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Lamy blue-black (iron-gall)


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#1 kadymae

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 01:55

I am no mistress of elegant handwriting like several of you here, but here goes:





Front and back of the same sheet of Office Max 28lb Platinum Series Color Laser paper, so yes, bleed through is minimal.

And to re-emphasise the point, though the ink is technically speaking archival, it will, given time, damage the paper it is written on, and the rate of damage is accelerated if the paper itself is not acid-free. If you're using this to handwrite anything you think you might want to read 50 or 60 years from now, use acid free paper or choose another ink.


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#2 PenTieRun

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 03:01

Yes, this is a beautiful ink. Thanks for the review. You explain the need to keep the nib/pen wet while it contains this ink. I'm still fighting to free my Safari of some lingering residue after I let a little dry in the pen for a couple days. Big oops. I was using this ink in its Montblanc incarnation. Too bad it's not available without the iron gall.

#3 kadymae

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 03:27

QUOTE(PenTieRun @ Dec 13 2007, 07:01 PM) View Post
Yes, this is a beautiful ink. Thanks for the review. You explain the need to keep the nib/pen wet while it contains this ink. I'm still fighting to free my Safari of some lingering residue after I let a little dry in the pen for a couple days. Big oops. I was using this ink in its Montblanc incarnation. Too bad it's not available without the iron gall.


I believe that the Lamy Blue-Black that comes in the cartridges is not iron-gall, but ... that means it's not quite the same thing.
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#4 shigidab0p

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 12:46

Sometimes the ink has minor flow problems in my fairly dry pen, but a little twist of the piston converter fixes them. I love the shading, understated colour and how the colour changes as the ink dries.

#5 dhlr14454

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 00:31

Thanks for the review. I've used Lamy Blue on occasion. How did you know Blue-Black was iron-gall? Did it say it on the bottle or box? The smell? Just curious.

#6 shigidab0p

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 03:01

QUOTE (dhlr14454 @ Nov 16 2008, 09:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks for the review. I've used Lamy Blue on occasion. How did you know Blue-Black was iron-gall? Did it say it on the bottle or box? The smell? Just curious.

The way it darkens upon drying and standing is characteristic of iron-gall. Also, it smells quite 'rusty', as I found when i spilt some accidentally.

Edit: It doesn't say on the bottle though. The bottle (or box for that matter) doesn't even say what colour the ink is! Luckily I only have one Lamy ink.

Edited by shigidab0p, 16 November 2008 - 03:21.


#7 EventHorizon

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 17:36

I have been using LAMY Blue/Black for about 10 years and have no issue. I have noticed that the color is different based on the nib. Case in point:

I wrote in my journal last week with a Sheaffer Statesman with said ink then yesterday used the ink in an Esterbrook J with a 2442 nib. The Sheaffer left a black text and the Esterbrook was noticeably blue.
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#8 jbbreau

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 18:34

I've heard that the cartridge blue-black is not an iron-gall ink, is that true?


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#9 Ondina

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 19:43

QUOTE (jbbreau @ Nov 17 2008, 07:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've heard that the cartridge blue-black is not an iron-gall ink, is that true?


Correct, the carts are not iron-gall. Only the Blue-Black in a bottle.

#10 jbbreau

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 01:32

QUOTE (Ondina @ Nov 17 2008, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jbbreau @ Nov 17 2008, 07:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've heard that the cartridge blue-black is not an iron-gall ink, is that true?


Correct, the carts are not iron-gall. Only the Blue-Black in a bottle.


Thanks for the quick answer smile.gif


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#11 FanOfLamy

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 16:39

QUOTE (Ondina @ Nov 17 2008, 08:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jbbreau @ Nov 17 2008, 07:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've heard that the cartridge blue-black is not an iron-gall ink, is that true?


Correct, the carts are not iron-gall. Only the Blue-Black in a bottle.



Hi:

I found contradicting information on Wikipedia that Lamy Blue/Black is a more modern ink and not really an iron gall ink.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Iron_gall_ink (see under the Warning subheader).

Best,

NM

#12 slugbird

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 08:54

since its iron gall wil it corrode fountain pens?

#13 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 12:56

I was in an ink buying mood, when I went to town yesterday. Only 1 of the three I wanted were in town...so Lamy cartridges were bought. Blue Black, Green, and Violet.
I have not tried them yet.

