FLEX NIBS

[antoniosz]

As some of you know, I am a flexoholic. Now that there is a more-than-just-a-rumor that Nathan Tardiff is coming up with a better than ever flex alloy, this topic it more than ever timely. So I open this topic to include all possible discussion about flex nibs. The good and the bad about them, how to recognize them, what pens have them etc.

 

To begin with several friends asked me how to identify a flex nib (e.g., on e-bay :blink: where you can not do the "nail test").

 

So tonight I have a photo that shows one way to find the extra flexxy one.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/azavalia/flex-vs-semiflex.jpg

(sorry for the distortion but I take these pictures with a loupe in front of my digital camera. The grid gives a good idea of dimensions).

 

There are two #2 Wahl nibs. The bottom one is a nice semiflex nib. The top one is marked FLEXIBLE and it really is. The only different is the longer tines The thickness of the nib is about 0.01" (~0.25 mm). The curvature of the nib is the same. I assume that the alloy is about the same (although a variation of composition is not out of the question). So the only difference is the tine length. Longer tine means larger deflection at lower writing force. The pen in this photo is as close to wet noodle as you will find them. In fact that much flex is difficult to control, and requires a lot of care when writing.

 

Of course an easy way to identify flex nibs is ... to read the writing on the nib. Well, when it comes to Wahl, this is true but for some other cases as in this Wearever Lady Fair, flex means a minimum opening under quite a force.

 

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/azavalia/lfw2.jpg

 

Maybe the son/daughter of the Wearever marketing people is now working for Levenger

[Elaine]

Wow, I didn't know that about Nathan. I bet it's going to be costly though. I'm also a fan of flex - even though some of my favorites have none. (P51, triumph nibs, VP)

 

Elaine

[antoniosz]

Elaine,

 

I am not sure if he is ready to produce but there was this cryptic note in acp-p few days ago:

 

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.co...2dca317453f9f82

 

which made me optimistic, as I had talked with him long time (before Noodler's)ago on the same subject.

 

I do not know how costly his nibs will be when they come out. But I am sure that it may not be as expensive as a flex triumph nib - which by the way actually exist (for $200-$400 ). Also note that he is talking about a 51 flex nib Good days are ahead for flexoholics

 

At the same time it has been always fun to search for vintage flex.

[Leslie J.]

Excellent advice Antonios. I've temporarily misplaced my WM 52 1/2 , but I want to check it out now. My Nakaya Koi has elongated tines like the flex nib, but I think the grind on it makes it behave in its own way.

 

My WM is flexy IMO, but it doesn't give forth a very thin line, as would be necessary for copperplate. It gives a lot of line variation, but not that the very fine line I'd like to see.

 

I hope you will give further "lessons" here. You may post to the Reviews and Articles Forum too. This is very interesting stuff.

 

Nathan is a mad scientist huh? That is great to know!

[Maja]

Great idea for a thread, Antonios!

I was looking at a very old Pentrace article on flex nibs (click here to see article).

The writer, Bob Helfrich, suggested in this article that, when comparing flexible nibs to rigid ones:

 

--the flex nib's tines "may be thinner and longer"

--the flex nib's breather hole "will be further from the tip"

--the flex nib's shoulders "will not be as blocky"

 

I know you've covered the first point (tine length), but have you also found the 2nd and 3rd points to be a couple of sure-fire ways to tell if a nib is flexible without actually trying it (ie. just by looking)?

[antoniosz]

FLEX NIBS - WHAT I LOOK FOR AFTER I GET A FLEX NIB.

 

With the exitement that a flex nib is in my hands I ink to "test" it. All flex nibs are not equal. Here, I will share my way of checking a flex nib.

 

I usually like to write down the word "Sheaffer" (even if the pen is not a sheaffer ).

