Sorry to repeat one of my earlier points but steel (stainless that is) should be a better carrier for the nib tip than a gold alloy. If gold alloy is better someone had better tell Tiger Woods. Few people have more to gain over the right flexibility and feel of the instrument tip then professional golfers. (Cost not an issue with million dollar+ prizes.)

Corrosion was a problem - I am not a metallurgist but modern stainless steel seems very corrosion resistent to me. In my limited experience you are likely to see more pitting on the body of gold pens than those made of stainless steel.

As this is getting away from cheap versus expensive pens (partly my fault) would a separate discussion on nib materials be worthwhile - with some expert views welcome?

Peter

I strongly second the suggestion for a new discussion of nib materials !!!

Actually, typical "stainless steel" knives in your kitchen are NOT stainless but stain/rust resistant; as soon as you include iron into the alloy there is a capability of corrosion.

No. Gold (especially the higher Ks) is much less prone to corrosion than stainless steel. Couple of years ago I wrote this article that discusses some of these issues.

I would like to add that it is possible to make nibs from many materials, starting from feathers to plastics, stainless steel, titanium, gold to space alloys. The bottom line is that today the key criterion of materials selection for FP nibs is neither performance nor durability but rather cost and aesthetics/perception.

"Stainless steel" is really "stain resistant". Stainless steel will corrode and oxidize.

Golf clubs are made for strength, flexibility and elasticity. Unless you plan to repeatedly stab something with your pen, the same amount of each is no as important with nibs. (As an aside, I doubt many professional gold clubs shafts are made of steel. I would think graphite fabric or some other such is the thing these days for golf clubs.)

I would think that a combination of modulus of elasticity of the metal alloy used and the design of the nib (thickness, width and shape) has the most effect on nib "feel".

I have no idea what metal or alloy or coating is best for wicking the ink from the feed to the paper.

Out of all the different nibs that I have, and all the gold, steel and titanium nibs on my pens, I have to say that 14kt feels the best.

I have several 21kt gold nibs
Numerous 18kt gold nibs
Countless 14kt gold nibs
a few 10kt gold nibs
a few Titanium
and several Steel

If I were to be blind folded and given several of my pens to write with, I would say that the 14kt gold nibs are usually the ones I would choose. Still it is a loaded question because it still depends on the thickness of the nib its self. Sailor 21kt gold has some of the highest gold content in regards to nibs but they are thick and the ones I have translates to stiff. Maybe the 21kt sailor nibs need more material to reinforce the softer nibs. But it seems that I chose the Visconti 14kt nibs on the Van Gogh's, Lamy, and some of my Sheaffers and Earlier Pelikan pens. Not to say that the 18kt or 21 kt are not to my liking BUT the 14kt nibs that I picked out are very natural feeling with the nibs being a bit thinner than some of the others in my collection.

Now are these the best material for a nib to be made with?, For me only but not for everyone else. To say that the reason why i chose and lean towards the gold nibs are because they are gold, is really not that true at all!!! The Lamy That I picked out is actually the Safari and the Pelikan is my M75 Go along with a few of my 14kt 400nn. So it is all on a personal level. I prefer the older 14kt gold nib on my 149 rather than the modern 18kt gold nibs ont he 149. There are many other pens where I prefer a lower gold content.

As what Antonio says, I agree in part but a lot of the pens made with cheaper materials can be used successfully but here are the major issues. Do they really put the time, effort and research into, the pens balance, weight and nib performance? That remains to be seen. If Pelikan, Lamy, Bexley, Stipula and the list goes on and on, if they were to try alternate materials for nib creations, such as different metals other than Steel, Gold and Titanium. If they are able to keep the integrity of the rest of the pen, have a good balance, filling methods and a nib that would rival that of the commonly used materia along with being extremely durable and not having to throw it awayl, I would be willing to try it out. Unfortunatly, there is very little choice and as of right now, I have to say that Gold and Steel are the best materials to us. And when I say that, I have to take into account the rest of the pen, for me a feather or dip pen is not comfortable at all for me to use at all.

So As of now, I still have to choose Gold and some steel nibs as the material of choice!! FOR ME!!!!!

