OK, I guess that I'll post something. I have been practicing (almost every day) for about 2 months. I do better with slow writing as does, I presume, everybody else. I am not satisfied with the evenness of the letter size, consistency in letter shapes, but I think I am getting better with consistent slant of my letters.

My practice started out with sentences: Quick wafting zephyrs vex bold Jim, The quick brown fox..., and the other sentences that Ann posted. I then went to copying text from a variety of sources, but recently I have jotted down things from the day. It occurred to me that this was probably journalling, something that I have never done, nor have aspired to do so, but this is pretty enjoyable.

I solicit a couple of things. 1) Comments on how I can improve - it is already a lot better than it was. In fact, medical records brought a chart to the office for the office manager to confirm the signature, because they knew it wasn't mine since they could read it! (Not unjustified, mind you.) and 2) tell me about journalling. Type of notebook or pad, length, what kind of content do you put in, etc.

Anyway here is my handwriting practice for today. I was writing faster toward the end and I note deterioration especially in the last few lines.

Thanks for your suggestions, information and advice. I would like to be as accomplished as Ann (eventually)

Jack

If the image needs to be modified, let me know.

Wow! That looks nice to me. I'd love to see a "before" photo; some writing from more than two months ago for comparison.

I'm massively impressed. Keep it up, Jack.

Ray

Very nice....
But you, of course, know that you can no longer be referred to as a Doctor....
Your hand writing is too neat and easy to read...
I bet your staff loves the ability to read your notes...

Beautiful. I wouldn't change a thing, except to work on writing more quickly. I'm sure this takes you much longer than it formerly did to write?

Ron

Lovely handwriting! The ONLY thing that could make it better would be using a dip nib pen that would give you a thick-thin line. This would, however, slow you down even more.

I think it looks great! I wish I had the patience....

Thanks to all the replys so far. The complements are appreciated. I found, earlier today, a sample from 1 April and I do see improvement in the last month, and that is also encouraging.

I will try to find a before sample and will post it, but I warn in advance "It ain't gonna be pretty!".

OldGriz: Earlier this week I had to come in to take care of 2 month premature twins and while I was up in the Nursery one of the Ward Clerks told me that I was "a Ward Clerks dream", so I guess the staff does appreciate being able to read the notes and orders.

RonB: It does still take longer than I would like, but while practicing I try first to get the sizes, shapes, and angles right, but then try to pick up the speed. (Things start to go downhill at that point.) I am hoping that practicing that way will let me improve on the quality and then the speed of my handwriting. If that is not valid logic, I would be grateful for other suggestions.

jbb: Actually, I prefer my italic nib (Pendemonium 0.8mm for the Pelikan M200), but I am trying to use the ink in the Phileas up, so I am writing with it a lot now. On some nights I write with multiple pens and inks so that I can get more consistent with the different "feels" of the different pens. I haven't used a dip pen much, and although I would enjoy it (and may try it in the future), I need to use a fountain pen at work since dip pens are impractical for much of what I do. I guess that I'll have to put that on hold for a while.

Thanks again for responding.

Jack

Oh my goodness...

Nice work, Jack! One thing that often helps when practicing is to study the shapes of the white spaces in your model (bowls of the letters, wedges, etc.)

Since no one has posted about journals yet, I'll make a couple of comments. I used to be a regular at journaling--but seldom used FPs! For calligraphy workshop notes taken in regular lined notebooks I used Pelikan 4001 Blue, and a sepia that isn't made anymore. These inks weren't very saturated and didn't bleed through.

If you look through the posts in the P&PPR&A forum you'll find a lot of suggestions. Pendemonium has a large variety of journals (click on stationery), and Black & Red is also one folks seem to like.

HTH,
Ann

Wonderful handwriting. I will definitely look forward to the before shots. And I'm amazed this was done with a Phileas fine point!
About journaling - Clairefontaine is my favorite these days, and I generally write about thoughts, philosophy, events, how I'm feeling, and ideas for articles. For my notetaking when I'm at work (at a university) I like Black n' Red, ruled and margin - nice paper, pretty good perforation, and a really sturdy build (see www.blacknred.com. Contrary to what many other say, I also like the Moleskine plain journals (no lines) - great little book, it has pockets, a sturdy design, a bookmark, and it lays very flat - you just can't use certain inks if you want to write on both sides of the paper because it can bleed pretty badly.

