique. Restoration techniques that are not reversable are generally considered questionable at best by many in the hobby. Some have even called for a moritorium on these techniques though I don't see this happening any time soon.

Presented here is much the same as the money "Wallstreet" - "Greed is good" or "Reblacking is good". I don't think either of these statements are accurate and just need a little clarification.

Roger W.

Actually, extensive testing has been carried out, including accelerated aging and extreme temperature and UV exposure tests. Believe me, I would not want to have to compensate for the loss of hundreds of HR pens because of some hidden negative effect caused by my G-10 process. I tried many different formulations before settling on my tenth formula (the G-10).
Oxidised HR is decaying hard rubber. Left alone, it won't get any better, in fact the oxidised layer will grow thicker, the surface will become brittle and the pen will eventually crumble. So these are the pens we are treating; cosmetically, yes, but with the improved appearance there are also other advantages. The new upper surface is now imbibed with an effective UV barrier, thus slowing down further degradation. We usually coat the restored pen with a carnauba wax product that offers some protection from further oxidisation.
In my opinion, a pen restored with G-10 will last longer and look better than an unrestored pen.
As I mentioned in a previous post, customers are advised of the non-reversible character of the G-10 treatment and of possible implications on the value of the restored pen (but, in truth, a Waterman 52 and other common user pens are worth more restored than in the green/brown state of oxidised pens).
Nobody is being forced to reblacken his/her pens! It is a free market in a free society and most of the pens I restored were bought for 10-20 bucks, hardly a huge capital investment.
Peace!
Giovanni

Giovani;

People aren't being forced to reblacken their pens but, they are not provided with full disclosure of the implications of doing so either. People deserve to know what impact this will have on the value and the collectability of the pen especially in light of your product being non-reversable. I have a feeling that this is not just being used on pens that have limited collector importance but, some misguided owners are having your product used on important BHR to their detriment and the detriment of the collecting community as a whole.

Roger W.

The famous hot potato reblackening BHR discussion

My personal take on this is that :

1 - a discoloured pen usually loses it collectability (or at least a big part of its monetary value), thus reblackening an "olived" BHR should not matter much for the collector (even though I understand "rare" models can have a high value, even if discoloured);

2 - restoration is done on all parts of pens, and with a large number of techniques, and reblackening is just another one that collectors need to learn to recognize, the same way that they can (or should) recognize a retipped nib, a restored filler, replatted trims, etc...

I understand that collectors who have built a BHR collection over decades can be a little frustrated if the prices go down because of general suspicion. But honestly, the reblackening issue is on topic because of recent processes that are destributed by Giovanni or Syd for example, but how can the collecting community know that reblackening pens (by any mean that might not be widely advertised...) was not a common practice even before today ? And also, isn't the high price of non-discoloured BHR the reason why one can fear dishonest use of those products ? Thus, a drop in price of BHR should actually lower those risks... a sort of feedback loop.

I have a Swan for sale that I reblackened with Syd' potion. The chasing is worn, the imprint is worn, trims are brassed and with plating loss. I strongly doubt that I added any commercial value to it, or that I destroyed any historical value. I know there are collectors who think vintage models should not be used, period. I think that both collecter and users can live side by side, as long as users respect valuable (in the collecting sense) pens. "Historical" models should be left to collectors, and users should not be blamed for using models that show heavy signs of wear and/or are common, or for trying to make them look their best.

I think the bottom line in my mind is that there were, are and will always be dishonest dealers/sellers, and I am not convinced that reblackening will be such a disaster or is any different form all other techniques. And if you add to that the unwillingness and/or lack of capability of the collecting community to organize itself or define any standards, isn't trying to deal with reblackening now putting the cart before the horse ?

Finally, all collecting communities that I know of value a good restoration. Advocating to let an historical classic car rust because one can not predit the effect of modern paint on vintage alloy would not be very welcomed by the car collectors I think. Only the pen community seems to have issues with protecting the objects, and would prefer to let them virginally decay.

Denis.

Hi Roger, (Nice name, BTW)

I have no dog in this fight, but the logic on both sides interests me. What would satisfy you as "full disclosure"? It seems to me that a couple of simple sentences from the practitioner of the process should suffice. For instance, were I Richard Binder, at this moment the exclusive licensee of Giovanni's product, I would tell the potential customer that:

1. The process is not reversible.
2. The value of the pen, in the collectors market, may either increase or decrease because of the process.

