Old style Pelikan M800 with the extra fine and extra flexible nib

[Zed]

So here I go with the promised – among others to the flexible nib connoisseur Antoniosz - review of the old style Pelikan M800 with the extra-fine and extra-flexible nib customisation by John Mottishaw.

 

Just as Antoniosz, I love to write with flexible nibs and therefore lean towards vintage pens. Besides, having superior nibs they – especially the senior sized pens from the late 1930s by Sheaffers, Wahl-Eversharps, Parkers, and Watermans – fulfil my idea of a perfect fountain pen the best. These pens are well sized and balanced. They already have reliable enough feeds and what is more, they often have ink-views so I am not left in the dark as to how much ink there is left in them...

 

Nevertheless, about a year ago I got possessed by the idea of trying out some contemporary fountain pens. I wanted to see how they compare to the old ones and what the rage is about. I therefore got myself – to my wife’s dismay – some Sailors, Auroras, and Pelikans. All of these pens turned out to be beautiful and well made writing implement. But alas, due to their stiff nibs they soon started to lose ground to my vintage pens. I therefore past the Sailors onto my wife and a friend, sold the Auroras, and sent my Pelikan M605 to Richard Binder for an extra-fine and extra-flexible nib customisation and my Pelikan M800 with 14k nib to John Mottishaw for the same treatment. I wanted to see whether I could learn to like the modern pens somewhat more with nibs that would be more to my liking…

 

Now, I guess many people would like me to do a double review of both pens with the customisation, but as I got my nib from Richard much earlier and sprung it in no time while trying out its capabilities I cannot serve here. All that I will say is that the nibs are incomparable. The flex of the M600 nib is not very appealing. The line variation of the nib is rather limited, and what is even worse, the nib lacks springiness - the very essential feature of a good flexible nib. The M800 nib on the other hand is capable of very appealing line variation and also its springiness is pretty good as this image shows.

 

 

Nevertheless the nib in action feels different to typical vintage flexible and even extra flexible nibs. This is because vintage flexible nibs’ tines tend to open by bending just below the breather hole rather than at their very tips – as does the M800 nib. This latter way of opening up is more typical for ultra flexible nibs with very long tines that I have encountered on some Watermans, Wahl-Eversharps and Moors.

 

It would certainly be exaggeration to call the M800 nib ultra flexible in terms of its softness. It is almost there but not quite. This is not a bad thing because the nib is capable of being a calligraphy tool as well as a pleasant writer. If it was not for the heaviness of the pen as whole I would probably adopt it as my correspondence writer – the nib is that good.

 

 

 

Of course the nib is slightly toothy being this fine and flexible – even John Mottishaw cannot do miracles – but the tooth is of a pleasant kind. It stops me from writing too quickly and thus unreadably... Also the inflow is just fine – not too wet and yet never skipping even when I practice bold copperplate. How John managed to achieve this is beyond me.

 

 

All this said, I nevertheless cannot see myself using the pen much even with this nib. The M800 is a beautiful, well made pen but alas I find it too heavy, misbalanced and in consequence too big for my hand. I really do not understand why Pelikan used different material for the filling mechanism of the M800 than it did in M600. But I guess this is point of dispute and many people on this forum will swear by the feel and size of the M800... Those of you who do should definitely try to get hold of one of these old style M800’s with 14k nibs and ask John to customise it to your liking. I am pretty sure you will not regret the investment – it really is “in many ways the ideal nib for customization” as John claims on his web page http://www.nibs.com/PelikanNibsAvailableForCusto.htm. What else is there to add?

 

Regards Zed

 

P.S. Those of you who are of less patient nature can watch the “for sale” forum for this particular pen will most likely appear there in a couple of days.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Zed

[Escribiente]

Zed, This is an excellent review, and fantastic handwriting. Have you had a chance to try the Pilot 742 or 743 with the FA nib? If so, how would you compare it to the Pel 800 extra fine, extra flexible?

[Zed]

Hi Escribiente,

 

thanks for the feedback - although I am more than unhappy with the writing sample and strongly consider posting a new one with less stiff writing - perhaps I shouldn't have had the two pints prior to writing the sample...