TNS

Is copper a suitable nib material? I read that the Duke Mini-Torpedo has a copper nib, but i can't remember if it's solid or plated. Does anyone have any experience with copper nibs?

We need to get a Richard Binder gold and a Richard Binder steel nib and compare.

There are no nibs made out of "gold," they are made out of gold alloys.

This is an important distinction, because if the "gold" nib feels so great it may have more to do with whatever metals the gold is alloyed with.

If a pen skips, it has nothing to do with the metal (unless it's corroded) and everything to do with the feeder system.

If the pen isn't a smooth writer, it's a combination of the ink flow (feeder system) and the quality of the tip. Once again, this has nothing to do with the metal used for the non-tip part of the nib.

So the only issue is whether a non-stiff nib is better, and if that's the case, what's the best alloy with which to make a non-stiff nib?

I have to admit that I'm not an expert on these matters, so apologies in advance if I explained it wrong.

Unless of course you consider flexible nibs that write varying width lines with varied pressure.

Then the smoothness and ink flow are equally dependent on the flexibility of the nib (which includes design and materials)

And unless a nib is as stiff as a nail (and I have some that are) every nib will have some flex and hence the nib material will effect smoothness and ink flow.

I think that is a statement that is rather uhh, how can we say, splitting hairs. It is like saying tipping material is iridium. Iridium is not used anymore, but it is a general term that is thrown out there. It simplifies the term. I dont think that there is enough room on a nib to print "iridium, osmium and ruthenium point Germany"
It is Gold alloy or not, it is still made out of gold but not pure 100% gold, now depending on the gold content vs alloys used will give a purity rating.




If the pen skips, it can have something to do with the material if, the tines are pinched too close together, tipping material has a burr or is worn down. As for corrosion, you really dont have to worry about that too much with gold nibs. As for the writing qualities of pens, I believe the nib material has something to do with how the pen feels while writing. Just as Glenn stated about Flexible nibs. The nib material, width, thickness, composition, smooth tipping material and the users pressure has everything to do with how a pen writies.




Only the user can determine if a nib is better or not. There are so many variables as to what a good or better nib is. If you are looking for a flex or semi flax nib, you not only have to look at the materials but also the thickness of the nib. Flexible nibs will generally be thinner than stiff nibs. I am sure that the composition of the metal is also important. You brought up the fact in the other thread that if a nib was 100% gold, it would flop over. I think the same applies. I would say a steel or 14kt nib that is being customized to a flexible nib would be better than using an 18 or 21kt gold nib. If I remember correctly, it was either Mottishaw or Binder but one of them will not customize 18kt nibs into an extra flexible. I think it is a stability issue.


As for copper, I dont think copper its self would be a great material. I am sure Antonio can go more into depth than I ever can. I know that copper oxidizes so the copper on that Duke pen (which I bought one for the wife) could be copper plated with something mixed in there to prevent oxidation.

TNS

Richard doesn't make nibs he only modifies existing ones. Better to see if you can get a Bock steel and gold nib.



I think as well we all have overlooked the possibility that many steel nibs are not tipped with anything but just folded tips.



K

You might be interested in this from John Mottishaw... http://www.nibs.com/WhyUseGoldNibs.htm
or this one - by Richard Binder... http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref_info/nib_steel.htm


Gerry

[Edit: to add the Binder reference...]

Figuring out the best pen is too complicated, I'm going to buy a notebook computer instead.

Yes, but then you will have to figure out the BEST notebook computer.

I think you are all correct because there are two ways of looking at this question -
What is technically the best material for nib manufacture?
What do I believe is the best material?
The answers can be different and this will help explain why (to me at least).

Researchers put tasteless green dye in bread. People that ate the bread did not like the taste. Champagne in a crystal cut-glass glass will taste better than in a cheap cracked cup. Our perceptions are based upon our beliefs. We will notice what we do not like in the taste of the green bread and cup champagne rather than what we do like.
Sayings such as “we find what we look for” and “self-fulfilling prophecy” are really relevant.

If you believe that that gold nibs are best, then for you, they really will be. Which political party do you support, what car do you drive, what is the best pen? Wouldn’t life be boring if we all had identical thoughts.

Many thanks for your comments – if price wasn’t much of an issue I would choose gold. The feel may or may not be much different (you decide) but the feeling certainly is!