What else would be necessary? That's so easy that Richard could easily present it in writing and have the customer sign off on it. Would that in writing represent full disclosure?

Nos. 1 and 2 above take care of the possible detriment to the owner. Where is the detriment to the "collecting community"? You make it sound as if the pen, as a vintage example, belongs to the collecting community as a whole, and the owner of the pen has no exclusive rights with his property. What if the owner, in a fit of anger, stomps on the pen, then later offers it for sale, as is. Is he culpable for his willful act to the "collecting community"? Wow! Shades of Home Owners Associations come to pendom.

Roger;

I went simply by Roger for a long time but, then I had a few people confuse my with Roger Cromwell so I added the W.

Your disclosure approaches a certain level of fairness - may increase or decrease value. At least it may lead to further questions and doesn't state "this is a bad idea but you can do it anyway" - so OK it's fair.

If someone stomps on a pen isn't it a loss to the whole collecting community?

Denis, I've been looking on creating a set of Generally Accepted Restoration Methods which would address a wide variety of restoration methods employed.

Roger W.

Roger W.,

This would go a long way in setting some form of generally recognized guidelines; new collectors, as well as seasoned ones, could at least have some resource to be referred to when making repair decisions. The more information one has on any subject is always best.

As an endeavor such as you suggest is in no way enforceable, and given that there are “user collectors”, “antique collectors”, “limited edition collectors”… so on, your suggested guideline project would be daunting but not impracticable.

I would welcome such a project on your part but only to the extent that it was relevant to my collecting interests. If my perspective is needed, I would be more than happy to share it. Thanks.

Hi Roger,

that would be an interesting thing. The discussions about repair ethics, grading standards, etc., have been around for some time. I am curious about how you are thinking about spreading the standards. There has been talks of lobbying the PCA, or creating a dealers association to "enforce" them.

My take on this is that the pressure needs to come from the collectors themselves. It will be extremely hard to convince a majority of professionals to create any standards. First because they might not see great incentives in adding constraints to there profession, and also because it would most likely be difficult for them to come to an agreement on the standards themselves.

A set of standards, if well defined and not too obscure, if popular and reasonable, could be slowly introduced by the community. If dealers and other professionals face the same questions, inspired by those standards, over and over, they will end up going with them.

Bottom line, may be the collectors should stop waiting for a Messianic association, and put standards out there already. It seems like this is what you are heading to Roger, right ?

Denis;

You wrote right out of my mind! (OK, that's a bit too cool).

Anyway, yes, I have relized that restorers have no incentive to stop offering some of the services they perform without pressure from collectors that the process is just bad for the hobby. I agree that there is no enforcement but by self disapline which would be guided by Generally Accepted Restoration Methods (GARM). This, of course, can be deviated from when necessary (note Generally Accepted). I've started a discussion on another Board and for more imput we'll bring it here too. Some of these points are extreme and need to be modified but it is a starting point.

Collector Code

1. Do no harm
2. Restoration technique must be reversible
3. Reblacking Hard Rubber pens has no purpose in collecting
4. Replating Rolled Gold has no purpose in collecting
5. Vintage pens should not be overpolished
6. Only original parts should be used in restoration of hardware
7. Nibs should not be reground from original shape
8. Sheaffer vacs should not use rubber washers packed onto the packing unit

This is meant to cover vintage pens and not apply to modern pens. I suggest pens through 1965 giving 20 years for honest, head to head, competition with ballpoints (we lost that war ). I've modified the original point 5 to make it more clear. There is also lots of reasons and possibilities on modifying point 4. Please feel free to add some model specific points.

Perhaps this becomes a two part guide. Part one would be the GARM and part two would be a model specific reference guide to key points to look out for.

Roger W.

Good point. If you can convince Roger Cromwell to use Roger C., I'll go to Roger B. Not willing, though, to allow one generic Roger unless it's me , since I'm pretty sure that I'm older than either of you.

IMNSHO, No! The "collecting community" is the agglomeration of the *people* engaged in the collecting of pens. They collect whatever there is to collect. As long as I am the legal owner of a particular piece, it is not in the collecting pool. If I stomp it, it merely means that I can no longer make it part of that pool, but that is my right. [RANT]I have this thing about property rights as being crucial to the success of our democratic republic, thus far, and fear that it is being whittled away to the ultimate destruction of our society as we know it. [/RANT]

That's a noble task that you are undertaking, but for a group that can't standardize on grading definitions, it will be a herculean task. Certainly worthwhile undertaking, however. Good luck!