 

Anyway to answer your question: I have head about the pens and I almost went for them, but I somehow cannot get over the filling system. I think that pens for so much money should have more sophisticated filling systems that can keep more ink. But what I have heard about the nibs their flex seems far more rigid than that of the M800. Possibly because Pilot is afraid of having too many complains from people unknowledgeable about the limits of flexible nibs who would sprung or bend them on rough paper in no time...

 

Regards, Zed

[Escribiente]

Zed, I understand your reluctance to use cc. I'm in the same camp. But the Pilot converters are a whole different category. They have much more capacity than the average converter, they have a sophisticated vacuum filling mechanism, and their engineers had included an inner rod that prevents superficial tension from fighting capillarity, ensuring constant ink flow. Checked them out, whenever you have a chance.

[soapytwist]

Normally I'm envious of some of the pens that are reviewed, but I'm more envious of the handwriting than the pen here! I think we should start a handwriting review forum...

[gyasko]

I have the same sort of nib, that is, a 14k xf customised by John M. for flex. I have to say that i preferred my Pilot 742FA -- even with the feed & flow issues -- as well as my vintage flex nibs. The Pelikan seems a bit delicate, and it's not as smooth as most of my vintage flex nibs. I think i've used mine more than you did; the size of the 800 doesn't really bother me.

[drifting]

Excellent review, Zed!

 

I'm one of those who really likes the feel of the M800. I've got a couple modern M805s with the 18k nib, so I have no real desire to buy an old M800, but I've been keeping an eye out for a 14k nib unit with just this customization in mind. I got excited a few months ago when I saw that Martini Pens still listed the 14k nibs in their NOS nib section, but sadly, they're sold out and Regina doesn't think she'll see any again.

 

I'm sure your pen will be snapped up when it hits the Marketplace!

 

I think we should start a handwriting review forum...

Beyond the Penmanship forum, you mean?

 

Ryan.

 

[bdngrd]

Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed review! Seriously, you have impressive handwriting. I really enjoyed it.

[Zed]

The Pelikan seems a bit delicate, and it's not as smooth as most of my vintage flex nibs.

 

Yes, I quite agree with your description that the nib is delicate and not as smooth as most vintage flex nibs. But I believe - as I have pointed out in my review - this is because the nib is customized to be as flexible and as fine as possible so as to keep calligraphers rather than casual users happy. I have had the pleasure of writing with some very old nibs that were as fine and as flexible and they were just as delicate and toothy - but at the same time they seemed to produce fabulous copperplate script that I had not believed I was capable of. The nibs felt as if they were passing on some heritage of penmanship onto my hand...

 

Anyway, I think that if you asked John to customize your M800 nib so that it had flex and fines most pleasant for everyday use he would make you a nib that would be just as good or better than the Pilot one. But than I guess you - just as I did - wanted to try out the utmost in terms of flex and fines the M800 nib is capable of...

 

Regards, Zed

[gyasko]

The Pelikan seems a bit delicate, and it's not as smooth as most of my vintage flex nibs.

 

Anyway, I think that if you asked John to customize your M800 nib so that it had flex and fines most pleasant for everyday use he would make you a nib that would be just as good or better than the Pilot one. But than I guess you - just as I did - wanted to try out the utmost in terms of flex and fines the M800 nib is capable of...

 

I think it might have been the size of the tip. I should have gone with an F. It's reasonably smooth for the size of the tip (tiny), in fact, it's much better than some of my vintage Sheaffer microtips, which are just horrid. Writing with one of those recalls the teeth of that machine in Kafka's "In der Strafkolonie". I discovered that if i listened to music on headphones while writing that i would like the Pelikan nib better. The sound bugged me, and that's at least part of it with the Sheaffers, too.

 

And my flex 14k xf was supposed to be an everyday writer sort of a pen. The folks at nibs.com said that flexibility would exact a certain price in smoothness because paper would drag on the rougher inner surfaces of the nib slit when flexed. That's a tradeoff that i accepted. But then i wonder why the Pilot or my old Wahls are so smooth. The Wahls might have been smoothened by years of use, but not the Pilot, which makes me think that it's something about how the nib was made.

[Zed]

But then i wonder why the Pilot or my old Wahls are so smooth. The Wahls might have been smoothened by years of use, but not the Pilot, which makes me think that it's something about how the nib was made.

