I just received in the mail today my first cursive italic nib: it is the .7mm steel Pelikan nib from Richard Binder that I'm using in my Pelikan M605. I really like it! It does give my writing a little more line variation, I think. It's a little toothier on the horizontal strokes, but I imagine that is probably normal. Recently, someone questioned on this site if a cursive italic nib would offer some line variation even if they printed. Here is my writing (really a version of printing) that might help others who mostly print answer that question.

I hope this is the correct place to post this.

Ron

I forgot to add that the paper is Clairfontaine and the ink is Noodlers Blue. Here is a closeup of the writing:

Aren't italic nibs fun Do you have a stub nib?

Chupie,

I don't have a stub as of yet. But I am tempted to try one. I'm not really sure what the differences will be, however, between the stub and the cursive italic (even after reading Richard Binder's site a few times).

Ron

I just received a 0.75mm cursive italic from Richard and it's now my favorite nib. I used to swear by the 0.6mm stub (and it is still lovely) but this cursive, in this size is absolutely perfect for my smallish writing but takes me to the edge in line variation. It was sooooo worth the wait - and not only that but the wait afforded me the chance to change my original re-grind request (twice!) but it's realy just gorgeous. I'll hook up the scanner tomorrow and get some photos on.

Congrats on the new nib

It's rounder and not as crisp but awful fun too.

Hi Ron,

In the past, the word stub was used interchangeably with italic, for a nib anyway. Stub refers to the form of the nib, and italic to the type of lettering it will allow you to do.

More recently, with the revival of fountain pens, a stub nib means a very smooth italic nib, with relatively little line variation, in the order of 1.5 to 2.0 (vertical/horizontal line width, e.g., 1mm vs 0.5 mm), I would say. Because it is a very rounded italic with limited line variation, it is very easy to write with, generally as easy as with a normal, rounded or ball nib. A stub has a relatively large so-called sweet spot, i.e., the area that allows for comfortable, easy writing when touching paper.

A cursive italic is an italic with smoothed outer edges, so it doesn't catch so easily on the paper you're writing on. Because of the tipping requirements to smooth these edges, it also has limited line variation, but more than the stub, probably about 2.5 to 3. Its sweet spot is a bit smaller, so you'd have to hold it more prominently at the same angle, same inclination than the stub.

A normal or crisp italic has square/squarish edges, and is more difficult to write with. The sweet spot is quite narrow and distinct. It allows for more line variation, because it requires less tipping material, maybe about 3 to 4 or 4.5, depending on the nib width.

A sharp or sharpened italic often has its tipping about as thin as a knife edge, 0.1 or 0.2 mm. This makes it behave as a knife, too, if you press a little too hard, or hold it a little too much turned away from its even narrower sweet spot. Line variations are probably a max of about 10 (!).

People who want even more line variation, normally turn to untipped calligraphic nibs, which, in general, are sharpened by the people handling them. Because the tipping is the steel of the nib itself, it may require re-sharpening from time to time. The range of line variation is probably something from 4 up to 20?, 30?, 40? - it depends on the nib width. Obviously, it is harder to write with these nibs, if you're not used to handling them.

For examples of line variation and nib widths, let's start from a 1 mm wide nib and try to explain the differences:
a stub - vertical 1 mm line width, horizontal 0.5 mm; variation factor of 2; very smooth to write with
a cursive italic - vertical 1 mm, horizontal 0.35 mm; factor 2.8; smooth, but not very smooth
a normal or crisp italic - vert. 1 mm, hor. 0.25 mm; factor 4; may cut into the paper when writing, has to be held the right way for writing
a sharp italic - vert. 1 mm, hor. 0.15 mm; factor 6.7; hard to write with without practice, cuts paper like a knife if not held exactly right

Note that factory nibs are called stubs or italics, and they normally are called this in the old sense of the word, hence any italic. They tend to be stubs or cursive italics in the new sense of the word, and occasionally they are crisp italics.