 

Basically I look for 3 characteristics:

 

A ) long ascending lines need to be thin and clear. A fine line under no-pressure actually is a must for nice "copper-plate" like work. In fact if the thin line is thin enough then the think one does not need to be too thick to achieve contrast (so overflexing can be avoided)

B ) descending vertical thick lines show the thickness achieved by pressure

C ) "fast returns". Some flex nibs are not capable of "switching off" the ink when they transition from thick to thin. A clean "fast return" is a must for good visual result.

 

If you have any more suggestions please let me know.

 

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/azavalia/shfl3.jpg

 

By the way this was written by a sweet Sheaffer Balance shown below.

 

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/azavalia/shfl1.jpg

 

The nib is also shown here. It is not visually possible to verify that it is flex in advance. In this case my source told me that this is a flex nib.

So Maja regarding your previous post - it was a very nice article. 1st and 2nd points are identical. The 3rd not a necessary characteristic but it helps. For the nib below, the only characteristic that might give a hint is the angle of the tines is sharper than in regular balances. Other than length of tines the second most important characteristics for a flex nib is very small thickness...But this we can not see...

 

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/azavalia/shfl2.jpg

[Maja]

Wow, you did that with a vintage Balance! Mine have nail-like nibs for the most part, so thanks for giving me hope that flexy ones do exist!

 

Thank you also for posting a sample (your handwriting is beautiful) and also for answering my questions, Antonios.

[Keith with a capital K]

The flex nib on that particular Balance is worth as much as quite a few nice Balances as flexible Lifetime nibs are exceedingly hard to find.

 

Should anyone come across one my e-mail is....

 

[Gerry]

Since I don't think it has been mentioned yet, there is a great nib section on Richard Binder's site - and, of course some Flex info...

 

Have a look: http://www.richardspens.com/

 

Look in the Reference section for: Nibs III: Flex vs. Italic

 

Gerry

[antoniosz]

Yes, thanks Gerry! As always plenty of good information in Richards site:

 

Direct links:

 

http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref_info/nib_beyond.htm

 

and more importantly

 

http://www.richardspens.com/ref_info/nib_flex_italic.htm

[Keith with a capital K]

Antonios,

 

I have to say I really appreciate all the excellent information and excellent pictures you have been posting.

 

And while we're on the topic of flex...

 

I received a green 1940 DJ Vac speedline from a friend (for restoration) the other day and when I was checking the pen I was both delighted to see that it was equipped with a very flexible 2 tone Canadian nib and dismayed to realize that after the pen is restored it will be living somewhere else. (Nibs like this are just about always found on Canadian pens).

 

Aside from a small crack in the cap lip and a few little nicks in the plating the pen is perfect and although I believe that the pen is a slim Maxima I will have to confirm that with David Isaacson.

 

I will be posting some photos of this gorgeous pen later for everyone's enjoyment.

Edited December 18, 2004 by Keith with a capital K

[antoniosz]

The pleasure is mine, Keith. I like the "permanent" nature of this board and needless to say that the atmosphere is a bit better that the other site we all have liked :-)

 

Since you mentioned a flexy Vac. Here are some photos to one of these beauties.

From an older post on PT. I do not have time to discuss them since I am off to Greece tomorrow but I would like to in the near future. I understand that articles here can be edited later on. How do I do this?

 

In the mean time here is Ms. Flexy Vac

 

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/azavalia/1.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/azavalia/2.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/azavalia/3.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/azavalia/5.jpg

Edited February 10, 2007 by antoniosz

[Maja]

I found an interesting tidbit on the Nakaya Pen co. website about flexy nibs:

Nakaya nib info page

(the bit on nib flexibility is on the last 1/4 of this long page)

Edited January 2, 2005 by Maja

[antoniosz]

Yes, I have seen the Nakaya page. May I say, that some the content there is a bit confusing and perhaps incorrect (perhaps due to the translation?).

 

1. Material

 

Nakaya says:

The flexibility differs with the material such as gold or acid resistant stainless steel. 18k gold is the softest material and 14k is the next. Stainless steel is hard metal and because of its economical price it is used for less expensive products.

My opinion:

They use the word "soft" and this makes it unclear.