I wish I could write like that.

1)
The one thing I see is that your descenders aren't the same for all letters. You sort of have a swoop to the left or a near perpindicular line cut. The only reason I saw this is probably because that's one of my problems as well



2)
As for journaling I have two journals one is a Moleskine pocket grid that pretty much everything goes into. My present one has storm stuff and daily ramblings as well as a list of addresses and people who have written to me ( I use to keep that in my palmpilot but have moved it to paper again). I also have a 'master' journal where I keep lists of books and other notes that I want to keep together, it is more like a florilegium than anything else.


Good writing sample all around!

K

I will try looking at the white spaces both in exemplars and in what my output looks like.

I am very confused as to which descenders (and ascenders) to use. I like the "flags" at the tips, but when writing at faster speeds, the p's and t's and d's tend to lose them. So, the question is do I forget them except when using a calligraphy nib at slower speeds or to I persist and try to remember to do them all the time. I don't know which way to go, but I am leaning toward the latter. Suggestions welcome.

Thanks

Jack

Folks that use italic as a truly running hand would not have flags on the ascenders or descenders. I do an "informal," partly joined Chancery italic. If I were you I'd forget the flags except when you are writing more slowly with an italic nib. The reason I don't do this myself is because I've always feared I'd get in the habit of doing italic in a hurried, sloppy manner. Thus, when I write more quickly I just use a Palmer-type script--which I also enjoy using (though for quite some time I almost always used Chancery script and wrote more slowly.)

Best, Ann

My friend, that is some fine writing, doctor or not, and a level of legibility that all doctors should strive to achieve, or at least close enough to it, for their instructions, prescriptions, and memos.

R.ticle One

Thanks Ann, your advice is truly appreciated. Here is where I am confused and solicit your advice. (By the way I just, this morning, saw your photo on the post your portrait pinned topic. I am pleased to be able to see who I specially want to meed at the St. Louis Pen meeting.) I bought the Getty/Dubay Write Now - Revised edition to guide me in starting and, indeed, they recommend no flags for non-edged pens and flags on the edged pens. But, in finding Mr. Pickering's website (spectacular - of course), I note that despite using non-edged or italic nibs his letter forms are the same. I prefer to write with an italic nib, but most of my day to day pens are not italic. (Still looking for that Esterbrook italic nib - perhaps at the Chicago Show.) I would like to be able to write with an edged nib at least relatively quickly and I am unsure of which direction to practice. That is, do I practice with a regular nib like it was an italic or make a clear distinction in my handwriting style depending on which nib style I am using at the time. This ambivilance, I think, hinders my improvement since at times I "flag" and other times, I do not.

Thanks again for your valued comments and suggestions.

Jack

Jack, you pointed out that James Pickering's letter forms are the same whether or not he is using an italic or pointed nib (which is true), but he is not showing what I was referring to as a running hand (joined letters)...Have a look Pickering - italic with reg. FP.
(Using flags requires lifting the pen, which means you'll be writing at least somewhat more slowly even after you're accomplished at it.)

It looks to me like your considerations are:
1. How fast do you need to write in your daily work.
2. What do you personally like the looks of?

Personally, I rarely like the looks of "rapid italic"--a truly running (joined) hand done with a pointed nib...But you may like the looks of it.

You say you would like to be able to write with an edged nib at least relatively quickly. Lots of FP folks buy & use edged nibs--but most aren't doing italic writing (or even trying to!) They're simply giving their regular handwriting a little character and enjoying the nib in that respect. You could do that, too.

If you want to be able to do a Chancery script similar to what James P. and I do, expect to use an edged nib quite slowly for quite awhile until you get the letter forms down pat. Practicing quickly usually results in reinforcing mistakes. Initially, it helps to practice with a nib about 2.0 mm or a little larger.

So, to sum it up (and answer your question, I hope ) my advice to you is:
If you want to do "rapid italic," practice with a regular nib like it was an italic.
If you want to do a more elegant Chancery script, make a distinction in your handwriting style depending upon which nib type you are using at the time. With the latter, increased speed will come naturally after many hours of practice.