Roger (generic no initial Roger);

I can see your point about ownership rights but, must disagree with it. As to the ownership of anything that will outlast us, we are mere caretakers. So the community of collectors is effected as a whole by your actions. We do owe a duty. Perhaps this is part of the curse of having civilization. I feel everyday that we are becoming more of a police state but, that's another matter mostly [Rant].

Roger W.

Right-On Roger.

I am in total agreement with your sentiments on personal property rights. I would not welcome any mandated restraints from an organization, or any other such entity for that matter, that sought to control how I used my personal property (pens for this discussion). Far too many of our rights have be marginalized already.

At a recent show I was told politely “no thank you” to my purchase of a relatively inexpensive Mint pen. The seller caught-on through conversation that I was a user of the pens I collect. The imposition of his collecting standards upon me did not settle well with me. I felt degraded…

On the other hand, a well defined policy manual, or whatever else that could be devised, could aid collectors through forewarning potential harm to a pen’s collectible value. I would hate to find my collection, meager as it is, was worth far less than thought due to ignorant restoration practices.

Hi Roger W.,
I would agree with you when it comes to really durable items, like land, water, air, or generally the earth and what makes the earth the earth, or living things for that matter.

When it comes to manufactured inanimate objects meant for use, I don´t. Anything else belongs in a museum. Of course, if you want to start a collection for your own museum, with items that you think belong in there, that´s fine, it serves a purpose. But to a user, he or she is allowed to do with those objects like he or she pleases, IMO.

If someone owns a car or house, and they want to modify it, for their own purposes, they are allowed to do so, as long as they don´t harm (as in injure or kill, etc.) anybody by doing so. That´s my opinion anyway. And these objects fall in the same category.
Pens are objects meant to be used, so I think everybody who owns a pen has an inalienable right to do with a pen what he or she wants, IMO, again, as long as you don´t injure or kill another person.

And rare pens or those pens that are more art than pens to write with, will end up in museums anyway, or in someone´s collection (which IMO is the same thing). Occasionally, user grade or user pens of better grade, will end up in museums and collections too, but that is more telling of us humans, than a perceived need to do so.

Anyway, just my opinion, and I am a user of pens, rather than a true collector.

Warm regards, Wim

Wim and Russ;

There is a point when an object that was meant to be used crosses over to a thing that is meant to be preserved. No one in their right mind would spend a mint 1917 quarter. It was meant to be passed into circulation afterall but, at some point it crossed over into a collectable which is meant to be preserved. Modern manufactured items are certainly meant for use and modification but, again, at some point everything old passes over to earning preservation status. We may still disagree on this but, I hope this makes my point a little clearer.

Russ, I'm glad you didn't get the mint vintage (I take it as vintage though you didn't say but, only makes sense that way) pen. Relatively, inexpensive or not, there are fewer and fewer of them available. I do think that you could actually carefully use and carefully clean such a piece. I'm not so extreme as to think that once inked it is forever ruined you just run a risk of damage when using something.

Roger W.

I do see your point Roger, but the whole pen market as it is kinda negates the museum spirit of collecting..IMHO. Sorry, yes it was a vintage pen, but the hypocricy of the seller was amusing. On the one hand he is preserving a pen for some future purpose, but at the same time selling it in the "open market" to the hundreds of the "general public" for profit. These shows are not "serious collector only" formats. If some pens need to be out of the market and put up for the future, I can certainly see that. Still, that decision must always remain with the owner of the pen.

Russ;

I understand your angst in that the guy was selling the pen but, you have to understand shows. Not all of these people are "sellers" in the pure sense of the word. They are hobbiest, collectors, etc. the pen doesn't fit in their collection but, they see it fitting in someone else's that will appreciate it. Many show "sellers" are not as you would have them be willing to sell all there wares to just anybody.

Roger W.

Hey, people are people, I give everyone their opinions. My intention was not to harp on the seller but just to show how out of whack thinking can get.

My point was: If this thing is some museum piece, why the heck is it sitting in the middle of tray sub-standard pens for general sale. By the logic of removing certain vintage from general circulation, wouldn't private collector sale/auction be more appropriate to preserve the integrity of this pen.

As usual Roger, you bring good discussion. I think your written standards idea is an excellent idea. But still, if it is one sided and doesn't address users, I think it will have less of an effect.

Thanks.