Peter

A plastic cup really does feel different than a champagne flute. Green bread does look different than normal colored bread.

But no one can tell the difference between a pen with a gold plated steel nib and one with a solid gold alloy nib.

My understanding is that nib tips are generally made of iridium - regardless of the metal content of the nib itself.

All I can say is that from my own experience, 18k gold nibs have been far better than any other metal combination. I've often found steel nibs to be scratchy.

The best nib material, in my humble opinion, is that on the pen that works best for you.

Being that I'm new to the whole fountain pen thing (and this board), I can't really speak with any sort of authority about nibs. I am, however, a machinist and I happen to know a thing or two about metals.

First of all, all metals corrode, even gold. It's just how the universe works. Gold does tend to corrode a whole lot slower than many other metals though.

Stainless steel and corrosion-resistant steel are the same thing. The same way you add a certain percentage of carbon to iron to get steel, you add a certain percentage of chromium to steel to get stainless. The chromium at the surface that gets exposed to the air forms an invisible layer of chromium oxide which is too thin to be visible, but protects the steel and keeps it from (or at least dramatically slows the process of) oxidizing, or otherwise corroding. A dramatic example of this would be the green layer that forms on copper in places like the Statue of Liberty, and the copper roofing in old cities like Philadelphia and Boston. The outer layer of corrosion actually protects the underlying copper, and consequently many of those copper roofs are well over one hundred years old.

In stainless steel you're just substituting the layer of chromium oxide (which is so small as to be basically insignificant) for the layer of iron oxide which would normally form (and be very, very annoying on a pen nib).

Theoretically, since the sort of gold alloy that would most likely be used for something like a pen nib would be a combination of gold and copper, or gold, copper and tin (brass/bronze); stainless steel should be the more durable of the two. But because stainless tends to be much softer than regular steel due to it's chromium content, any practical difference in wear may actually work out to be not very noticeable in the long run.

This is pretty generalized, there are tons of variables, and about a million things that can effect the hardness and durability of the alloys, and it's all pretty esoteric and boring. Basically what it all boils down to is the quality of the manufacturing, the quality of the raw materials used in that manufacturing, and ultimately to what you just generally prefer in a nib. But from a strictly metallurgical point of view, the best options for low corrosion/high durability wouldn't be gold or stainless at all, but rather something like iridium, platinum, or titanium that are as (or more) corrosion resistant as stainless, but are generally much harder metals. However, I imagine there is something of a trade off as a softer metal would probably give the smoother writing experience even if it does wear out faster.


Wow... That turned out to be much longer than I'd planned. I hope somebody finds all that helpful.

Welcome Noh!

Noh,

I think you've brilliantly explained the science and engineering behind why nibs are made with a hard tip & softer backing metal!

Regards

Richard.

NOH, fascinating post. Would there be a better material than 14ct gold for a flex nib? I suppose I'm bewailing the fact that there seem to be only a couple of proper flex-nib pens on the market these days. Is it the material cost?

Yes, this is my experience too. I've bought steel-nibbed pens in the past (why not? They're all iridium tipped. What's the difference?). But I've found that my 18ct Sheaffer Legacy is the smoothest writer. My 14ct flex-nibbed pens (once adjusted) are also smooth and some 'whisper' delightfully across the page. Of course, a flex nib feels entirely different from a heavy-duty Sheaffer nib.

But I have never had a steel nibbed pen that can compare. I've had problems with scratch, especially on the up stroke. You never seem able to push a steel nib the way you can a gold nib. Prejudice on my part? Perhaps a little bit, but there DOES seem to be a difference, though I'm quite wiling to be persuaded otherwise.

By the way, I'd love to try a Sheaffer feather-touch nib. I've read wonderful things about them but I've never used one. Oh dear! I feel another purchase coming on.

Well, a small addition.

What you actually write with, IOW, what teaches the paper when writing, is the tipping material, which needs to be very wear resistant. This is why (rounded) iridium ore pieces were used in a "far" gone past, iridium pellets and iridium alloys later again, and these days mostly ruthenium if I am not entirely mistaken. That's for the better pens of course. Very cheap pens still have folded metal or even plain solder tipping.

