Is it a Urban pen legend or the truth?

[Titivillus]

GIo wrote:

 

You see, one of the biggest misconceptions of the later years is that "fountain pens do NOT adapt to their owner's writing": they certainly do! Some "experts" say that iridium is so hard that it would take a long time for it to be shaped to your writing style: but they miss the fact that it is not the iridium (which, incidentally, does wear to an individual's writing, but it takes a lot of pages!!!) that adapts to the writer: it is the nib itself and, in particular, the tines! This was even more pronounced in the old days, when nibs were flexible and coul take a slightly different position more easily. It is less pronounced with very stiff steel nibs. Your gold nibs are soft enough to adapt to your style of writing.

 

 

My question would then be does a nib adapt to one person's writing style and then isn't good for other people?

 

Another question is that all of these vintage pens out there that have adapted to the original owners writing style. How can they be good for someone else.

 

 

thanks,

 

Kurt H

Edited March 19, 2006 by Tytyvyllus

[chainwhip]

Kurt-

 

I haven't been using fountain pens long enough to really know, but check out Giovanni's response in this thread:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...t=0entry83785

 

-Johnny

[KendallJ]

whoo I jsut got stuck in a circular loop. That thread is where the quote originates from. I think Kurt wants to know if others think Giovanni (aka Gio) is full of it...

[Glenn-SC]

Nibs are made of metal.

With use all metal fatigues, with softer metal, greater stress, or more repeated cycles (i.e. use) causing fatiguing faster.

If you flex a gold nib for 10 years to the way you write, then yes, it will "Match" your writing style.

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

The nib changes its mechanical structure slightly over the years

 

Dillon

Edited March 19, 2006 by Dillo

[tryphon]

GIo wrote:

 

You see, one of the biggest misconceptions of the later years is that "fountain pens do NOT adapt to their owner's writing": they certainly do! Some "experts" say that iridium is so hard that it would take a long time for it to be shaped to your writing style: but they miss the fact that it is not the iridium (which, incidentally, does wear to an individual's writing, but it takes a lot of pages!!!) that adapts to the writer: it is the nib itself and, in particular, the tines! This was even more pronounced in the old days, when nibs were flexible and coul take a slightly different position more easily. It is less pronounced with very stiff steel nibs. Your gold nibs are soft enough to adapt to your style of writing.

 

 

My question would then be does a nib adapt to one person's writing style and then isn't good for other people?

 

Another question is that all of these vintage pens out there that have adapted to the original owners writing style. How can they be good for someone else.

 

 

thanks,

 

Kurt H

Actually, it's very simple. For the moment, forget steel nibs and stiff gold nibs.

Look at soft gold nibs with long tines. It takes but a few pages to set the nib to the writer's style. It takes some very, very tiny changes in nib geometry to change the way it writes! Anyone doing nib work can vouch for this!

So is my nib not good for you?

It depends: if the nib was used for years by a left handed person, it may not be good for a right handed person. But it will eventually adapt to that person's style. (we are not talking about the iridium, that it another story and changes take hundreds, possibly thousand of pages for a writer with a light touch).

Steel nibs are more tolerant and have less character! Still, if the writer is very heavy handed, even steel nibs will eventually adapt to his/her style.

Now, the previous thread was slightly different: nibs do run-in and their writing characteristics usually improve with use. Again, this happens faster to heavy handed writers using soft gold nibs.

[Titivillus]

Actually, it's very simple. For the moment, forget steel nibs and stiff gold nibs.

Look at soft gold nibs with long tines. It takes but a few pages to set the nib to the writer's style. It takes some very, very tiny changes in nib geometry to change the way it writes! Anyone doing nib work can vouch for this!

So is my nib not good for you?

 

So you are saying that gold is so mallable that the slight pressure a person uses for writing several pages is enough to change the nib???? So why aren't more nibs sprung because if you happen to press down hard would not the nib conform to the position of the greatest deformation pressure? Or to make it simple: if someone on monday uses a light touch but on Wednesday used a heavy hand the pen will change so that it will be different when they pick it up on Friday and write with a light hand.

 

 

if the nib was used for years by a left handed person, it may not be good for a right handed person. But it will eventually adapt to that person's style. (we are not talking about the iridium, that it another story and changes take hundreds, possibly thousand of pages for a writer with a light touch).

 

 

No I think it is more of a person changing slightly their use of the pen than the stresses deforming the pen.

 

Steel nibs are more tolerant and have less character! Still, if the writer is very heavy handed, even steel nibs will eventually adapt to his/her style.

 

Wait a second now I have used dip pen nibs of steel and some have amazing character far surpassing gold nibs in many cases.

