Hi all ...
using normal pens with flex nibs, I tried the copperplate hand with the paper canted ... wow very difficult to keep the slants consistent...

the Copperplate hand is the one hand that I cannot do ... very frustrating ... for years now ..

so I have just ordered an oblique holder and a few oblique nibs in the hope of getting it right. I also ordered the IronGall ink which was recommended. Never seen nor used it before.

any advice whilst I await delivery?

any guidebooks to recommend?

anyone here uses oblique holders and/or Mitchell's oblique nibs? what are yr experiences?

tks in advance...

Good to see you posting again! You do such nice calligraphy in various hands that it's hard to envision that there would be one that you are having a hard time with.

I once had the Zanerian Manual, which you might like (it certainly contains a lot), but I've never done Copperplate, so I can't say how the instructions compare with others. Eleanor Winters has a book called "Mastering Copperplate." I like her work in general--but haven't seen the book, but it may be worth looking into.

Here's a link to Paper and Ink Arts. You should be able to find either of the books mentioned & others, plus nibs and other supplies. Just type "copperplate" in the search box.

Maybe you'll get some better recommendations from someone with experience doing Copperplate.

Good luck!
Ann

I think you can get free lessons at zanerian.com

I like "Calligraphy in the Copperplate Style" by Herb Kaufman and Geri Homelsky. It's very inexpensive and very easy to follow.

thanks Ann for your encouragement....you are too kind with your words...

will look up the local bookstore.... I am surprised you said you haven't done copperplate. anyone would have easily assumed you have mastered it after seeing your handwriting samples....

i still don't understand how you guys manage to write the copperplate or spencerian hands using normal tools . Even by canting the paper, the wrist movement is limited and just too hard to main consistency in the slants. Did people of those times write this way? Wonder how they did it.

thanks ... I visited the Zanerian website ... the sample exercises there look tough already ...

thanks Bill for the pointers ... I'm sorry to hear you have trouble enjoying writing due to health reasons...

yes the best way to learn is to see someone actually doing it... I was looking at a webstore's videoclip selling Automatic Lettering Pens ... the demonstration was most insightful - at least to me... immediately I could see things like... the penhold , the wrist position, the wrist movement, etc

i don't think there are any calligraphy classes here where I live... so I have to rely on internet and you guys.. I must say samples , pics etc from others are most useful. The learning accelerates.

your explanation on 'drawing' rather than 'writing' is helpful... Is this why you recommend that an oblique holder is a must-have instrument?

Also, the penhold, I should think , is more crucial in the Copperplate hand, since theres lots of swashes to be drawn. Can you direct me to a website that teaches the penhold?

The Zanerian website showed some useful gadgets to help improve writing. Have you used the one that looks like a little stubby cylinder to be gripped between the little finger and the palm? Is this the hold that is the correct one? What are your experiences?

I would imagine the next important matter would be the paper to be written on , since pressure is the key technique. What kinds of paper should I be using or avoiding?

I regret having deleted my post. After looking at your posted calligraphy, it occurred to me that you (and others who are familiar with your talent) might well see my comments as presumptuous and inappropriate. I was embarrassed and deleted the post. I apologize for any offense.

I recommend the oblique holder (or the special nibs) because that's the only way I know to execute copperplate. As far as I know, copperplate was always executed either on paper with a pen in an oblique holder, or on metal with an engravers tool (burin? should know but I'm tired and my brain isn't working tonight). I've never known anyone who did copperplate with a regular dip pen in a straight holder. In my opinion, a fountain pen nib would never be capable of the degree of flexibility and "spring" that it takes to execute copperplate.

Can't help with the penhold, since there was nothing special about mine. Never used the Zanerian gadget (in fact I didn't even know such a thing existed). Normally my little finger is against my palm when writing, but it's a light touch, not a "grip" that would hold an object. Most critical (in my opinion) is something you already know: learning to breathe the pen movements and learning to relax every part of your body while writing. Holding your breath or tensing up your hand will totally destroy your ability to make the regular, perfectly identical strokes you need in copperplate. In italic and in freehand lettering, you can get a visual rhythm going that improves the appearance of the finished product. With copperplate, you are trying for regularity. It's like blackletter, in a way.

You want to remember that copperplate originated as the penman's attempt to emulate the engraver. It's a different mindset than italic. Or it was for me.

