What's the best Nib material

[peter_UK]

Sorry to repeat one of my earlier points but steel (stainless that is) should be a better carrier for the nib tip than a gold alloy. If gold alloy is better someone had better tell Tiger Woods. Few people have more to gain over the right flexibility and feel of the instrument tip then professional golfers. (Cost not an issue with million dollar+ prizes.)

 

Corrosion was a problem - I am not a metallurgist but modern stainless steel seems very corrosion resistent to me. In my limited experience you are likely to see more pitting on the body of gold pens than those made of stainless steel.

 

As this is getting away from cheap versus expensive pens (partly my fault) would a separate discussion on nib materials be worthwhile - with some expert views welcome?

 

Peter

[thewolfgang]

I strongly second the suggestion for a new discussion of nib materials !!!

[Lloyd]

modern stainless steel seems very corrosion resistent to me.

Actually, typical "stainless steel" knives in your kitchen are NOT stainless but stain/rust resistant; as soon as you include iron into the alloy there is a capability of corrosion.

[antoniosz]

Corrosion was a problem - I am not a metallurgist but modern stainless steel seems very corrosion resistent to me.  In my limited experience you are likely to see more pitting on the body of gold pens than those made of stainless steel.

No. Gold (especially the higher Ks) is much less prone to corrosion than stainless steel. Couple of years ago I wrote this article that discusses some of these issues.

 

I would like to add that it is possible to make nibs from many materials, starting from feathers to plastics, stainless steel, titanium, gold to space alloys. The bottom line is that today the key criterion of materials selection for FP nibs is neither performance nor durability but rather cost and aesthetics/perception.

[Glenn-SC]

Sorry to repeat one of my earlier points but steel (stainless that is) should be a better carrier for the nib tip than a gold alloy.  If gold alloy is better someone had better tell Tiger Woods.  Few people have more to gain over the right flexibility and feel of the instrument tip then professional golfers.

"Stainless steel" is really "stain resistant". Stainless steel will corrode and oxidize.

 

Golf clubs are made for strength, flexibility and elasticity. Unless you plan to repeatedly stab something with your pen, the same amount of each is no as important with nibs. (As an aside, I doubt many professional gold clubs shafts are made of steel. I would think graphite fabric or some other such is the thing these days for golf clubs.)

 

I would think that a combination of modulus of elasticity of the metal alloy used and the design of the nib (thickness, width and shape) has the most effect on nib "feel".

 

I have no idea what metal or alloy or coating is best for wicking the ink from the feed to the paper.

Edited May 20, 2006 by Glenn-SC

[TheNobleSavage]

Out of all the different nibs that I have, and all the gold, steel and titanium nibs on my pens, I have to say that 14kt feels the best.

 

I have several 21kt gold nibs

Numerous 18kt gold nibs

Countless 14kt gold nibs

a few 10kt gold nibs

a few Titanium

and several Steel

 

If I were to be blind folded and given several of my pens to write with, I would say that the 14kt gold nibs are usually the ones I would choose. Still it is a loaded question because it still depends on the thickness of the nib its self. Sailor 21kt gold has some of the highest gold content in regards to nibs but they are thick and the ones I have translates to stiff. Maybe the 21kt sailor nibs need more material to reinforce the softer nibs. But it seems that I chose the Visconti 14kt nibs on the Van Gogh's, Lamy, and some of my Sheaffers and Earlier Pelikan pens. Not to say that the 18kt or 21 kt are not to my liking BUT the 14kt nibs that I picked out are very natural feeling with the nibs being a bit thinner than some of the others in my collection.

 

Now are these the best material for a nib to be made with?, For me only but not for everyone else. To say that the reason why i chose and lean towards the gold nibs are because they are gold, is really not that true at all!!! The Lamy That I picked out is actually the Safari and the Pelikan is my M75 Go along with a few of my 14kt 400nn. So it is all on a personal level. I prefer the older 14kt gold nib on my 149 rather than the modern 18kt gold nibs ont he 149. There are many other pens where I prefer a lower gold content.

 

As what Antonio says, I agree in part but a lot of the pens made with cheaper materials can be used successfully but here are the major issues. Do they really put the time, effort and research into, the pens balance, weight and nib performance? That remains to be seen. If Pelikan, Lamy, Bexley, Stipula and the list goes on and on, if they were to try alternate materials for nib creations, such as different metals other than Steel, Gold and Titanium. If they are able to keep the integrity of the rest of the pen, have a good balance, filling methods and a nib that would rival that of the commonly used materia along with being extremely durable and not having to throw it awayl, I would be willing to try it out. Unfortunatly, there is very little choice and as of right now, I have to say that Gold and Steel are the best materials to us. And when I say that, I have to take into account the rest of the pen, for me a feather or dip pen is not comfortable at all for me to use at all.