Edited March 19, 2006 by Tytyvyllus

[Elaine]

I know nothing of the subject, however I have a guess to one question. Kurt, you ask how all those vintage nibs can be good for their later users. If you think of it, most vintage nibs get a little "smoothing" don't they? I imagine that the change in a nib from writing would be fairly small, and smoothing it could bring it closer to your writing. Also, if a nib wears down from writing due to someone's writing style, perhaps there is enough tipping material so that when you write with a very different writing stlyle, you're wearing down the material from a different part of the nib.

[antoniosz]

OK. Hold it because there is way too much speculation here, and we are mixing MANY different topics into one.

 

1) Wear of tip material

 

Yes it is possible but it takes very long time. The evidence is obvious in some vintage pens that develop a smooth flat spot. Actually the nib feels very smooth if held at the right angle but a small deviation from it may orient the nib such that the rigde of the flat spot hits the page and it may feel a bit scratchy. It takes many hundreds if not thousands of pages of writing and a very consistant holding of the pen... If the user varies a little bit the holding position of the nib from time to time the transition away the "flat spot" is much more gradual and less easy to detect.

 

2) Can the tines "open" with time?

It is possible. All it needs is an occasional overload. There is a whole range of positions from the touching tines configuration to a fully sprung one. Contrary to what many people think it takes progressively more and more force to deform the nib. There is NO situation that it will take less force to deform further the nib .... So in that sense, and speaking rather roughly (because there are some peculiarities with cyclic deformation), the nib will conform to the occational overloading. A heavy pressing writer will eventually generate a higher overload than a lightly pressing writer. Obviously if these two start will the same nib they will end up with slightly different nibs. Kurt, I can not see why you have a problem with it.

 

3) Does the material change with time?

 

Well this is less trivial than one may think. On one hand gold and steel have a rather high annealing temperature. This means that evolution of the microstructure at room temperature will probably take a very long time to occur. We are talking centuries as the mobility of the atoms in these material at room temperature is very very slow.

 

However there is a possibility that a material changes under cycling loading. I am not only talking about fatigue cracking but I am talking about the possibility that a material become harder (or softer in some cases) after repeated stressing. For those interesting in this - try google scholar using the terms "cyclic softening" and "cyclic hardening" and you will find more info. I am not sure if this is true for gold or steel nibs at the levels of deformation that they see in the nibs. But I would not be surprised if it does.

 

4) Are the changes so drastic that the pen "matches" the writer and is so bad from anybody else?

 

Of course not, with few exceptions (see point (1) above). This is simply a marketing trick that some early FP makers used. But some others used its opposite. Look for example this add for a Parker Duofold. At some point it reads:

 

"And its point is not only smooth as a polished jewel, but no style of writing can distort it; hence, a pen you can lend without fear!"

 

Edited March 19, 2006 by antoniosz

[tryphon]

OK. Hold it because there is way too much speculation here, and we are mixing MANY different topics into one.

 

1) Wear of tip material

 

Yes it is possible but it takes very long time. The evidence is obvious in some vintage pens that develop a smooth flat spot. Actually the nib feels very smooth if held at the right angle but a small deviation from it may orient the nib such that the rigde of the flat spot hits the page and it may feel a bit scratchy. It takes many hundreds if not thousands of pages of writing and a very consistant holding of the pen... If the user varies a little bit the holding position of the nib from time to time the transition away the "flat spot" is much more gradual and less easy to detect.

 

2) Can the tines "open" with time?

It is possible. All it needs is an occasional overload. There is a whole range of positions from the touching tines configuration to a fully sprung one. Contrary to what many people think it takes progressively more and more force to deform the nib. There is NO situation that it will take less force to deform further the nib .... So in that sense, and speaking rather roughly (because there are some peculiarities with cyclic deformation), the nib will conform to the occational overloading. A heavy pressing writer will eventually generate a higher overload than a lightly pressing writer. Obviously if these two start will the same nib they will end up with slightly different nibs. Kurt, I can not see why you have a problem with it.

 

3) Does the material change with time?

 

Well this is less trivial than one may think. On one hand gold and steel have a rather high annealing temperature. This means that evolution of the microstructure at room temperature will probably take a very long time to occur. We are talking centuries as the mobility of the atoms in these material at room temperature is very very slow.

 

However there is a possibility that a material changes under cycling loading. I am not only talking about fatigue cracking but I am talking about the possibility that a material become harder (or softer in some cases) after repeated stressing. For those interesting in this - try google scholar using the terms "cyclic softening" and "cyclic hardening" and you will find more info. I am not sure if this is true for gold or steel nibs at the levels of deformation that they see in the nibs. But I would not be surprised if it does.