Russ;

It's great having your input and I am trying to wrap my arms around how to satisfy users on this one. I honestly don't have a natural inclination to do so but it is important as users make up the majority of the discussion. I do think that collectors are in the minority and, unintentionally, users end up devaluating some key pieces.

You're right that sellers at shows don't group pens by users and collector specimens. Not all sellers would know the difference. If it is a big pen they can take a guess but, many of the smaller pens remain unidentified unless a collector seeking it out is lucky enough to find it.

I've just love mint stickered pens as they are such a valuable source of information. As a brand there is a lot of information on Parkers and more people there know what is rare and what isn't. There is less of that with the other brands and, from my viewpoint, diminishing information as examples are sold that won't have articles written about them. That information means a lot to me, Russ, just something that makes me tick I guess. Thanks, again, for helping me to embrace the user on this issue.

Roger W.

I'm not a pen guru by any stretch of my imagination, but I do have a respect for old pens. As a matter of fact, I have tremendous respect for anything that has survived times ravages. It breaks my heart to se something that has withstood the test time get destroyed. Recently a neighbor cut down an oak tree in his yard that has been there since my childhood... even long before that. It was sad to see and was totally uncalled for, but it was his tree... at least by my property rights beliefs. This is were my personal conflict lies. Nonetheless, I would be more than happy to share my perspective as a user collector if you decide to move forward with something.

Thanks.

Some more thoughts...

I'm happy to leave the well preserved rare models to hardcore collectors as : i) It does not make a difference to me to use a "user grade", ii) I know that some collectors want to preserve them, iii) they carry a premium on the market.

Roger (the generic, but O! so unique one ), Russ : Isn't the property issue somewhat moot ? I doubt Roger W. will try to create a Federal Fountain Pen Preservation Agency with policing powers to come take the pens from users' hands.

Roger W. : I think Roger and Russ comments go deeper than the simple property issue. There is a perception, I think, of the hardcore collecting community being sometimes arrogant and slightly "off the hook". There is a lot of contradictions between the discourse and the reality sometimes.

• Do all collectors preserve their pieces in climate controlled conditions ? Is humidity and temperature controled as it should be if the objective is to pass those pens to future generations ?
• We know there is a market value difference between a unused, factory original pen, and the exact same pen, in the exact same condition, but that has been inked, even once. But what is the difference on an historical point of view ? Did the ink suddenly destroy any historical information ? Did it irreversibly damage the pen ?
• Of the self-proclaimed "researchers", how many of them actually publish their collection of data, findings and their interpretations ? There is a minority that will gladly answer questions selectively, (and an even smaller minority that will make as much of their information as they can available ) but I don't see that many experts, compared to the apparent number, sharing widely their knowledge, as true researcher would.

What I am trying to push here (besides collectors' buttons ), is that there is inevitably a part of fetishism in the simple act of collecting, that is very appearant, and that somehow clashes and is inconsistent with the strong opinions that we can hear.

Am I just ranting ? No. Point : if collectors want users to be sensitive to their views, they should also define them consistently and make the effort to advertise them : What is the ultimate goal of hardcore collectors ? Is it building complete, focused, personal collections, or is it a collective effort to protect a wide range of historical items ? Do collectors take precautions so that their collections will not be dispersed when they die ? Do they donate to a pen museum ? Should they create a pen museum ? How are those goals acheived ? Part of defining it is your effort with repair standards. Shoudl all vintage pens put in chloroform ? (Which btw would equate discarding a part calligraphy as inferior to collecting.)

If users are asked to be considerate, and leave the good pieces to collectors, they have the right in exchange to know why they should be doing it. If they are asked to do it so that other individuals can fill up more cases in uncontrolled conditions, look at them on sundays, and not know if their "consideration" will have changed anything to the body of knowledge or to the number of preserved artifacts in few decades, it's not going to be very popular. If they know, or even just think that, may be, not buying a certain piece will overall be beneficial to the hobby, they might do it.

Define standards; define goals; define methods; then advocate and "educate" non-collectors about what you are trying to do, with a clear, coherent picture to show. They might help you or they might think that what you are doing is useless, but as long as there is no coherence, nothing is going to change.

