[woodwindmaster06]

I have been working out of the Spencerian Theory Book, I am wondering what times should you use the whole arm movements, is it just in forming capital letters?? or is it used elsewhere, and is it better form to remain your elbow up to finish the word that was started with the capital letter. Any advise on to the movements made would be of great help
Thanks
WWM

[woodwindmaster06]

Thanks, I will start implimenting this way of writing now, anybody else have any other expierences?

[wimg]

Hi WWM,

Having been tought cursive at primary school, I always write from the shoulder, IOW, with the whole arm, but I do move my upper arm at the elbow as well, for some of the finer movements, I noticed. Essentially, that is in order to be able to move the writing hand in the same position all the time across the paper while writing.

I touch the paper with my ring finger and pinky, while the pen is held between thumb and index finger, and supported by the middle finger. Depending on the height and size of the writing surace, the side of my hand (side of pinky and palm) may touch the writing surface as well, and drag across it while writing.

HTH, warm regards, Wim

[ElaineB]

I just saw this thread and your note about hand position, Denis. I have been looking around at some of the classic copperplate lessons at Zanerian.com, because I was puzzled about hand position and found fingers getting too tired too quickly.

It seems there many variations in hand/arm use among the penman at the turn of the 20th century. Here are some quotes from the different lessons:

Mr. Hovis
http://www.zanerian.com/Hovis1.gif
"The movement used is mostly finger, yet the wrist and forearm are used in conjunction with the finger movement."

Mr. Brown
http://www.zanerian....rownScInst1.gif
"Owing to the heavy shaded strokes and round turns of this style of writing it cannot be written with good results with any but the finger movement. Bend the fingers and thumb while the hand remains stationary, lifting the pen at the end of each shaded stroke."

Mr. Baird
http://www.zanerian....irdLessons.html
"The movement comes principally from the forearm and the wrist, giving the wrist a sort of rocking motion; the fingers are not used as much as might be expected. I would advise each one to lose no opportunity to watch some one write Roundhand, as you could then see the movement employed, and the work would be easier."

E.A. Lupfer
http://www.zanerian....pferLesson1.gif
"Position for script is similar to that taught for business writing. Sit well back from the desk, leaning forward from the hips with both elbows evenly on the desk."

All this variation does make sense, as everyone's hands, arms, body, desks, chairs, and pens are different. What works best for one person's musculature might not be appropriate for anothers.

I still don't know what works best for my own hands. I think part of the problem is that my pen (a 1930s Sheaffer) is flexy but not soft enough for what I want to do. I just won a 19th-century gold-nibbed dip pen for $9 on eBay last week, and I've been playing with that now, too. It takes a very, VERY light touch which is easier on my hands. But as a tool, it has different technical difficulties from fountain pens. Like -- how the heck do I load just the right amount of ink with each dip?? I'm constantly getting too much or too little ink.

Still lots of fun, though. I'm saving up for a true "wet noodle" vintage fountain pen, and hopefully it'll be easier on my hands.

ElaineB
(who sits with elbows on the table and uses a lot of finger movement, but makes sure to keep fingers as straight as possible -- no crooked fingers or distended joints.)

This post has been edited by ElaineB: 10 June 2005 - 04:20 PM

[Titivillus]

Going to second Elaine her. From what I can remember of references copperplate is by the fingers and italic uses the whole arm ( or suppose to!)
Kurt H

[ushat]

Amazing though it may seem, I've never noticed how I write until now. I'm an elbow down, fingers and wrist man, it seems. I cannot imagine writing on paper with a pen using my whole arm. A blackboard with chalk, yes.

I recently took an exam, for the first time in thirty years. I wrote about 3000 words and I had to stop a few times because it got quite painful. Given that I hadn't done so much writing since university days, that's probably not surprising. My writing muscles have atrophied!

[KCat]

ushat, on Jun 10 2005, 02:32 PM, said:

I recently took an exam, for the first time in thirty years.  I wrote about 3000 words and I had to stop a few times because it got quite painful.  Given that I hadn't done so much writing since university days, that's probably not surprising.  My writing muscles have atrophied!

I'm not so sure it has to do with weak muscles. But of course, you were there so you'll be able to determine that.

One exam in particular brought on days of pain for me. It was a 3-hour comparative physiology exam. I used mech. pencil back then for everything. By the end of the exam I was getting shooting pains from hand to shoulder. It hurt for days and tingled as well. Like the "funny bone" tingle only it was my entire arm and it radiated from my thumb. Interesting lesson in temporary nerve damage caused by an improper grip on the pencil and extreme stress. I probably gripped that pencil as if my life depended on it. well, I was pretty much a perfectionist back then so I probably did feel my life (or at least my GPA) depended on it.

I still have mild tingling in my thumb probably 4-5 days a week from my writing. So either there was lasting damage done or i'm still not quite gripping correctly when i'm writing quickly and under stress. or a bit of both. (it may be unrelated but this was when I started having autoimmune symptoms - during my last semesters in college (10 years ago.)

This post has been edited by KCat: 10 June 2005 - 09:08 PM

[southpaw]

Writing with the whole arm sounds totally awkward to me. I'll have to look into it further, though. I've always "anchored" with my elbow.

[KCat]

southpaw, on Jun 10 2005, 08:15 PM, said:

Writing with the whole arm sounds totally awkward to me. I'll have to look into it further, though. I've always "anchored" with my elbow.

hmm... well, it might be a considerably different issue for a southpaw. :(

Watching Antonios' video, I see he really uses a combination of movements, more finger-tip control here, less there. I'm not sure we can write solely with arm movement. I'd like to see some of the pros at work to figure it out. The only thing I've seen was a bit from the documentary on the Illuminated Bible. In that, it was apparent that the Master Calligrapher was using both arm, hand and fingers in an overall smooth, coordinated motion.