 

So As of now, I still have to choose Gold and some steel nibs as the material of choice!! FOR ME!!!!!

 

TNS

[tonyv]

Is copper a suitable nib material? I read that the Duke Mini-Torpedo has a copper nib, but i can't remember if it's solid or plated. Does anyone have any experience with copper nibs?

[Lloyd]

We need to get a Richard Binder gold and a Richard Binder steel nib and compare.

[Half Sigma]

There are no nibs made out of "gold," they are made out of gold alloys.

 

This is an important distinction, because if the "gold" nib feels so great it may have more to do with whatever metals the gold is alloyed with.

 

If a pen skips, it has nothing to do with the metal (unless it's corroded) and everything to do with the feeder system.

 

If the pen isn't a smooth writer, it's a combination of the ink flow (feeder system) and the quality of the tip. Once again, this has nothing to do with the metal used for the non-tip part of the nib.

 

So the only issue is whether a non-stiff nib is better, and if that's the case, what's the best alloy with which to make a non-stiff nib?

 

I have to admit that I'm not an expert on these matters, so apologies in advance if I explained it wrong.

[Glenn-SC]

If a pen skips, it has nothing to do with the metal (unless it's corroded) and everything to do with the feeder system.

 

If the pen isn't a smooth writer, it's a combination of the ink flow (feeder system) and the quality of the tip. Once again, this has nothing to do with the metal used for the non-tip part of the nib.

Unless of course you consider flexible nibs that write varying width lines with varied pressure.

 

Then the smoothness and ink flow are equally dependent on the flexibility of the nib (which includes design and materials)

 

And unless a nib is as stiff as a nail (and I have some that are) every nib will have some flex and hence the nib material will effect smoothness and ink flow.

[TheNobleSavage]

There are no nibs made out of "gold," they are made out of gold alloys.

 

I think that is a statement that is rather uhh, how can we say, splitting hairs. It is like saying tipping material is iridium. Iridium is not used anymore, but it is a general term that is thrown out there. It simplifies the term. I dont think that there is enough room on a nib to print "iridium, osmium and ruthenium point Germany"

It is Gold alloy or not, it is still made out of gold but not pure 100% gold, now depending on the gold content vs alloys used will give a purity rating.

 

 

If the pen isn't a smooth writer, it's a combination of the ink flow (feeder system) and the quality of the tip. Once again, this has nothing to do with the metal used for the non-tip part of the nib.

 

If the pen skips, it can have something to do with the material if, the tines are pinched too close together, tipping material has a burr or is worn down. As for corrosion, you really dont have to worry about that too much with gold nibs. As for the writing qualities of pens, I believe the nib material has something to do with how the pen feels while writing. Just as Glenn stated about Flexible nibs. The nib material, width, thickness, composition, smooth tipping material and the users pressure has everything to do with how a pen writies.

 

 

So the only issue is whether a non-stiff nib is better, and if that's the case, what's the best alloy with which to make a non-stiff nib?

 

Only the user can determine if a nib is better or not. There are so many variables as to what a good or better nib is. If you are looking for a flex or semi flax nib, you not only have to look at the materials but also the thickness of the nib. Flexible nibs will generally be thinner than stiff nibs. I am sure that the composition of the metal is also important. You brought up the fact in the other thread that if a nib was 100% gold, it would flop over. I think the same applies. I would say a steel or 14kt nib that is being customized to a flexible nib would be better than using an 18 or 21kt gold nib. If I remember correctly, it was either Mottishaw or Binder but one of them will not customize 18kt nibs into an extra flexible. I think it is a stability issue.

 

 

As for copper, I dont think copper its self would be a great material. I am sure Antonio can go more into depth than I ever can. I know that copper oxidizes so the copper on that Duke pen (which I bought one for the wife) could be copper plated with something mixed in there to prevent oxidation.

 

TNS

Edited May 21, 2006 by The Noble Savage

[Titivillus]

We need to get a Richard Binder gold and a Richard Binder steel nib and compare.

Richard doesn't make nibs he only modifies existing ones. Better to see if you can get a Bock steel and gold nib.

 

 

 

I think as well we all have overlooked the possibility that many steel nibs are not tipped with anything but just folded tips.

 

 

 

K

[Gerry]

We need to get a Richard Binder gold and a Richard Binder steel nib and compare.

You might be interested in this from John Mottishaw... http://www.nibs.com/WhyUseGoldNibs.htm

or this one - by Richard Binder... http://www.richardspens.com/?page=ref_info/nib_steel.htm

 

 

Gerry

 

[Edit: to add the Binder reference...]