 

4) Are the changes so drastic that the pen "matches" the writer and is so bad from anybody else?

 

Of course not, with few exceptions (see point (1) above). This is simply a marketing trick that some early FP makers used. But some others used its opposite. Look for example this add for a Parker Duofold. At some point it reads:

 

"And its point is not only smooth as a polished jewel, but no style of writing can distort it; hence, a pen you can lend without fear!"

 

The Duofold quote was due to the fact that the pen employed a "Manifold" (i.e.: rigid) nib. As I mentioned in the original reply, flexible and soft gold nibs suffered most from being used by a person different from the habitual user.

I started collecting in 1968, when there were many old timers still working in pen stores and I can assure you that their experiences went beyond the marketing chatter of a few manufacturers.

We are talking about subtle, but noticeable changes in writing performance and feedback from nibs made of thin and flexible metal.

[tryphon]

No I think it is more of a person changing slightly their use of the pen than the stresses deforming the pen. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Answer:

This is the old Frank Dubiel position. Frank and I were good friends and I loved the guy, but he was not always right and was not very open to discussion with people with differing opinions. May he rest in peace, we all miss him.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Wait a second now I have used dip pen nibs of steel and some have amazing character far surpassing gold nibs in many cases.

 

Answer: well, maybe you did not read my post in its context: I am clearly referring to rigid fountain pen nibs. I started writing with dip pens when I was seven years old, and I agree with you, dip pen nibs can have lots of character. But in this case it's apples and oranges.

See my comments above

Edited March 20, 2006 by tryphon

[antoniosz]

 

.....

 

2) Can the tines "open" with time?

It is possible.  All it needs is an occasional overload.  There is a whole range of positions from the touching tines configuration to a fully sprung one.  Contrary to what many people think it takes progressively more and more force to deform the nib. There is NO situation that it will take less force to deform further the nib ....  So in that sense, and speaking rather roughly (because there are some peculiarities with cyclic deformation), the nib will conform to the occational overloading.  A heavy pressing writer will eventually generate a higher overload than a lightly pressing writer. Obviously if these two start will the same nib they will end up with slightly different nibs.  Kurt, I can not see why you have a problem with it.

 

....

 

4) Are the changes so drastic that the pen "matches" the writer and is so bad from anybody else?

 

...

The Duofold quote was due to the fact that the pen employed a "Manifold" (i.e.: rigid) nib. As I mentioned in the original reply, flexible and soft gold nibs suffered most from being used by a person different from the habitual user.

I started collecting in 1968, when there were many old timers still working in pen stores and I can assure you that their experiences went beyond the marketing chatter of a few manufacturers.

We are talking about subtle, but noticeable changes in writing performance and feedback from nibs made of thin and flexible metal.

I do not believe that we disagree. I was trying to point out that we are mixing up in the discussion many different types of "changes". In the majority of cases, there is very little change in the nib. This is why we keep buying second hand pens The extremes, when a change can be prohibitive for the next user, are: (a) a consistent and profic writer over a long period of time which might eventually after a long time create a flat spot, and ( very flexible nibs that can deform under relatively low forces. I hope it is more clear now to every one.

 

The very flexible nibs are indeed most sensitive and more easy to deform them.

Edited March 20, 2006 by antoniosz

[amin]

Sorry to be off topic, but do either of you know if the original Duofold nibs are much stiffer than the early arrow nibs that replaced them?

[Titivillus]

Answer:

This is the old Frank Dubiel position. Frank and I were good friends and I loved the guy, but he was not always right and was not very open to discussion with people with differing opinions.

 

As soon as someone says something different than you he's not right and not open to discussion.

 

 

 

For me this thread is over.

Edited March 20, 2006 by Tytyvyllus

[tryphon]

 

.....

 

2) Can the tines "open" with time?

It is possible.  All it needs is an occasional overload.  There is a whole range of positions from the touching tines configuration to a fully sprung one.  Contrary to what many people think it takes progressively more and more force to deform the nib. There is NO situation that it will take less force to deform further the nib ....  So in that sense, and speaking rather roughly (because there are some peculiarities with cyclic deformation), the nib will conform to the occational overloading.  A heavy pressing writer will eventually generate a higher overload than a lightly pressing writer. Obviously if these two start will the same nib they will end up with slightly different nibs.  Kurt, I can not see why you have a problem with it.

 

....

 

4) Are the changes so drastic that the pen "matches" the writer and is so bad from anybody else?

 

...

The Duofold quote was due to the fact that the pen employed a "Manifold" (i.e.: rigid) nib. As I mentioned in the original reply, flexible and soft gold nibs suffered most from being used by a person different from the habitual user.

I started collecting in 1968, when there were many old timers still working in pen stores and I can assure you that their experiences went beyond the marketing chatter of a few manufacturers.

