4 Noodler's Blacks

[Viseguy]

I was seeing some green tinges in my Noodler's Old Manhattan, so I decided to do "paper towel chromatography" on the four Noodler's blacks that I have. Sounds scientific; isn't (not in my hands, anyway). But interesting (at least to me). What do you think?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2008 by Viseguy

[ethernautrix]

Wow.

 

Another friend on these boards, Rapt, kept saying "Heart of Darkness, Heart of Darkness," and I kept saying, "But Old Manhattan Black!"

 

Am now looking at Heart of Darkness.

 

Also... just the Black.

 

Do you have an opinion on the water resistance and fade proofage of these four blacks? (Well, I know Old Manhattan Blackety-Black Green Black is bulletproof....)

 

Thanks, Viseguy! Way cool'a you to post this comparison.

[CharlieB]

I guess the moral of the story is.... that black isn't always black?

 

I've heard that some of the pen company black inks also have other colors embedded within them. For example, Montblanc Black is reputed to contain some red elements.

[amper]

I'm curious as to the method used to disperse the dyes, given that the Noodler's bulletproof inks bond chemically to cellulose. I would think that the inks would need to be dripped onto a wet paper in order for them to migrate at all, and that the bonding will still take place, despite the wetness. If dripped onto dry paper, then immersed, I would think that it would be difficult to get the dyes to migrate much, at all.

 

Still, thanks for the scans. HoD looks like the one for me.

 

[update] I just tried this with Polar Blue. I took a sheet of Southworth 20lb. 100% cotton Thesis Paper (my least favorite rag paper), thoroughly wet it under the tap, and dripped a drop of Polar Blue on it from the eyedropper. It spread very little, only to about a 2" diameter circle, showing a single dye color. I then stuck the wet sheet to a mirror, and dropped another drop. I got similar results, but this time a 1" x 3" patch. Even thoroughly wet, the dyes won't migrate any further than this in my test. Unfortunately, I have no scanner, and the paper is still wet, anyway, so you can't see the results.

Edited May 28, 2008 by amper

[Rapt]

HoD is bulletproof also.

 

 

(Don't have Old Manhattan to compare to so I can't really say its all about the Heart of Darkness, but it sure has a cooler name.)

 

 

[Viseguy]

Do you have an opinion on the water resistance and fade proofage of these four blacks? (Well, I know Old Manhattan Blackety-Black Green Black is bulletproof....)

Hi e,

 

I've never had any fading problem with any of these. I wouldn't worry about it -- at all.

 

Water resistance -- they're all great. Actually, to be persnickety about it, Black is the only one that has the Bulletproof rating with a capital B. The others are "eternal"; but the difference is pretty much academic. I know that Nile Ebony has a non-waterproof element (I believe it's a 1:1 mix of Swisher quick-drying Midnight Black and Bulletproof Black). I wouldn't be surprised if OM and HoD had some non-waterproof components as well. But if I, a world-class hydromaniac, don't lose any sleep over it (and I don't), then neither should you!

 

After all is said and done, my personal favorite is still a mix of Nile Ebony and Bulletproof Black, in a ratio of about 1:2. But the paper towel thing has made me curious about mixing HoD and Black. That could be veddy interesting...

 

Way cool'a you to post this comparison.

Hey, you started it all with blackety-black and green sheen! But you know... I wouldn't put too much weight on these scans, IIWY. I think there's a large subjective element about which one of these is blacker -- witness the ongoing debate about HoD vs. OM. I can tell you that the differences among these inks IRL is not marked or dramatic. I'd go the Pear Tree samples route before deciding for sure. (He said while doing the backstroke in pools of black ink....)

 

[Viseguy]

I guess the moral of the story is.... that black isn't always black?

Something like that. My pet theory is that the non-black components make the black "pop" more (at least in saturated inks, like Noodler's), whereas pure black might be flatter (in a fountain-pen ink, anyway). But which non-black components, and how much "pop"? A lot of that, it seems to me, is in the eye of the beholder.