Rats, I don't have a single C/C pen with a semi-flex nib.....well that's a good reason to have ink wells. Chop and pour.
Blue - black seems to be a shading ink. That is good. I don't have a bottle of blue black, and if it works will be on my list.
I just love shading.... I hope the stuff in the cartridges shade.

Well out came the 18 K nail...Lamy Persona.
It does in a cartridge give me a a gray-blue or a washed out blue. It does shade a bit.
The Lamy Joy 1.5 nib. gives the same gray blue color. Being a wider nib, it also shades.

For me on normal copy paper and the tad better, both end up the same shade of blue-gray.

Oddly I'd love to try this in a medium or a fine nib but I don't have any other Lamy's. Perhaps a narrower nib would give me a darker color. In most of my inks, the narrower nibs don't, but I don't have a narrow Lamy to find out.

I am still an ink noobie, but I find it a dry ink.

Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 15 June 2010 - 13:43.

Semi-flex is an “almost” flex; not a ‘flex’ nib. It is great for regular writing. It can give you some fancy; but it is not made for real fancy writing. For that get a 'flexi' or a "flex" nib.

"

 

Wider than Normal does not exist. Wider than Japanese does. Every company has it's very own standard + slop/tolerance. Developed from the users of it's pens only; not the users of other companies pens. The size you grind a nib to, is your standard only. Paper and ink matter to nib width. Thank god for 1/2 sizes or it would be boring.


#14 Lloyd

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 13:49

BoBo: The cartridges of Lamy BlueBlack are not iron gall; only Lamy's bottled BlueBlack is iron gall.
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#15 Vicbowling

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 21:22

BoBo: The cartridges of Lamy BlueBlack are not iron gall; only Lamy's bottled BlueBlack is iron gall.


That looks like a really nice ink. I'll have to try the LAMY Blue/Black too. I have a set of Pelican technical pens and I'm wondering what would be a nice solid black ink that would work in those. I don't want to ruin my pens though with something that I can't get out. I'll see what they say at the art supply store. My pens are about 30 years old, I think and came in a little plastic case of three. I can't wait to try them out.

Edited by Vicbowling, 28 June 2010 - 21:23.


#16 gyasko

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 21:30

The scan looks like what i get from this ink.

I think it's more blue and less dark than MB BB. To me they don't appear to be the same. What is the basis for the oft-repeated claim that they are the same ink in different bottles?

#17 lapis

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 22:36

I think it's more blue and less dark than MB BB. To me they don't appear to be the same. What is the basis for the oft-repeated claim that they are the same ink in different bottles?

They are not the same ink. I verified this by asking both companies, each twice. Sure, they (MB and Lamy customer service staff members) may be as dumb as usually anticipated, but all you have to do is look at the inks' actual colours on paper,and their flows and shadings. If that isn't enough, put two glasses of water next to each other and add a few drops of ink slowly... gently... into the water and keep your eyes open.

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#18 gyasko

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 22:42


I think it's more blue and less dark than MB BB. To me they don't appear to be the same. What is the basis for the oft-repeated claim that they are the same ink in different bottles?

They are not the same ink. I verified this by asking both companies, each twice. Sure, they (MB and Lamy customer service staff members) may be as dumb as usually anticipated, but all you have to do is look at the inks' actual colours on paper,and their flows and shadings. If that isn't enough, put two glasses of water next to each other and add a few drops of ink slowly... gently... into the water and keep your eyes open.


I couldn't agree more. My question is really this: given what seem to be fairly obvious differences, why do people say that these inks are identical?

#19 lapis

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:06

I couldn't agree more. My question is really this: given what seem to be fairly obvious differences, why do people say that these inks are identical?

I don't know if this is the answer but I still see this: {a} both inks are b-b, {b} both resemble each other at least a leedle wee bit as re darkness, dryness, etc, {c} both are in a bottle, whereas their "counterparts" in a cart are not, {d} they're both manufactured in the same country (well, at least the companies claim this), and {e} the big price diff attracts our attention, so why not hope that they are the same?

Mike
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#20 sjchun79

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 12:10

handwriting looks fine! =)

#21 mrt77

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 05:13

I'm curious. How quickly will this ink noticeably damage paper? Moleskine (acid-free), more to the point. I assume it's many years, but I'm curious. Also, anybody know the pH level? I recently bought a bottle and love the color, though I'd like the things I write with it to last as long as I do.