[antoniosz]

KCat, I think it is not a good idea me as a reference on this.
I never bothered to check exact details of my "technique" - and I was never trained formally or attempted to follow a formalism.
I am sure that a properly trained old timer will find tons of errors in my posture/holding etc. - and they may be right. In fact in the video I do see some more difficulty when (unconciously) switch to more finger control with the smaller letters.

This post has been edited by antoniosz: 11 June 2005 - 02:52 AM

[Titivillus]

southpaw, on Jun 10 2005, 07:15 PM, said:

Writing with the whole arm sounds totally awkward to me. I'll have to look into it further, though. I've always "anchored" with my elbow.

I have tried it and it is something that you have to consciously get use to. But the theory is sound as the muscles that you use for finger writing are smaller and faster to tire while if you use all of the arm muscles you are working with larger muscle groups. It might also allow greater flow. I notice that the smaller I write the more I use my finger while if I use my 1/2" poster nib the whole arm gets involved.



Kurt H

[paolimd]

Tytyvyllus, on Jun 11 2005, 04:34 AM, said:

southpaw, on Jun 10 2005, 07:15 PM, said:

Writing with the whole arm sounds totally awkward to me.  I'll have to look into it further, though.  I've always "anchored" with my elbow.

I have tried it and it is something that you have to consciously get use to. But the theory is sound as the muscles that you use for finger writing are smaller and faster to tire while if you use all of the arm muscles you are working with larger muscle groups. It might also allow greater flow. I notice that the smaller I write the more I use my finger while if I use my 1/2" poster nib the whole arm gets involved.



Kurt H

[QUOTE]

All of these replies seem sound to me!

I'm a Palmer student (we were taught this Method in grade school, though I didn't know it then). A.N. Palmer developed his method while working for a railroad company - so the story goes. He noticed that most of the employees were elderly folks, and they would write with their foreams, so as not to get tired finger muscles (typewriters were not that well developed yet, if at all.)

As for myself, I've always used the arm movement, yet was not aware of it. I'm a Family Physician, and for the last 27 years I've found myself writing very fast, almost to a scribble. Whole arm movement really made it possible to write without tiring! For the past 4 or 5 years, however, I've tried to get back to Palmer's, since I want to make my cursive legible also.

It's somewhat difficult, since I first have to undo so many years of bad writing habits, and then go on to learn new ones. But, painstaking practice has produced some good results. I have a long way to go yet, but it's a stress releiver to practice my calligraphy excercises in the evenings. It's worthwhile.

Good luck!

[wimg]

Ok, this is just my view on it, of course, so please take it for what it's worth :D.

At primary school we were taught to write with a dip pen first (from the age of 6 or 7), until towards the end of fifth grade (10-11 years of age) you were allowed to start using a fountain pen.

We were all told to use our arms, for the standard cursive type script which was used all over the Netherlands in those days. Obviously, for the minor movements you do have to use your fingers and hands, but writing does seem to come naturally, for me at least, from the shoulder and whole arm. And yes, I do tend to rest my elbow, lower arm or side of my hand on the paper or desk I am writing on. Even so, all major movements are made with the arm as a whole, which means that lower arm and hand move more or less parallel to the direction of writing.

BTW, I am right handed underwriter, which may make a difference as well, of course.

Oh, another thing: since I started using a fountain pen again for real, two years ago, my RSI problems have virtually disappeared. And I still use mouse and keyboard, be it slightly less...

HTH, warm regards, Wim

[zizoudinho]

[quote name='paolimd' date='Jun 11 2005, 09:50 AM']

Tytyvyllus, on Jun 11 2005, 04:34 AM, said:

southpaw, on Jun 10 2005, 07:15 PM, said:

Writing with the whole arm sounds totally awkward to me. I'll have to look into it further, though. I've always "anchored" with my elbow.

I have tried it and it is something that you have to consciously get use to. But the theory is sound as the muscles that you use for finger writing are smaller and faster to tire while if you use all of the arm muscles you are working with larger muscle groups. It might also allow greater flow. I notice that the smaller I write the more I use my finger while if I use my 1/2" poster nib the whole arm gets involved.



Kurt H

Quote

All of these replies seem sound to me!

I'm a Palmer student (we were taught this Method in grade school, though I didn't know it then). A.N. Palmer developed his method while working for a railroad company - so the story goes. He noticed that most of the employees were elderly folks, and they would write with their foreams, so as not to get tired finger muscles (typewriters were not that well developed yet, if at all.)

As for myself, I've always used the arm movement, yet was not aware of it. I'm a Family Physician, and for the last 27 years I've found myself writing very fast, almost to a scribble. Whole arm movement really made it possible to write without tiring! For the past 4 or 5 years, however, I've tried to get back to Palmer's, since I want to make my cursive legible also.

It's somewhat difficult, since I first have to undo so many years of bad writing habits, and then go on to learn new ones. But, painstaking practice has produced some good results. I have a long way to go yet, but it's a stress releiver to practice my calligraphy excercises in the evenings. It's worthwhile.

Good luck!

interesting...a Palmerian in the flesh :)

I want to know more about this method. What I know is only through net research and books. Could you post a pic/scan of your hand position while writing or could you describe the hand position for us. Do you still maintain the position you were taught at school or have you adapted it?


feedback much appreciated.

regards.