[Viseguy]

I'm curious as to the method used to disperse the dyes, given that the Noodler's bulletproof inks bond chemically to cellulose. I would think that the inks would need to be dripped onto a wet paper in order for them to migrate at all, and that the bonding will still take place, despite the wetness. If dripped onto dry paper, then immersed, I would think that it would be difficult to get the dyes to migrate much, at all.

I tried it two ways. 1) Put some ink on a dry paper towel, then dipped one edge of the paper in a cup of water until the water was wicked up across the ink blot. 2) Wet the paper first, then applied the ink (by holding a dip pen to it). Method 2 yielded more photogenic results. (Oh yes, Step 3: hang the paper up to dry before putting it on the scanner!)

 

You'll see that Black was the least amenable to this treatment. I suppose that's because it's totally bulletproof (whereas the others may contain non-bulletproof elements). Or it may have something to do with the anti-feathering properties of Black.

 

[update] I just tried this with Polar Blue. I took a sheet of Southworth 20lb. 100% cotton Thesis Paper (my least favorite rag paper), thoroughly wet it under the tap, and dripped a drop of Polar Blue on it from the eyedropper. It spread very little, only to about a 2" diameter circle, showing a single dye color. I then stuck the wet sheet to a mirror, and dropped another drop. I got similar results, but this time a 1" x 3" patch. Even thoroughly wet, the dyes won't migrate any further than this in my test. Unfortunately, I have no scanner, and the paper is still wet, anyway, so you can't see the results.

I doubt any kind of writing paper would work. You need something porous, like a paper towel or a coffee filter. Or some paper designed for the purpose.

 

Still, thanks for the scans.

Thanks for looking!

 

[amper]

The only coffee filters I have in the house are little tiny ones for my Aeropress coffee maker, so I gave it a shot. I wet the filter, then touched it with the eyedropper of Polar Blue. The ink set so quickly on the coffee filter that it didn't spread more than about 1/4".

[Viseguy]

The only coffee filters I have in the house are little tiny ones for my Aeropress coffee maker, so I gave it a shot. I wet the filter, then touched it with the eyedropper of Polar Blue. The ink set so quickly on the coffee filter that it didn't spread more than about 1/4".

Yup, I had a similar problem with the bulletproof Black. I had somewhat better results with the paper towel, but not much.

[ethernautrix]

The only coffee filters I have in the house are little tiny ones for my Aeropress coffee maker, so I gave it a shot. I wet the filter, then touched it with the eyedropper of Polar Blue. The ink set so quickly on the coffee filter that it didn't spread more than about 1/4".

AEROPRESS!

 

 

Hee! I use one every day before work.

 

 

Once... I neglected the filter, and you know what? Didn't work so good. Heh.

[ethernautrix]

I'd go the Pear Tree samples route before deciding for sure. (He said while doing the backstroke in pools of black ink....)

I loves me the Old Manhattan Black, but my black-black heart is big enough to embrace Heart of Darkness. Seems fitting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Har.

[Deirdre]

Once... I neglected the filter, and you know what? Didn't work so good. Heh.

Proof positive you needed the coffee. :ltcapd:

 

I like Heart of Darkness, but I'm not a collector of blacks. Visconti black seems greenish to me, and not in a Good Way.

[ethernautrix]

Once... I neglected the filter, and you know what? Didn't work so good. Heh.

Proof positive you needed the coffee. :ltcapd:

I was all... wait, WHAT?!

 

Cos South City gets ant infestation, but that didn't make sense, cos I don't have ants... I started to accept the fact that I would have groundy coffee... then I started over. Ha ha ha.

 

I did need the coffee. The Aeropress is a magical thing, and I have you (via IANAN) to thank.

[superbleu]

Here is another Chromatography test of Old manhattan black (left side),

legal lapis is on the the right side

 

[amper]

The only coffee filters I have in the house are little tiny ones for my Aeropress coffee maker, so I gave it a shot. I wet the filter, then touched it with the eyedropper of Polar Blue. The ink set so quickly on the coffee filter that it didn't spread more than about 1/4".