Edited by mrt77, 03 July 2010 - 05:25.


#22 kenmc

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 16:13

Has anyone actually verified that Lamy b/b in the bottle is iron gall? Mine is exactly the same as in the cartridges. It's hard to believe that could be if one were a dye and the other iron gall. Also odd that there was no warning with my bottle. I can't help but think that this is another "tall tale" like the one that MB was the same as Lamy until someone proved that wrong.
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#23 bwnewton

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 15:22

Has anyone actually verified that Lamy b/b in the bottle is iron gall? Mine is exactly the same as in the cartridges. It's hard to believe that could be if one were a dye and the other iron gall. Also odd that there was no warning with my bottle. I can't help but think that this is another "tall tale" like the one that MB was the same as Lamy until someone proved that wrong.


In my experience the cartridge & bottle do not look nor behave the same. I've used a cart of it before and it was much weaker than from the bottle and also didn't change from blue to bluish-grayish-blackish from oxidation like that of the bottle.

#24 dgturner

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 20:25

Has anyone actually verified that Lamy b/b in the bottle is iron gall? Mine is exactly the same as in the cartridges. It's hard to believe that could be if one were a dye and the other iron gall. Also odd that there was no warning with my bottle. I can't help but think that this is another "tall tale" like the one that MB was the same as Lamy until someone proved that wrong.



While I have not asked Lamy directly (that will likely come soon enough), their Wikipedia page does in fact state "The bottled blue-black is an iron gall based ink. It is a modern formulation that is safe for use in fountain pens; however, many fountain pen users suggest taking precautions to avoid problems that may arise from the ink's mild acidity. These include: flushing regularly to avoid corrosion and not allowing an inked pen to remain capped and unused for long periods of time to avoid clogging. However, it should be noted that pens with gold nibs are less prone to corrosion."



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#25 amb

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 04:50

While I have not asked Lamy directly (that will likely come soon enough), their Wikipedia page does in fact state "The bottled blue-black is an iron gall based ink. [...]"

For a counterpoint: I asked Lamy about this a while ago and their answer was quite explicitly that it was not an iron gall ink. I tend to extend some trust to the actual people who make the ink, though certainly not absolute trust; one employee might always be mistaken.

To add to the confusion: I don't trust Wikipedia much for technical detail, especially on obscure topics with no references, but I find it curious that while LAMY's own faq discusses ferro-gallic inks (on this page: http://www.lamy.com/.../index_eng.html, scroll down to "Ink"), they don't actually comment one way or the other about their own inks and say nothing more specific than "The common inks of today for fountain pens are pure colour inks made of water and dyes."

Anyone ever care enough to do an actual chemical analysis? I enjoy and use the ink regularly and am personally content that it's either not ferro-gallic or a clever enough formulation not to be a problem, but I still have lingering curiousity about the "is it or isn't it?" question!

#26 christian83germany

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 08:20


While I have not asked Lamy directly (that will likely come soon enough), their Wikipedia page does in fact state "The bottled blue-black is an iron gall based ink. [...]"

For a counterpoint: I asked Lamy about this a while ago and their answer was quite explicitly that it was not an iron gall ink. I tend to extend some trust to the actual people who make the ink, though certainly not absolute trust; one employee might always be mistaken.

To add to the confusion: I don't trust Wikipedia much for technical detail, especially on obscure topics with no references, but I find it curious that while LAMY's own faq discusses ferro-gallic inks (on this page: http://www.lamy.com/.../index_eng.html, scroll down to "Ink"), they don't actually comment one way or the other about their own inks and say nothing more specific than "The common inks of today for fountain pens are pure colour inks made of water and dyes."

Anyone ever care enough to do an actual chemical analysis? I enjoy and use the ink regularly and am personally content that it's either not ferro-gallic or a clever enough formulation not to be a problem, but I still have lingering curiousity about the "is it or isn't it?" question!


Hi!

I am German and live in Germany. Being in contact with Lamy (Heidelberg) regularly, I can clearly say that the Lamy T52 ink (blue-black, bottle) is an iron-gall ink. Without any doubt.