Best, Ann

P.S. Even without seeing my photo you'd have no trouble picking me out at the pen meeting--I seem to be the only female interested in pens in the area! (Maybe that will change though.) If you want to do Chancery script, I can loan you a pen with a 2.0 mm nib. Let me know.

Thank you Ann for the thoughtful reply. I think I would rather do a real italic rather than using an edged nib for showing line variability in a non-italic script. I would appreciate being able to use the pen with the 2.0 mm nib.

In my current attempt at cursive, I want to have a cursive, non-running hand, but two things interfere. First, I have some "automatic" joins - I'll just have to watch (ant think about) them. The second is that, although I, for most letters, lift the pen and form the next letter, I may be putting the letters too closely together and the last part of the first letter touches a part of the second. I suppose that I need to watch my spacing of the letters. I have read that, in general, words should be spaced the size of a lower case "n", but I guess the kerning between letters is not even, but depends on the two letters that are being joined. Your thoughts on spacing would be useful. Is this where the "white space" comes into play?

Thanks again,

Jack

Jack--I just posted (I thought) a long, detailed explanation and answer--and it disappeared (and I am feeling really angry.)

I don't have time to re-do it now. I have plants to plant and a mother-in-law with a broken hip. I'll get back to you, but I don't know just when.

Sorry,
Ann

I'm late to this thread, but have only one comment:

WOW!

I thought that I had improved my handwriting (and I did) but, compared to yours, I have much practice to do and many pages to write.

Jack, in Chancery italic, some “automatic joins” are just fine (if you don’t dislike them)...I use a few all of the time! For example, I usually join “is” and “si”—also “an” (among others)—see the pinned topic Chancery Italic Script Instructions in this forum. Scroll down to the “b” where I wrote “The b is a branching letter”—you’ll see what I mean. I’ll make some notations regarding various types of italic below, since joining of any kind isn’t always acceptable.

I see I’ve forgotten to post anything as yet on spacing. Yes, the width of the minuscule “n” or “o” is usually recommended for word spacing. You’re right—letter spacing does depend on which two letters are adjacent. Letters with parallel/straight sides are given a bit more space between than those slanting away (like a “v”) or those that are rounded. It’s unusual to hear that you tend to put letters too close—usually I hear the opposite! White space does come into play here...But this isn’t what I was referring to earlier in this thread. When you go to the link above, you’ll see what I was referring to with regard to studying the white space within letters, i.e., wedges, & bowls. (Bowl = white space within the basic shape, “a” & “g” and others.)

Some descriptions for clarification:

Formal italic: Never joined. Flags are never used (though sometimes a discreet entrance serif, such as on the minuscule “i,” will be seen on ascenders such as “l” or “k”.) Strict spacing. Barely perceptible slant, usually 2 ½ to 5 degrees. Usually rendered with a sharp, edged dip pen that will produce “hairlines” for maximum thick/thin contrast.

Informal or semi-formal italic (such as Chancery italic script): You may see joins—or not. Flags are commonly used. Spacing is less strict than with formal italic when used as an “everyday hand.” Slant is often seen from 5 to 20 degrees, but should be consistent. (Some guidelines are sold that include slant lines of about 10 degrees.) A fountain pen with an edged/italic nib can be used for everyday work, while a dip pen with an edged nib would be used for formal work.
Note: Chancery italic script is sometimes called Chancery cursive—but is not, strictly speaking, cursive!

Rapid Italic: Joined for rendering at maximum speed—a truly cursive hand. Flags aren’t used because you would have to lift the pen prior to the end of a word. When rendered well, spacing, slant, & letter height will be reasonably consistent. Slant is often greater with increased speed (but should not be beyond 20 degrees, so as to preserve the letter forms and look of this hand.) You will see a range of tools used for rapid italic. Pencils, ballpoints, other pointed nibs and FPs with edged nibs are all used for this everyday hand. Legibility without the loss of speed is of key importance, thus this form of italic is often recommended and taught for handwriting improvement.

Hope this helps,
Ann

Thank you Ann for the most helpful reply. It really helps me to organize my thoughts. I really appreciate it in view of your mother-in-law's broken hip.
I understand better the concept of open space and I do, indeed, need to work on that. Also, the explanations of Formal Italic vs Informal/Semiformal Italic vs Rapid Italic were very helpful. I hope you can make it to the St. Louis Meeting.

Thanks again,

Jack