In spite of what I said about getting training, I was self-taught, using a few books, careful study of exemplars, advice from professionals when I could get it, and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours (you get the idea) of practice. If I'd had any sense, I'd have found a teacher in some city somewhere, caught a plane and gone to study with him or her for a couple of weeks. It would have been worth the price.

Nothing special about the paper, either, as long as you aren't practicing on cheap laser printer paper. Good quality paper that won't tear or get caught in the nib as it flexes. I used to buy sketch books (the spiral-bound kind) in art stores when they were having sales or closeouts, as many at a time as I could afford, to use for practice work and for layouts. For production work, I preferred Bristol board (plate finish), 100% cotton paper, smooth high quality stuff in any case. Wove finishes are better than laid. Paper selection was part of negotiating with the client.

Hope this helps. When you get those pens and start working with them, it will make more sense. Copperplate is a very kinesthetic art.

Dear Bill...
No offense taken. None at all. Don't worry. That you care enough to withdraw your post on hindsight is indicative of your sensitive nature, which in turn means that you didn't have any ill-intent. I find your posts encouraging and helpful. Pls do continue to post.

I guess I just have to try it out and this time I am hopeful bcos I think the oblique holder will be a great help.

(im)patiently awaiting delivery of them tools....

warmest rgds

The instruments I ordered have arrived. The oblique holder and some dip nibs. A small bottle of Irongall ink.(wonder whats it made of , it gets dark upon drying) Also bought calligraphy paperpad by Daler-Rowner.....

Now to find time to make my first attempt.

One last question : do you guys cant the paper ?

Yes, I did. Although no more so than when writing normally.

Hi all ....

Pushed myself to try it out....

I don't have a scanner, so this is a digipic.

My first attempt. I find the writing difficult and not flowing. The toothiness of the nibs makes it very hard to make smooth straight strokes. The paper , no matter how smooth, resists the glide of the nib.

The irongall ink does not disappoint, growing to a dark black after drying.

I have been looking at some images of original archaic handwritings and I notice they are able to keep a very very straight baseline. How does one accomplish that?

The letters are also very narrow and compressed. Is that proper or is that a bad example?

I also find that my letters do not slant consistently, even tho I have placed a Zanerian script guide page underneath.

I will next try a Mitchell oblique nib on the oblique holder to get a greater slant.

How I wish I can use an extra fine Rolatip on an oblique holder ...

CorienB 's instructions are more flowing and the letters alot more wider. I can do that with a ballpoint or FP but I can't with a copperplate nib. There must be something that I am not doing right.

Also, after writing , I find that there is a noticeable texture formed by the words. As if the nib has cut into the surface. Very obvious to the touch. Is that expected?

I guess practice makes perfect is needed here. It looks worse the more I look at it.

Any advice & guidance much appreciated .



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Actually, for a first attempt, this is pretty good. It takes patience and practice. Everything comes together eventually, including the slant and the width of the letters. It's also worth remembering that the exemplars were written by masters who had many years of experience and practice. Unless you are going to try to make a living doing this style of writing (I don't recommend that, by the way), you will get to a point that is "good enough" and people will be genuinely complimentary about your "handwriting."

Thanks Bill for the encouragment.

I notice the Principal EF nibs are indeed really good as the others have said. It makes the thinnest thins and the widest wides. But I find them extremely toothy and hard to use.

Will try again using other nibs. I found that the Brause nib 66EF seems to be a lot smoother. I found my letters better formed. I make better formed letters when they are small. BTW , how large (letter height) is the normal copperplate hand ?

I have tried lowering the nib closer to the paper and it improves dramatically. Also I mount the nib in the holder about 11 o'clock instead of 12 o'clock. It makes a better contact with the paper.

There's not a "normal" letter height for copperplate. Because the nibs are flexible, you can vary the height to whatever you need, within the nib's limits. The trick is to pick the right nib -- smaller lettering requires a smaller nib with "snappier" action, and better control by the penman. Depends on what you have in mind. An envelope, an invitation, and a personal letter will use smaller letters (probably) than a quote for framing, an award, a testimonial, or names and information in a list of donors.

The bigger concern is keeping the right proportions between letter body height and the height of ascenders and descenders, and keeping the lines appropriately spaced so that ascenders and descenders clear each other. Think in terms of the whole page, not single letters, single words, or single lines.