Stainless steel is much stiffer than 18K. So I agree. But, 18K is marginally stiffer than 14K. i.e., if 3 nibs have exactly the same dimensions, and we apply the same force, the 14K will "flex" just a tad more (5-10%) than 14K and both gold (18K and 14K) will flex much more than steel.

Stainless steel is stronger than 14K and 18K. 14K can be made stronger than 18K. I.e., if 3 nibs have exactly the same dimensions, it takes a larger force to get a "sprung nib" for the steel nib. A "proper" 14K nib will take a larger load than an 18K nib before it gets "sprung". This is what makes 14K better than 18K in flex nibs.

 

So when they say soft they mean weak. This confusion is mostly coming from the fact that people confuse the terms stiffness, strength, softness etc. Best is to use the term stiff (and its opposite: complient) and strong (and its opposite: weak)

* Stiffness is the amount of force to produce a give reversible deflection

* Strength is the amount of force to deform permanently a nib (to get a "sprung nib")

 

2. Thickness of the nib

Nakaya says:

The thickness of the ingot influences the flexibility of a nib. The thicker the ingot the harder is the nib. The thinner, the ingot, the softer the nib. Grading of the tip and tail also determines the flexibility of a nib.

My opinion:

I agree

 

3. Curve of a nib

Nakaya says:

A nib is arched. The deeper the arch,the harder is the nib. The shallower the arch the softer the nib. There are also triangular or pentagonal forms which is a little harder than curved ones.

My opinion:

This is "true" in the sense that a nib will feel less soft with a deeper arch, BUT a deeper arch will produce more opening of the tines. Richard Binder's often will curve the nib more to increase the flex of a pen.

The confusion comes from the fact that softness of a nib and "flex" (i.e. tine opening at a given force) are not the same. You can have a soft nib that does not produce any tine opening. So apparently the term "flex" is not correct :bonk:

 

4. Heart hole

Nakaya says:

Flexibility of a nib depends very much on the shape, size and the place of the heart hole. The wider the shape of the heart is, the more it lets the writing pressure go aside so the writing touch will be softer. If the hole is more round and smaller, the nib is harder.

My opinion:

The hole does affect some "things" (e.g., stress concentration). I am not sure how exactly it affects flex (I will figure it out soon )

 

5. Length of tines

Nakaya says:

The longer the tines, the softer the nib. Shorter tines result in a harder nib.

My opinion:

I agree.

 

If you read up to this point you are really flexoholic

[Maja]

I have read this far.....and I appreciate your taking the time to break things down, bit by bit, so that we can truly understand some of the concepts at work...Thanks, Antonios!

[TheNobleSavage]

Antonios! Thats great information. I often found it difficult to understand what "Flex" really is.

[corienb]

I've read the whole topic, but all that my mind keeps telling me is :

Tardif is making a new great flex alloy, equal to vintage flex or better .. !!

So.. any updates on that ?

[antoniosz]

Hi Corien,

 

I have tried to contact Nathan on this new alloy but I have not heard from him.

The only information that I have is from

 

1. this page (Nathan's) which I got from here.

 

2. and this pagewhich I got from this acpp thread.

 

It looks that he is fascinated with 51 - apparently people told him that 51 can not have flex by construction and as he usually likes this kind of challenges he is focusing on this.

 

As I said e-mails, did not work. Maybe I better seat down and write to him and send some kind of blanc check just to see what he has came up with.

[corienb]

Will look at the pages later, thanks for the links !!

 

I've got a package for Nathan ready here ( pen for adjustment, and a mold/ink sample ). I think I"ll toss in an extra note to ask about the flex ?

He doesn't know this is comeing his way, but it seems the fastest way to contact him ( it's one of his modified snorkels I'm sending for adjustment, seems only fair to send it to the maker - I'd like more flow ).

[Guest Denis Richard]

Corien,

 

may be you can encourage him to post the great info he puts on ACCP on FPN too.

 

Denis.