We are talking about subtle, but noticeable changes in writing performance and feedback from nibs made of thin and flexible metal.

I do not believe that we disagree. I was trying to point out that we are mixing up in the discussion many different types of "changes". In the majority of cases, there is very little change in the nib. This is why we keep buying second hand pens The extremes, when a change can be prohibitive for the next user, are: (a) a consistent and profic writer over a long period of time which might eventually after a long time create a flat spot, and ( very flexible nibs that can deform under relatively low forces. I hope it is more clear now to every one.

 

The very flexible nibs are indeed most sensitive and more easy to deform them.

Antonios, I did not imply any disagreement.

I was pointing our that the Duofold was an early pen with manifold nibs, which were certainly more resistent to abuse than some of the very flexible nibs used by other penmakers like Waterman.

I think your comments and observations are absolutely correct.

[tryphon]

Answer:

This is the old Frank Dubiel position. Frank and I were good friends and I loved the guy, but he was not always right and was not very open to discussion with people with differing opinions.

 

As soon as someone says something different than you he's not right and not open to discussion.

 

 

For me this thread is over.

My, you are very sensitive. If I offended you, my sincere apologies.

[Titivillus]

Answer:

This is the old Frank Dubiel position. Frank and I were good friends and I loved the guy, but he was not always right and was not very open to discussion with people with differing opinions.

 

As soon as someone says something different than you he's not right and not open to discussion.

 

 

For me this thread is over.

My, you are very sensitive. If I offended you, my sincere apologies.

 

 

No I'm just confused as why you would post something like that in response to what I thought was a good discussion about whether pens 'mold' to a person's writing style or your writing style changes to fit a pen. It came out of left field and there just isn't anything I can say to defend my opinion from that.

 

 

I guess appology accepted,

 

Kurt H

Edited March 20, 2006 by Tytyvyllus

[tryphon]

Answer:

This is the old Frank Dubiel position. Frank and I were good friends and I loved the guy, but he was not always right and was not very open to discussion with people with differing opinions.

 

As soon as someone says something different than you he's not right and not open to discussion.

 

 

For me this thread is over.

My, you are very sensitive. If I offended you, my sincere apologies.

 

 

No I'm just confused as why you would post something like that in response to what I thought was a good discussion about whether pens 'mold' to a person's writing style or your writing style changes to fit a pen. It came out of left field and there just isn't anything I can say to defend my opinion from that.

 

 

I guess appology accepted,

 

Kurt H

I am sincere in my apology. I never meant to cause you any displeasure. I still don't know what upset you: my reference to Frank Dubiel? The fact that I said that he could be wrong?

I knew him as a friend. I respected his knowledge, he respected my opinion; in fact only days before his untimely death he asked me for advice on vintage Aurora 88 repairs. He was going to add that in the next edition of his repair book. The fact is, we could disagree and remain good friends.

I have many, many pens in a collection that I started 38 years ago. I have repaired many pens, I have tweaked nibs for many years (although I am not a nibmeister, by a long stretch). One thing I saw over the years is how little it takes to change the behavior of a nib. A minute adjustment, a whisper-light pass on smoothing film... and, yes, a few pages of writing can alter a nib geometry enough to change its behavior, especially its ink flow characteristics.

Hope to meet you at a pen show: I'll be glad to show you how this actually happens.

On being right: I am so often wrong and I hope I am ready to admit it when I am. On this, I am relying on 38 years of collecting and working with fountain pens.

Thanks and take care,

Giovanni

[Guest Denis Richard]

I have seen both tipping wear and nib geometry adaptation in regular writers.

 

The tipping wear on the pen I have used during college is so obvious, the flat spot so pronounced that I had to regrind it.

 

Nib geometry can change quickly with some 18k nibs. The fastest I have seen are 18k Pelikan nibs. What I have seen is a mix of tine alignement and how the nib seats on the feed. If you rotate your pen, these will change and can do so very rapidly.

Edited March 21, 2006 by Denis Richard

[Stylo]

I had somehow missed this one, but here is my cent and a ahalf:

 

1. Nib wear: my Paker 75 irridium tip has a big flat spot. It looks like half of the tip is gone I have had it since the early nineties (original owner).

 

2. I don't know all the ways that tine geometry can be altered, but I do believe nibs do get broken in. I believe both friction and flexing breaks in a tip in the sense of smoothing all the "rough edges", whether at the tip or on the surface where the tines contact each other. it is not a stretch to conclude that this break-in process will happen slightly differently depending on how the person writes.

 

3. I think it is Waterman that claims in the little booklet that comes with each pen that FP do in time conform to a persons writing style