Regarding the stability of stainless steel: it doesn't cope all that well, compared to 14K or higher gold alloys, to exposure to inks. Antonios showed, a couple of years ago, what ink can do to a stainless steel nib. It really corrodes it badly, whereas gold alloys don't suffer the same effect.

One material that has been used in nibs as well over the last 10 years or so, is titanium. However, many of those nibs were not satisfactory, because they flex so much and so easily, and many people have problems writing with them properly. A little too much pressure, and the nib lifts off the feed, creating ink starvation and hence severe skipping. Iridium of course is poisonous, one of the reasons they stopped using it, and platinum is a little bendy, and very expensive. It is used as plating most of the time, as is rhodium of course .

All in all, gold alloy nibs seem the best compromise for wear, (chemical) corrosion resistance, and characteristics for use as a nib, followed by stainless steel.

Warm regards, Wim

Another thought.

I have bought a number of vintage British flex-nibbed pens. Sometimes when I receive one, I find that the nib scratches. I examine the tines and adopt what I assume was the previous user's writing angle. The scratch disappears. A little fine adjustment under a magnifying glass, and the nib writes smoothly using my own natural angle and style. Once it is writing smoothly, it remains smoothe. Trying to adjust a steel nib has never given me such satisfactory results.

Is it that a gold nib more readily moulds itself to a writer's style, and responds better to adjustment? If so, it must surely be considered a superior material.

Please feel free to shoot me down.

Unless the tipping has disappeared completely, you actually adjusted the rounding of the tipping material that way.

Vintage tipping material tends to be much softer than modern tipping materials, but I can assure you you can get similar if not better results from modern tipping materials, whether on a gold or steel nib. It just requires more work, or more patience , as modern tipping materials are harder and tougher.

If there is no tipping, yes gold is softer than steel, and hence smoothes more easily, but you don't really want to write with a nib without tipping, at least, I wouldn't, unless it is a dip pen.

BTW, the tipping is the dull grey to shiny metal at the extreme tip of the nib, often shaped like a little ball or pellet. If it is dull grey it normally requires smoothing, although that may also be caused by the fact that it is metal ore (iridium) rather than a pellet of pure metal or alloy.

Warm regards, Wim

Surely the reverse can also be true. If I bought a super-expensive car, I would expect a dream ride and flawless performance. Anything less would disappoint. I would find problems and flaws that I would possibly not even notice in a more normally-priced car.

Similarly, if I paid £12,000, or even £500 for a new Conway Stewart, I would expect an out-of-this-world writing experience. I wouldn't know beforehand how the pen would feel and write, but I would expect to be blown away by the experience. Anything less than the complete fulfilliment of my vague fantasy would disappoint.

Champagne might taste better out of a cut crystal glass, if it's merely offered to me at a wedding. (Actually, I don't like Champagne). But If I go out and buy very expensive crystal, and blow £100 on the bottle of Champagne, will I be so easily impressed? Might I not wonder if the experience was worth the price and think: "Actually, it tastes as good, or almost as good, out of an ordinary glass." And might I not wonder of the Champagne itself was worth the £80 premium, thinking that I could have bought ten or more bottles of very acceptable wiine for the price?

My 18ct Sheaffer Heritage is my smoothest writer - no question. It also writes smoothly at any angle and under any reasonable degree of pressure. No steel-nibbed pen has ever come within a mile of it. Of course, these have been cheaper pens, but the point is that had my experience with the Legacy been less than first rate, I would have bitched about it far more than I would had it been a cheaper pen.

I have to add that my most satisfacory expeiences have been with realtively inexpensive vintage 14ct flex-nibbed pens that I have bought often for half the price that a good new steel-nibbed pen would have cost.

I haven't read everything here, but both gold and steel as metals for making nibs, have their advantages and disadvantages.

I will not attempt to be an expert on this stuff, but I'll say what I think. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, if I'm right, so be it - I scored a hit.

Gold is well-known as a being an inert metal. It reacts to almost nothing and it doesn't rust (either much, or at all). Apart from that, it looks nice. But pure gold is too soft to be used in nibs, so it's alloyed (mixed) with copper, to make it stronger. You get the flashiness of gold, with the strength of a reinforcing metal - this creates a good nib.