Well... that the way I would go about it

denis, maybe collectors are just users with lousy handwriting so they prefer to sit and stare at their loot

being a bit of both, i think your viewpoint would be considered extreme by most collectors. even the purest of collectors does use fountain pens, attend pen shows, trade knowledge and resources. in fact it is such collectors who are known, the rest remain in the woodwork, their passion emerging only when their estate is disposed of.

ultimately, it is a matter of money. user A will not give up a mint pen to collector B unless the latter offers a fair price. from the user's viewpoint, he ought not to care what happens to the pen after that. likewise, if a collector parts with a pen to another person, he no longer should expect to control its fate, perhaps it will end up in a museum, or equally likely on a nib modifier's bench. again, the only way to retain control on the pen's fate is to hang on to it.

re: climate controlled conditions, there are horror stories about well-intentioned attempts to store pens in vaults which ended up crumbling for lack of ventilation. i feel these vintage warriors that did perfectly well in the dresser drawer for nearly a century don't need special pedestals built, indeed all that is needed is a hands off effort from the viewpoint of restoration.

the ink virginity is a reflection of a premium put on the intent of the pen be kept mint. it is not a fetish, for it is impossible to remove ink traces from a dipped pen. they are fundamentally different items in value, and not whimsical in the same way as they say a car's value drops a certain percentage if it is driven off the lot, but remains unchanged if it is only test driven. it's certainly not a fetish to insist on mint uninked.

is there a bit of hypocrisy? a little bit is inevitable, after all collecting entails hoarding one's collection, taking the pleasure in cataloging, etc. most collectors do not view themselves as mini-museums with the public right to view their goods quoting educational committment. most collectors merely want their pens to survive them, continue in good hands, and treasured perhaps for a long time to come.

in the meantime, while the hobby grows and becomes organized into a large body with rules, it remains best to exercise prudence with regard to users' treatment of collector specimens. just because no rules exist, or standards in the same sense as greater hobbies, does not mean we are free to do as we please---in fact, anticipating rules, we must try to be as conservative as possible, so that the rules will impact us in a positive and not a negative way.

Denis;

What a wealth of stuff to answer and it goes to the heart of something else I have said. Some people that have collected for a while will say we have an established hobby. I say we do not for many of the questions you ask. I think that the way collectors fail to present a common front does lead to the few pronouncements we make being preceived as arogant. Now onto your points;

Climate control - you bet! I kept my BHR pens upstairs until I got the dehumidifier in the basement.

Inked or Mint - I think this is a bad carry over from the LE people. If you ink it use it carefully and clean it thouroughly - who cares!?!

Research - You are right that few collectors research and fewer still publish. I have an article on PenTrace and answer early Sheaffer questions as many of you know. I'm working on several other articles but, it does take a lot of time and effort (I have a hard time with the camera aspect). I'm also working on an informational website.

I think collectors have to have a focus because resources are limited. I'm working on a near model compleat collection of Sheaffers 1912-1941 (no vacs). Also, I try to get as many Bostons as I can get my hands on (1904-1917). The Sheaffers have a lot of catalogues and ads to base first hand research on. The Bostons are a complete 180 as there is almost no printed info on them.

I'm working on repair standards (GARM) though it is hard to say if anyone will ever adopt it.

A consistant front from collectors should also be worked on - I'll see what I can do .

Roger W.

Roger (W.), Viv,

your points and explanations are exactly the kind of material that should be out there. You have to write a constitution for collectors with statement of purpose, fundamentals, ethics, etc... As I said, it does not mean you will convince everyone, but it would be positive I think... as long as it is a coherent and somewhat united representation of the hobby.

Ultimately, the collecting community needs a J. Paul Getty Trust to create a foundation/museum dedicated to the conservation and research of Fountain Pens. Just find a wealthy and dedicated collector, without heir or willing to shortcut them and your troubles are over

Denis.

By the way, if you want to "freak out" with some extreme comments on this subject read the answers to a post from Roger W. in this thread at Lion&Pen.

Roger W. I am not refering to your posts but to the answers to it. You have made here elegant and polite statements of your position which shed light to the position of collectors in this discusison. The answers to your posts are simply going to scare away new people that are interested in the hobby. They will think that fountain pen collectors live on other planets To me this is b....bad.

By the way I hope to get some close up of the G-10 treated pen this weekend and post them.

AntoniosZ

(who has some pens that he will not ink but would not hesitate for a second to reblacken a badly discolored user if he knew how to do it inexpensively).

Hey Dennis.

Do you think users might deserve some support as well... maybe Charlton Heston could help

Antonio;

You may find some of the comments at Lion and Pen to be scary, but some people find you reblackening pens equally scary.