How does your best effort with the dip pens compare to your best effort with a fountain pen?

Keep practicing.

For mountains of information on what iron gall ink is, and how it is made (even how to make your own if you feel adventurous), go here.

If you make your own, please only use it with a dip pen.

your handwriting makes me drool

Amazing penmanship

I think I have a long , loooong way to go ....

http://paperpenalia.com/flex2.html

Hi All ...
This was done a week ago with assortment of nibs. Tried smaller size fonts to ensure more control.
But its far from what was taught in paperpenalia.

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Hi Again ,

this was done today... my latest attempt ....

Excuse the mispelling...

This was done real sloooowly and carefully, following instructions on forming the letters properly.

This time the letters are larger.

I need to space out my letters properly. Can someone teach me how?

Also, must each letter be joined to the others?

Would also appreciate if anyone can point me to some real samples done in that era. Might be useful to see how they write that time.

Brause 66EF nib on oblique holder + irongall ink and on Daler Rowney Calligraphy paper with Zanerian scriptline guide underneath.

TIA

I would say you are making good progress. The practice is showing!

Letters are pretty much always joined in copperplate.

Spacing is by eye, same "rules" as for italic or any other style (and for typography, too): oo is the closest spacing, ll (and lb) is the widest, others are in between. If you look closely at the models and at actual handwriting of the period, you can see that sometimes the penman would vary the width of o and e, but not by much, to even out the "color" of the line. Line length sometimes got adjusted by varying the distance between words, but again it's not by much. Another way to adjust line length and color is with the flourishes on the capital letters.

You want to be sure to think about the spacing between lines. Too crowded or too far apart makes it much harder to read copperplate.

If you have access to archival collections or the like, you can see what "real" handwriting looked like. The problem with the models in the books of the period is that they were produced by master engravers working from handwritten work. In other words, the original handwriting did not look that perfect. You can spend a very long time trying to equal the engraved pages and I don't recommend it unless you enjoy discouragement. What you show in the latest sample is every bit as good as actual handwriting of the period, in fact it is better than most ordinary writing of that time. (In college I worked in accessions at the University of Texas library, rare books and history of science, as well as the archives, and also helped researchers with translations from Latin. Believe me, I saw more than my share of chicken-scratches from the twelfth to the twentieth centuries -- not all of those folks were master scribes, not by a long shot.)

Take a look at a facsimile of The Declaration of Independence. It's a pretty good model, in more ways than one. In your local library you may be able to find books that have photos or reproductions of actual period handwriting. When you look at letters and documents from royalty and the like, remember that they did not personally write most of that -- they dictated to secretaries, who did the actual writing.

More books:

A Copperplate Manual: An Introduction to Writing With the Pointed Pen by Gerald Krimm (1979)

The Technique of Copperplate Calligraphy : A Manual and Model Book of the Pointed Pen Method by Gordon Turner (This is American roundhand.)

George Bickham's Penmanship Made Easy (Young Clerks Assistant) by George Bickham (Easy, right ... Bickham was a master scribe AND a master engraver, so these are at a standard of perfection that nobody has ever equalled. But this book is more helpful than Bickham's Universal Penman. 18th century English roundhand.)

Just checked. All of these are available on Amazon for $7 or less.

Hi Bill ... I always appreciate your detailed replies. Its encouraging.

Yes I am struggling with the spacing. Maybe I shld write standing up, ie further from the paper. I seem to get better results. I believe its the height of the writing surface in relation to the elbow. I think I need to relax alot more. Its funny - relax but concentrate . Rather different from other hands where its flowing. Now I understand that its very much 'drawing' the letters. Somehow I find the Script hand easier to control. (the sample lessons posted on our FPN)

How do you join the letters especially 'f ' and ' e ' ? as in ' feel ' - I find that the ' e' after the 'f' is hard to maintain the same shape. I must be doing something wrong.

[ You can spend a very long time trying to equal the engraved pages and I don't recommend it unless you enjoy discouragement. ]

I think thats wahts happening to me..... But I am looking at the other masterpenmen, and they seem to achieve perfection ... hmmm ... really wonder how they do it.

I will look up the books. Very little on Copperplate in the library and bookstoires here. Shipping is expensive even tho the books are cheap. Thanks for the recommendations.