Note 2: the line width variances I mention here are derived from my own experience. Because there is no set definition of line width variation, the terms used for different nib approaches and line variations may vary from nibmeister to nibmeister. Generally, the crisper or sharper a nib is, the more distinct the line variation is too, and the harder it is to write smoothly with it.

HTH, warm regards, Wim

Wim, that was very helpful and instructive. So I draw from your comments that a stub would have less line variation but would be smoother. It sounds as if I need another variation

Chupie, do you have both and do you find it worthwhile to have both?

Kelly, I would enjoy seeing your writing with your new nib.

Ron

Here is an example of the stub (factory nib) writing on the Dani Trio

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...?showtopic=9144

And here is the italic nib writing (nib ground by Dillon) on my Pelikan Go!

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...?showtopic=8198

I like them both a LOT. And today I got my Sailor 1911M with music nib, which seems similar to the stub but broader. It feels awfully nice too. I will have to get a sample up tomorrow.

Ah, yes, I remember seeing your posting on this and appreciating the Dani Trio pen and your writing. Very, very nice. Thanks.

Ron

Ron-thanks for the writing sample--it looks like you've mastered line variation--and the great sample of Noodler's Blue. I didn't realize how vivid it is.

One of these days you should try a music nib.
The line variation is incredible!

Hi Ron, rather than start a new tree, I just thought I'd put this photo here in the hopes you'd find it easily. Here's my writing sample (not the best writing but you should see it without the custom nib - really ghastly!) of the 0.75mm cursive italic. And, yes, I have both stubs and italics and like them both very, very much. As everyone has said already, the stub is smoother but the line variation is greater/more distinctive with a cursive. I found that the 0.6mm stub is great for my handwriting size and the 0.75mm cursive italic is perfect, too. Hope this helps and enjoy your nib

Hmmmmm, now I'm wishing I'd had Richard modify the Bexley Submariner I purchased from him. I'm thinking I would have really liked that cursive italic nib. Well, there's always the next one.

Dean

Thank you, Kelly. That looks very nice. How did you pick the size of .75mm? It seems very exact! And I assume you chose a smaller stub size (.6mm) because there is less line variation and you wanted something smaller for your smaller handwritting?

Caboose, you now have an excuse to buy another nib!

Ron

You know I was surprised that you didn't get Richard to whip up something special on the nib, not to mention totally detouring from our twindom ways My first real FP was a Taccia Imp Port that I had ordered from Richard. I wasn't brave enough to try a stub then so I didn't have anything done to it. The I got the 0.6mm for Christmas and fell in love with it...sent back in the Taccia to be re-ground to 0.6mm stub (that's a 12 week wait for the folks reading at home). During that queue eternity, I had the opportunity to try a 0.7mm cursive and thought WOWZA!! In order to maximize the line variation but not get too large, I opted to try a 0.75mm and changed my order - fortunately, it worked out well as I love the size and variation. I still think the 0.8mm would be too large for my writing...next time, bro

You're welcome, Ron. It's been a trial and somewhat- but- not- entirely error figuring out my perfect nib size. I thought I was there with the 0.6mm stub but the cursive has bowled me over! I began with a 0.6mm stub as after reading the differences between stub and cursives, stub was the easier to write with (I don't see that as a hinderance now but had no clue in the beginning) but still have some line variation. I also looked at the samples on Richard's site, posts here, the size of my writing and then jumped in. I have 3 stubs: 2 at 0.6mm and 1 at 0.55mm - again I was experiementing. I like the 0.55 - super smooth but because it is so fine, the line variation suffers and it was at that moment I realized how much line varaition is important to me. I then had the opportunity to try a 0.7mm cursive italic and was hooked something fierce but still felt I could push the variation a bit further, so I tried the 0.75mm and presto! So far I'm sticking to both stubs and cursives and I'm not even going to attempt an oblique until next year

Sis,
You're not helping .
I'm really kicking myself right now. I could have had it with only a week delay for the nib customization...... now I'm at the end of the 12-week line .
Live and learn I always say........ but you knew that.