Edited May 21, 2006 by Gerry

[Half Sigma]

Figuring out the best pen is too complicated, I'm going to buy a notebook computer instead.

[RLTodd]

Figuring out the best pen is too complicated, I'm going to buy a notebook computer instead.

Yes, but then you will have to figure out the BEST notebook computer. :roflmho:

[peter_UK]

I think you are all correct because there are two ways of looking at this question -

What is technically the best material for nib manufacture?

What do I believe is the best material?

The answers can be different and this will help explain why (to me at least).

 

Researchers put tasteless green dye in bread. People that ate the bread did not like the taste. Champagne in a crystal cut-glass glass will taste better than in a cheap cracked cup. Our perceptions are based upon our beliefs. We will notice what we do not like in the taste of the green bread and cup champagne rather than what we do like.

Sayings such as “we find what we look for” and “self-fulfilling prophecy” are really relevant.

 

If you believe that that gold nibs are best, then for you, they really will be. Which political party do you support, what car do you drive, what is the best pen? Wouldn’t life be boring if we all had identical thoughts.

 

Many thanks for your comments – if price wasn’t much of an issue I would choose gold. The feel may or may not be much different (you decide) but the feeling certainly is!

 

Peter

[Half Sigma]

A plastic cup really does feel different than a champagne flute. Green bread does look different than normal colored bread.

 

But no one can tell the difference between a pen with a gold plated steel nib and one with a solid gold alloy nib.

[marklavar]

Sorry to repeat one of my earlier points but steel (stainless that is) should be a better carrier for the nib tip than a gold alloy. If gold alloy is better someone had better tell Tiger Woods. Few people have more to gain over the right flexibility and feel of the instrument tip then professional golfers. (Cost not an issue with million dollar+ prizes.)

 

Corrosion was a problem - I am not a metallurgist but modern stainless steel seems very corrosion resistent to me. In my limited experience you are likely to see more pitting on the body of gold pens than those made of stainless steel.

 

As this is getting away from cheap versus expensive pens (partly my fault) would a separate discussion on nib materials be worthwhile - with some expert views welcome?

 

Peter

My understanding is that nib tips are generally made of iridium - regardless of the metal content of the nib itself.

 

All I can say is that from my own experience, 18k gold nibs have been far better than any other metal combination. I've often found steel nibs to be scratchy.

[JRodriguez]

The best nib material, in my humble opinion, is that on the pen that works best for you.

[Noh]

Being that I'm new to the whole fountain pen thing (and this board), I can't really speak with any sort of authority about nibs. I am, however, a machinist and I happen to know a thing or two about metals.

 

First of all, all metals corrode, even gold. It's just how the universe works. Gold does tend to corrode a whole lot slower than many other metals though.

 

Stainless steel and corrosion-resistant steel are the same thing. The same way you add a certain percentage of carbon to iron to get steel, you add a certain percentage of chromium to steel to get stainless. The chromium at the surface that gets exposed to the air forms an invisible layer of chromium oxide which is too thin to be visible, but protects the steel and keeps it from (or at least dramatically slows the process of) oxidizing, or otherwise corroding. A dramatic example of this would be the green layer that forms on copper in places like the Statue of Liberty, and the copper roofing in old cities like Philadelphia and Boston. The outer layer of corrosion actually protects the underlying copper, and consequently many of those copper roofs are well over one hundred years old.

 

In stainless steel you're just substituting the layer of chromium oxide (which is so small as to be basically insignificant) for the layer of iron oxide which would normally form (and be very, very annoying on a pen nib).

 

Theoretically, since the sort of gold alloy that would most likely be used for something like a pen nib would be a combination of gold and copper, or gold, copper and tin (brass/bronze); stainless steel should be the more durable of the two. But because stainless tends to be much softer than regular steel due to it's chromium content, any practical difference in wear may actually work out to be not very noticeable in the long run.

 

This is pretty generalized, there are tons of variables, and about a million things that can effect the hardness and durability of the alloys, and it's all pretty esoteric and boring. Basically what it all boils down to is the quality of the manufacturing, the quality of the raw materials used in that manufacturing, and ultimately to what you just generally prefer in a nib. But from a strictly metallurgical point of view, the best options for low corrosion/high durability wouldn't be gold or stainless at all, but rather something like iridium, platinum, or titanium that are as (or more) corrosion resistant as stainless, but are generally much harder metals. However, I imagine there is something of a trade off as a softer metal would probably give the smoother writing experience even if it does wear out faster.

 

 

Wow... That turned out to be much longer than I'd planned. I hope somebody finds all that helpful.