I also notice that fountain pen inks don't look as good with dip nibs. The irongall ink is great. But I find it very corrosive. Do u have the same experience?

Do you have any experience with Japanese dip nibs? I bought some from Kinokuniya here. Its all in Japanese and I can't figure out what they're saying. They had a few types so I chose what I thot wd be suited to Copperplate. They don't seem to flex as well as the ones I recently bought. But the Japanese steel is fantastically superior. The Irongall has no corrosive effect on it !

I used a drafting table and sat on a stool. Could adjust the height and angle of the table, padded green plastic cover on the table, had a good draftsman's lamp and lots of north light all day from a big window, it was a very nice setup. It was a big investment, more than you'd likely want to make for a hobby. But it was comfortable and I could work for hours without fatigue. Of course, being 20 to 30 years younger than I am now, and in better physical shape, might have had something to do with that, too.



I'd say you've got the idea. Breathing. Learn to breathe. If you know anyone who practices yoga or transcendental meditation, ask them to teach you what they know about breathing.



Not sure I know what to tell you. I no longer have any of my copperplate work so I don't have anything to scan and post, and I don't have any of the equipment any more to make you an example even if my right arm and hand still worked right. Different letter combinations will give you different problems as you learn. Look at the negative space between the f and the e and work on making it right, rather than on making the letters right. Also check the part of the f that descends below the line. If you change it, does that affect the "e"?


A lifetime of practice, in a world that was not as rushed as ours, that probably had a saner balance between life and work, music that had a different tempo and quality, expectations that allowed for perfection in something as simple as writing, and in the case of Bickham a genius that has never quite been matched. Don't compare yourself to them. You'll never be happy with the comparison. Listen for the day when other people compare your work to the masters, and believe that the day will come. Anything else is a neurosis.


I don't believe I ever used irongall ink. Mostly I used the same ink that draftsmen used or artist's india ink. I did use English calligraphy inks and Brause inks, but sfair none of them were iron gall. No experience with Japanese nibs either.

It seems that you are becoming happier with your results. If you are happier for the sake of the letters, you are making progress and I am happy for you.

I 've been pondering about sloping writing surfaces...

I had thought that the idea is to keep the nib as horiizontal as possible to the paper. Reason being to achieve maximum flex with minimum pressure , and to cut down toothiness of the nib on paper.

By using a sloping writing surface, doesn't that make the nib more perpendicular to the paper ?

With a sloped surface at a low angle (15-20 degrees), you're resting your hand and forearm on the surface. The nib angle to the paper surface is virtually the same as when the writing surface is flat.

Steeper slopes are harder to work on, partly because of the angle problem you cite, partly because you start fighting gravity in addition to controlling the pen.

tks for the reply...

will post tomoro morning, a small page of my latest attempt...

have also just ordered a copy of "mastering copperplate calligraphy " by Eleanor winters from Borders here...

this one's smaller in size now , I think easier to control .... from a page of my journal bcos I think the paper is smoother....

Brause 66EF nib , Irongall ink. Oblique holder.

tried Ann's Script hand on the other page with Japanese Nikko "G" nib ... nice nib but very hard , ie don't flex easily.


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Your efforts are looking great! Pretty soon you'll be showing us that you've done this with a flexible quill!

Best, Ann

I think you're sacrificing control by going to the notebook -- the pages don't lay flat, and you are losing your base line and your constant angle as a result.

See if you can find some of the cheaper (non-archival) bristol board to work on, so that you have a quality surface. If not that, then get a BIG spiral wire-bound sketch pad so that the pages lay flat. A Canson Pro-Layout Marker Pad is a good choice (you can find places on the Web where you can order them: e.g. John Neal at http://www.johnnealbooks.com -- lots of nice calligrapher goodies there). The Canson Pad is designed for use with calligraphy pens, including copperplate points.

Because you won't be able to see lines on a guide sheet through bristol (or through heavy sketch paper if you don't get something like the Canson), you are going to need either to rule your guidelines onto the paper (use a 6H pencil and an Ames lettering guide, and make the lines very very light), or you will need to invest twenty bucks in a small Phantom Liner (see it at http://www.paperinkarts.com -- too hard to describe, but it lets you see virtual guidelines on your paper). Twenty bucks is a lot, but you will use that thing so much you will wonder how you did things without it -- and they last forever. Mine (gave it away to another calligrapher who uses it every day) is thirty years old and still looks mint.