 

I have been wondering about this point too. Perhaps Pelikan uses harder tipping material than some of the vintage manufactures did and possibly also Pilot does. I might be utterly wrong about this but then perhaps I am not... I have read number of discussions about the changing nature of the tipping material manufactures use and the advantages and disadvantages that go with it. See for example the following article on John Mottishaw's page http://www.nibs.com/article5.html.

 

Regards, Zed

[Bentley]

Excellent Review Zed. I enjoyed reading it very much.

 

Your Copperplate penmanship is outstanding. I have been thinking about picking up a pen with a superflexible nib and trying to learn to write like you do.

 

I am wondering, though, how you grip the pen to get a broad line on the downstrokes. As a right-handed writer, the way I would normally hold a fountain pen would place the nib at a 45 degree to the page which would not allow the tines of a flexible nib pen to spread out properly on my downstroke.

 

I have watched some expert penmen on Youtube producing beautiful work like yours but I can't tell from the video how they are actually holding the pen and positioning their arm, wrist, or writing pad.

 

I have heard that as a right-handed writer, I would need to adjust my grip and arm position to make a flex nib work for me. I have thus been experimenting with this with my regular fountain pen (a Pelikan M600) and find that I have to contort my wrist and pen grip into strange and torturous positions to get the nib positioned properly, thereby rendering my handwriting almost unreadable.

 

Can you provide any insight or advice regarding this issue of a proper hand grip/arm position/paper alignment for a flex nib pen if I want to produce Copperplate or Spencerian style writing? I am thinking about buying a pen with a flexible nib (maybe even the one you are thinking of selling) but I don't want to invest money in an expensive pen/nib only to find myself unable to use it.

 

Thanks

[s_t_e_v_e]

WOW!!! :notworthy1: :notworthy1:

 

Splendid review of a beautiful pen and nib.... Thanks Zed.

I never felt like having a pen with EF flex nib but.... yeah it does do great things..... will try to get hold of at least one flex nib to see if it suits me.

[Zed]

Can you provide any insight or advice regarding this issue of a proper hand grip/arm position/paper alignment for a flex nib pen if I want to produce Copperplate or Spencerian style writing?

 

Thanks for the kind words... My own grip is far from perfect, but I do try to mach the following instructions like those given by one of the most spectacular calligraphers who happens to be also FPN member 'caliken' - see the following page of his webside http://www.caliken.co.uk/?cat=7 where he summarizes his instructions.

 

As to my experience: I would first advice you to learn to write - that is to form copperplate script with an ordinary not oversharp pencil of B or 2B grade. Because such pencil is soft it allows for a nice line variation and allows an untrained hand to get used to pressing and de-pressing when you should. Also because of the nature of the tip it is very forgiving if you hold your pen in an awkward angle and allows you to slowly correct it.

 

I hope this will be of some help, Zed

[Bentley]

Can you provide any insight or advice regarding this issue of a proper hand grip/arm position/paper alignment for a flex nib pen if I want to produce Copperplate or Spencerian style writing?

 

Thanks for the kind words... My own grip is far from perfect, but I do try to mach the following instructions like those given by one of the most spectacular calligraphers who happens to be also FPN member 'caliken' - see the following page of his webside http://www.caliken.co.uk/?cat=7 where he summarizes his instructions.

 

As to my experience: I would first advice you to learn to write - that is to form copperplate script with an ordinary not oversharp pencil of B or 2B grade. Because such pencil is soft it allows for a nice line variation and allows an untrained hand to get used to pressing and de-pressing when you should. Also because of the nature of the tip it is very forgiving if you hold your pen in an awkward angle and allows you to slowly correct it.

 

I hope this will be of some help, Zed

 

 

Thanks Zed. I checked out the site you recommended and it was just what I was looking for. One day (I hope) I'll be able to produce writing that resembles what you can do.

 

Thanks again,

 

Bentley

[georges zaslavsky]

the old generation m800 was the best.

[diplomat]

Super review, thanks.

I share your joy: I have a black old style M800 Peli with a 14kt nib in fine size. I agree it's a super flexy joy.

 

Beautiful pen, excellent nib.

 

Cheers,

[breaker]

nice review

[mori45]

Great review. Your handwriting is excellent--what ink did you use?

[handwriter]

Great review. Your handwriting is excellent--what ink did you use?

 

Is said in the handwritten sample: Diamine Florida Blue.

Thanks for resurrecting this old thread, haven't seen this review, great handwriting and great nib!