Cheers
Christian

#27 Ipno Tizer

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 22:16

I wonder whether the conflicting accounts of the chemistry of this ink stem from the fact that Lamy Blue Black is in fact two different products, one which comes in cartridges and annother on a bottle. Nonetheless it would be interesting to see some sort of chemical analysis of the two products just out of curiosity.

But it doesn't really bother me to be honest. LBB is a good blue grey ink which is as permament as most of us will ever need.

I have three inks which fountain pen lore holds to be iron gall. Registrars, MB Midnight Blue and Lamy. There is no doubt that they are all different. Registrar's is the grandest, Midnight Blue is the most sophisticated and Lamy is the prettiest. I wouldn't be without any of them.

And that reminds me. I've got a few ink reviews to finish. Not to mention my tax return. ;)

See you later.

Chris B.

#28 Randal6393

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 05:00

Hmmm -- I use Lamy and Montblanc Blue-Black inks and find their behaviour to be much the same as Old World Iron Gall Ink and McCaffrey's Penman's Ink, but at a slower rate. Both OWIG and MP are iron gall inks formulated for dip pens. Technically, however, I would not call a Fountain Pen Ink such as Lamy or Montblanc iron gall. Rather would refer to it as a ferro-sulfate ink. The dip pen version is much more acidic and made from oak galls. Duplicates the old ink formulaes. Fountain Pen versions are buffered better and much less acidic. And are usually made with commercial iron products rather than oak galls. The change from a blueish color to a black takes hours or days with a fountain pen version. Whereas one can watch dip pen iron gall inks deepen from blue to black as they dry.

In addition to the amount of chemical activity, time and exposure to air affects ferro-sulfate inks. The suggested directions for Old World Iron Gall Ink recommend changing out a bottle every six months if it is used daily. I have noticed that Gillott 303 nibs corrode rapidly and have a greatly lessened life when using iron gall dip pen inks. However, some of the newer dip pen nibs appear to be made of a more corrosion- resistant steel and last a lot longer. The same factors seem to affect fountain pens when used with ferro-sulfate inks, although to a lesser degree. So I wouldn't recommend using such inks in precious pens or for archival documents. On the other hand, nothing looks quite the same as a wedding invitation done in Copperplate with an iron-gall ink.

The reason I enjoy using such inks, be it in fountain pen or a dip pen version, is to experience the history of penmanship. Whatever you use, though, enjoy,

Yours,
Randal

From a person's actions, we may infer attitudes, beliefs, --- and values. We do not know these characteristics outright. The human dichotomies of trust and distrust, honor and duplicity, love and hate --- all depend on internal states we cannot directly experience. Isn't this what adds zest to our life?
 


#29 bwnewton

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 15:08

Hmmm -- I use Lamy and Montblanc Blue-Black inks and find their behaviour to be much the same as Old World Iron Gall Ink and McCaffrey's Penman's Ink, but at a slower rate. Both OWIG and MP are iron gall inks formulated for dip pens. Technically, however, I would not call a Fountain Pen Ink such as Lamy or Montblanc iron gall. Rather would refer to it as a ferro-sulfate ink. The dip pen version is much more acidic and made from oak galls. Duplicates the old ink formulaes. Fountain Pen versions are buffered better and much less acidic. And are usually made with commercial iron products rather than oak galls. The change from a blueish color to a black takes hours or days with a fountain pen version. Whereas one can watch dip pen iron gall inks deepen from blue to black as they dry.

In addition to the amount of chemical activity, time and exposure to air affects ferro-sulfate inks. The suggested directions for Old World Iron Gall Ink recommend changing out a bottle every six months if it is used daily. I have noticed that Gillott 303 nibs corrode rapidly and have a greatly lessened life when using iron gall dip pen inks. However, some of the newer dip pen nibs appear to be made of a more corrosion- resistant steel and last a lot longer. The same factors seem to affect fountain pens when used with ferro-sulfate inks, although to a lesser degree. So I wouldn't recommend using such inks in precious pens or for archival documents. On the other hand, nothing looks quite the same as a wedding invitation done in Copperplate with an iron-gall ink.

The reason I enjoy using such inks, be it in fountain pen or a dip pen version, is to experience the history of penmanship. Whatever you use, though, enjoy,


Thank you for your thorough reply. Much appreciated.

#30 RedSox04

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 03:40

Is this safe for piston filled pens? What about pens with some metal?

Namely Lamy 2000 and Pilot VP
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