On your letterforms, work on those long ascender/descender combos on the letter f, and on the long ascenders such as in the letter l. Their backs are bowed, which may be happening because you are holding your hand in one place and producing the line by moving your fingers. You have to pull those lines down -- this is one place where you really are working with your whole arm from the shoulder down. Also might be pushing too hard to open up your nib.

Spend some time working on the basics -- the stroke elements that you assemble into the finished letters. Practice them until they are crisp, the sides of the strokes are parallel OR evenly tapered, they end at the (same) baseline, and absolutely uniform -- each one the same size as the ones before and after it. Remember, the secret isn't in making wide lines, it's in controlling your pressure so that you get very very fine hairlines (another thing you seem to be working on), and it's in that baseline.

Finally, I see what you mean about your letter spacing, but I think once you go back to working on flat paper/bristol board AND practice the basic elements you will find it easier to regulate that spacing.

I hope this helps. As always, keep practicing!

Hi Bill ....
Exactly the kind of advice/coaching I need...

This writing with the whole arm is something I need to learn. You are right that the letters are bowing due to finger movt instead.

This is challenging. Frankly , I feel like giving up already ...

I will wait for E Winters book to give me the added motivation to press on...

I am totally lost on Bristol boards etc ...

I can't tell you how many times I felt like giving up during the process of acquiring copperplate skills. There was one thing going for me, to keep my motivation up: people would pay me for the work. (Well, some people would. Others would just whine about the price. A few would disappear when it came time to pay, and I would have the opportunity to introduce them to the wonders of Small Claims Court.) But in my experience, most (like almost all) people give up before they master the skills. Can't help you there -- it's worth it to you or it isn't, and you've already had a taste of how it can take over your life.

What's the mystery about bristol boards? Single-ply up through 4-ply, student grade or archival, cold press or hot/"kid" finish. Comes in sheets approximately 2 feet on a side (usually -- specialty paper companies can get you bigger ones if you need them). Order via the internet. For calligraphic work, single or double ply (single for practice), cold press only. Student grade is ok for practice. When you want to do something that will be "for keeps" use two-ply archival grade with cold press finish. Bristol is more expensive than other kinds of paper, but I used to love working with it. You can get a depth and luminosity with a good black ink on bristol that you just can't get any other way.

Marker layout pads are very easy to find at art supply stores and online. You don't have to buy Canson. Strathmore makes very nice marker pads, and even the off-brands are usually pretty good (as long as the paper isn't too thin -- judge by the way it feels between thumb and forefinger).

You're using iron gall ink, which is fine and a traditional choice. You might enjoy trying an ink that has a sheen after it dries. "FW" ink is a good choice (acrylic base), as is Badger Opaque (which is the "old" FW formula, made with shellac, and now used by cartoonists and airbrush artists). Winsor & Newton also makes an exquisite ink for calligraphers, although it doesn't "shine" on the paper. For practice, Higgins Eternal is good (though non-waterproof), cheap and readily available.

If you're having trouble with a nib biting into the paper and tearing, dragging along little bits of fiber and fuzz, change nibs. All nibs wear out, some very quickly. Also some are bad from the start (most are just sheet metal stampings, no hand tuning or checking done at all). That's why the supply places sell them six to a card or by the dozen. When you start working with bristol board, you may find that the nibs wear out more quickly than on the marker pads.

If you're going to keep at it, keep practicing the basics. Work on shorter quotes (one or two lines long) as you learn to maintain your baseline. Do quotes in Latin or French, Italian, or Spanish: for some reason, it seems to be easier to handle spacing while you are learning if you don't recognize the words (I'm assuming you don't read Latin or French, etc.). I think it's because a foreign language forces you to look at the shapes and not the words. Save your best piece from the week and put it up where people can see and admire it -- praise and adulation from people is an important part of staying motivated!

Thanks Bill for the detailed reply.

I need some coaching. What is the correct penhold? Some website had a 4 line description something like :

all knuckles facing upwards

the middle and 4th fingernail glides on paper

stem of holder on fleshy part between thumb and forefinger.

How does one move vertically downwards without swaying off the true path?

'scratching head'

Well ...
the book arrived today ... collected it from borders .....

will find time to see what Eleanor Winters teaches...