Yup, I had a similar problem with the bulletproof Black. I had somewhat better results with the paper towel, but not much.

 

This probably explains why Polar Blue is the only other ink for which Noodler's offers the challenge, other than the regular Black.

[amper]

The only coffee filters I have in the house are little tiny ones for my Aeropress coffee maker, so I gave it a shot. I wet the filter, then touched it with the eyedropper of Polar Blue. The ink set so quickly on the coffee filter that it didn't spread more than about 1/4".

AEROPRESS!

 

 

Hee! I use one every day before work.

 

 

Once... I neglected the filter, and you know what? Didn't work so good. Heh.

 

Indeed.

 

Plus, I love the little hockey pucks of grounds. Makes it much easier to cart out to the compost pile.

 

[tfwall]

Am now looking at Heart of Darkness.

 

Also... just the Black.

 

Do you have an opinion on the water resistance and fade proofage of these four blacks? (Well, I know Old Manhattan Blackety-Black Green Black is bulletproof....)

 

The fact that HoD only shows black is more likely an artifact of the process than proof of it not having any other other dyes in it.

 

Lack of component separation in chromatography means that you are not using the correct conditions, not that there is only one component. HoD likely employs dyes that are similarly hydrophilic and they all move at a roughly equal rate. The other blacks use dyes of varying hydrophilicity and so they separate as they move at a rate proportional to their hydrophilicity. If I got this data from a student, my first question would be "What other mobile phases have you tried?". Maybe 10% methanol/90% water or 5% methanol/95% hexane would cause separation into meaningful components.

 

Of course, the number and type of components is only loosely correlated with apparent colour. Having only one dye that looks black does not mean that it is a darker/richer/deeper black than a mixture of dyes. The mixture may appear more "black" to you, as an observer.

 

The test is interesting, but it hardly puts the age old question of "Which Noodler's black is darkest?" to rest.

[ethernautrix]

Am now looking at Heart of Darkness.

 

Also... just the Black.

 

Do you have an opinion on the water resistance and fade proofage of these four blacks? (Well, I know Old Manhattan Blackety-Black Green Black is bulletproof....)

 

The fact that HoD only shows black is more likely an artifact of the process than proof of it not having any other other dyes in it.

 

Lack of component separation in chromatography means that you are not using the correct conditions, not that there is only one component. HoD likely employs dyes that are similarly hydrophilic and they all move at a roughly equal rate. The other blacks use dyes of varying hydrophilicity and so they separate as they move at a rate proportional to their hydrophilicity. If I got this data from a student, my first question would be "What other mobile phases have you tried?". Maybe 10% methanol/90% water or 5% methanol/95% hexane would cause separation into meaningful components.

 

Of course, the number and type of components is only loosely correlated with apparent colour. Having only one dye that looks black does not mean that it is a darker/richer/deeper black than a mixture of dyes. The mixture may appear more "black" to you, as an observer.

 

The test is interesting, but it hardly puts the age old question of "Which Noodler's black is darkest?" to rest.

Friend (at work) and I just combined orders from isellpens, each wanting a bottle of HoD. Todd has only one. So, of course, we're fighting over, "No, you take it." "No, please, I insist, you have it." Back and forth.

 

I have the Old Manhattan Black. Friend doesn't like the greenish tint (which I wasn't really aware of until viseguy pointed it out -- and it doesn't bother me). Since I had shown her these photos... she was sure she wanted the HoD.

 

Yeah, we can split the bottle, but I have all this Old Manhattan...! Which I still love!

[Viseguy]

I see purple and brown in my scan of Heart of Darkness, not just black. Although on paper, it's black, for sure. Although... I find it tends to feather a little more than Old Manhattan or Nile Ebony. Nothing earth-shaking, but that's what I see. Not that my experience with HoD is extensive. I'm working my way through a vial of it.