Plain steel and iron will corrode a lot more than gold. I've been using the same detachable steel nib in my dip-pen for the last three months and within a week it had already lost it's shine. It has been very badly stained by ink and is now quite rusty. It has not broken. Yet.

Steel is cheaper than gold - obviously, and to make it more rust-resistant, it's given a coating to make 'stainless steel'. But this make it any-better a material than gold for a pen-nib? I don't think so.

Gold on it's own is too weak, even if it doesn't rust.

Steel on it's own rusts too easily, even though it's strong.

Both metals require some sort of strengthening agent or alloy before it can be used to make a nib. To say one is better than the other...Well, I don't think one IS better than the other, because they both have their problems and neither without another material's help, is any good as a nib-metal in the first-place.

---

I was reading Huffward's post about gold nibs and flexibility and 'moulding itself to the writer's natural angle' etc. That's some very interesting food for thought. But then, is gold really more flexible than steel? Any metal, if it's thin enough, has the ability to bend.

Yes, I've found that the older tipping material is softer on the rare occasions when I've resorted to crosus paper. But the adjustment I'm talking about in the main is tine adjustment.

Regards

Chris

Corrosive ink. I understood that, historically, gold was used because the earlier inks were highly acidic (like the present Diamine Registrars ink). Gold, or gold alloy, was much more resistant to this than many other metals. With most modern inks, this problem has considerably abated. Of course, an untreated steel nib will still corrode in time in any ink.

Hi Chris,

In that case I think it is about personal preferences more than anything else, as tine adjustment is tine adjustment, whether the nib is gold, steel, platina or any other material. The feedback and feel from a flex nib is rather different than from a stiff modern steel nib, though, and maybe that is what makes the difference for you.

Personally, I like both stiff nibs, for speed of writing, taking notes and all that, like the Edson nib, and springy nibs, like the Stipula nibs, but the latter for the pleasure they give when writing, due to their tactile feedback.

Warm regards, Wim

Hi Chris,

Yes, exactly, even for non-corrosive inks. Just plain water actually corrodes nibs too, and steel nibs always suffer the most. This is due to potential differences between the fluid, and the metals used for making a nib. Plating exacerbates this, too.

At least, that is what I understood from the posts I've read on this by people in the know about the subject.

Warm regards, Wim

Yes, you're probably right. I was interested to see that you use stiff nibs for quick writing and flexy nibs for 'pleasure' writing. I use my Sheaffer Legacy for quick day-to-day writing, but the flex-nibbed pens for pleasure.

Kind regards

Chris

Does anyone know why a platinum alloy wouldn't be used for a nib? Are there properties of platinum alloys that would make it a poor choice? Is it just the high cost of platinum that precludes it?

And weren't there some Sheaffers with silver nibs in the 1950s? What about silver?

That and the high cost of making platinum alloys I would think. It is a very small market, if it even exists, while gold alloys is a huge market.

Warm regards, Wim

Well, silver almost corrodes while you're looking at it, so it will be even worse in contact with inks, I would think.

Warm regards, Wim

The stuff gold is alloyed with is generally much more prone to corrosion than the gold itself.

That said, everything does react under the right circumstances, even the noble gases smaller than Radon (Radon being radioactive because of its molecule size).

The three Sheaffer snorkels I have with silver/palladium points seem to be holding up pretty well. I would think a bronze point would be pretty sturdy, once it was fully patinated.

And what about the exotic amorphous steels? I understand that's got good potential for a combination of tough, flexible and corrosion resistant.

{ponders area 51 reverse-engineered alien super-FP, goes to change underwear}

I won't disagree there, of course copper would rust, but I was referring more to it's strengthening necessities in allowing someone to make a gold nib without worrying about the tines being broken due to a weak metal.

I think I recall that gold is usually alloyed with copper and nickel. Secondly, different metals have varying porosities due to their density. For example the use of lead due to its atomic weight gives it lubricating qualities. Gold is close to lead on the atomic weight chart. So what this means is that the metal may contribute in two ways to a smoother writing experience. On the molecular level, it can be finished to a greater precision, secondly it may be inherently smoother due to its molecular structure.