People new to the hobby need to know there a serious concerns over reblacking. I think I've been very clear on this so I do not wish now to continue to beat this dead horse. Funny though, the horse has a lot of stamina and reblacking will be presented again without any warning to the valid concerns that this process legitamately raises. These potions should come with adequate disclosures which they do not have.

Roger W.

Roger,

Sorry, can't agree with you. I'm quite sympathethic to Antonios's position, which I find eminently resonable.

Regards

Gerry

Roger,

It is not a dead horse - it is an open issue that requires discussion and data, not ideological reactions. I think that the concerns are real but exaggerated.

I have in my hands a reblackend pen by G-10 and a near "pristine" BHR pen. It is VERY EASY to distinguish them - all you need is a loupe.
The reblackening did not turn my worn pen into a pristine looking sample - but it did a great job hiding the brown look and to eliminate the dusty/rusty hand feeling of the pen.

The price of reblacking (by G-10) is more than $50. It is a cosmetic repair that is rather expensive for a user pen.

Collectors have very little to worry about by reblackening. On the other hand the hobby will loose if it remains among few "initiated" rather than opening to more people.

AZ

I think the issue of a warning concerning reblackening is a little odd in that I do not hear about warnings about other restoration techniques. Unless you find a way to permanently attach a disclaimer to a pen, it will anyway go down to the trust between a buyer and a seller or the ability of collector to know their stuff and recognize a reblackened pen.

I also think the issue of physical risks for the pens is moot. I have no hard evidence that either G10 or Pensburry Manor Potion are 100% safe, but the physico-chemical properties fo hard rubber are not unknown to modern science and I personaly trust both Giovanni and Syd to not play the alchemists. They have been around, in the community for too long, and rendered too many services.

So, it all goes down to the collecting value aspect, in my opinion. My conclusion remains the same, that there is a need for more communication between users and collectors. The extremists on both sides will not be happy with it, and you will have to face bad looks from both the fringe of collectors that rely on fetishism and the idea that all pens and their history belongs to them, and of users who would throw a Parker Aztec in the botton of their bac;pack if they found one.

Could a pan association of users and collectors see the light ?

Gerry, Antonio and Denis;

First Gerry, I don't think you get my point. Without someone like me popping up new people to the hobby would think reblacking perfectly safe and advisable. Not true. However, to clarify my position with Antonio, I agree that for users and user grade pens there is a legitimate rational for reblacking, though recognizing this I would never reblack a pen - just doesn't do anything for me (but I get the point of some people wanting shiny black pens - cool).

Denis, really got to disagree here. Neither of these folks is chemists, etc. (and neither am I for that matter). To hear the story of the potion developments - sounds pretty much like alchemy to me. I agree that Syd seems to have some science behind his but, I think it is far from being scientific. As far as being around a long time doesn't mean squat. There are several charlatans that have been around a long time too. However, in your last paragraph we come together again. There should be a middle ground. It's like a persons private and public positions. I would never reblack a pen. I think others should reblack pens (not excellent models with a slight cosmetic problem, but users - and I think we all generally know what this is) as long as they are aware of the pros and cons. This thread was on reblackening so I didn't touch on many of the other controversial restoration methods.

Roger W.

Roger W., I believe that Giovanni is an engineer (of course he can speak for himself). Does this count ?

On the other hand, I do understand your point. In fact, I went to Richard's website where it offers the service and I think he should indeed post a little more "discussion" about reblackening - a warning or something similar.

AZ

I can only speak for the Pen Potion #9, and this disclaimer has been on Pensbury's website as long as I can remember.

"The choice to restore any antique object should not be taken lightly. Some antique and vintage items including Fountain Pens may be of considerably higher value if left in their original, aged, with respectable "patina", condition. If you have any concern about whether the item you are considering restoring is going to suffer a loss in value by being refinished, do not restore that item. However, there are many wonderful daily writers that will never become the most prized among collectible, investment grade pens, yet they bring pleasure to their users. The outward appearance of these delightful instruments however may need a boost so they are more "presentable" in public and more pleasurable to use.

I have the feeling that if Roger W. had his way, there would be a public domain of collectable FPs such that if a person's pen fit the "collectable" criteria, then that person would be prevented from making alterations that would devalue the pen in the eyes of the collectors. I hope that I'm misreading you, Roger, because if that is correct, you have lost me completely!

Middle ground, Schmiddle ground, I do with my pens what I wish!

Not a vintage person, yet, which the spokespersons for the above mentality should be grateful. ^_^