Surprise, surprise, I have small handwriting like you. So, would you recommend the cursive italic or the stub? I'm gathering from the things I've read that the stub is a more subtle line variation. I don't mind a slight scratchiness, especially if it means a greater width variation.......so, do you think the italic is for me?

Thanks.... and say "HI" to Mom

Dean

I'm coming to the conclusion that, at least for me, cursive italics are not really suited for speed writing. For writing a leisurely letter they are great, but I'd prefer a stub for faster writing.

My next pen from Richard will be a 0.6 mm oblique stub, so we'll see how that plays out. But now you have me thinking... I wonder if a 0.7 mm stub will have more line variation than a 0.6 mm stub ...

Stephen

Wow, Ron - looks great! No mistaking that blue with that nib for a BP!

For Ron, Kelly, and Chupie, how high are your capital letters on average?

I'm thinking about having a couple of Pels reground when I get back to NA in the fall. After a quick discussion with Mr. Binder, I'm pretty sure I'll go with a .6mm stub on one, but I was also wondering about the cursive italics. I'm usually an EF or F kind of guy, but the B Pel I picked up with regrinding in mind has turned out to be so much fun as is, I'm toying with the idea of keeping it quite broad. But then I guess it isn't so practical.

Ryan.

Stephen: A wider stub would probably give more line variation.

About speed:

I just recently got a pen with a 30º left-foot oblique, cursive italic nib (ground from a new-stock, steel, Sheaffer medium by Pendemonium's grinder). I'm right-handed, and I don't rotate pens during writing; this pen is for Hebrew and Chinese. It makes me look better in both scripts . It's smooth-writing and even a little bit flexible.

It's not for fast writing in Hebrew, whether in block style or flourishy modern cursive ("cursive" for Hebrew means shaped for quick writing, but not connected), because some push strokes have put holes in paper. Hebrew, for right-handed writers, uses several push strokes, and this pen needs care for strokes that put the "forward" tine in the lead. Nevertheless, this pen still allows me to write faster in cursive than in block style (the slight rounding of the edges does help). The good-looking letters are worth the slowdown.

In Chinese I write in "block" (elementary school and printed book form, "kai shu") style. So far, my speed experiments in Chinese have put no holes in paper. Kai shu, for right-handed writers, uses very few push movements. I'm slowly working on the two Chinese "cursive" styles, "xing shu" and "cao shu," which require a few more pushes. I haven't tried this pen in those styles yet.

I've ordered, and am waiting for, an Arabic-and-Hebrew-specific calligraphy nib from Richard Binder, which should arrive in about a week. I understand it isn't designed for fast writing.

My capital letters are about 1/4 inch high.

Ron

I didn't even know there were really names to chinese handwriting. I have a whole bunch of chinese fonts and one of them is called "Kaishu", which I like because it's regular but still pretty. I've yet to try writing any chinese with my lamy 1.1 calligraphy nib. I wonder how that will fare. But my chinese writing is very slow anyway. I can't for the life of me read cursive chinese. That means I haven't mastered the language well enough yet. I have to read block characters.

This is a 1mm stub and my writing (pretty average sample too. Caps fill line to line of basic lined paper.)

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...?showtopic=9144

Discussion of Chinese cursive is continuing in "Penmanship," "Chinese cursive handwriting, adults can learn it."

Great thread everyone. I really like seeing all the writing samples, and I hope you enjoy that new nib!

I've been going back and forth on getting a cursive italic from Richard after LOVING my Lamy 1.1 calligraphy nib, even though it's on the thick side. But I can't really decide on the .7mm and the .6mm, and whether to get steel or gold. Just the cost of the nib is enough to buy one extra pen, so it's still going back and forth, though all your discussion is making it mighty hard to hold back. I was going to send in a pen I already had to get regrind, but I heard the wait process was long, and I have no patience for that.