Is Smoothness A Silly Goal?

[XiaoMG]

Just the other day, I received a custom nib in the mail from a well-known nib grinder. A few months back, I had received one from a different, also highly-regarded nib grinder. A few months before that, I had gone through several stock nibs that are, again, quite beloved on these fora. Each and every time, I leave the transaction with something I am not satisfied with, even when I try to clearly state what I'm after. I live in Taiwan, and I am sure these guys are willing to try to remedy any problems, but if I have a 0.00 record with these kinds of things, what makes me think that the cost and time of shipping back and forth will yield anything but more disappointment?

 

I went to a shop a few months back with a pen with a nib that I wasn't terribly happy with. The store owner looked at it and said it was quite good, and then did some typical doodling and writing with it. He said he thought it was a very good pen. I said I thought it was scratchy. He replied that it was inevitable because I prefer to use finer points. Unfortunately, I didn't have my smooth nibs with me to show him that there were much smoother fine nibs. I told him it was possible to be smoother, and then he said you don't want too smooth or the nib will just slide around without any control. Why do people jump from one argument (it's impossible) to another (it's undesirable) like that? If I want a scuffy, draggy experience, I have Pilot 78G nibs, or I can get Lamy Safari nibs for cheap. I don't really want to spend $100 for a customized steel nib if I know it will write no smoother than a $10 factory job.

 

Is it unreasonable to want actual smoothness, and not just "at least it's not ripping through the paper" smoothness? I'm guessing from my limited experience and the testimony of others that most of these nibs I have would be perfectly acceptable or even praiseworthy to a lot of folks, perhaps with words like "feedback" to describe the lack of smoothness. Yet I cannot know that with confidence, and I am not really willing to sell them for fear of disappointing a buyer.

 

Perhaps I should just give up on the notion of a smooth pen being a good pen? Perhaps I should avoid custom grinding unless I have a fetish for stubs, italics, obliques, and the like? Is there a way to learn to appreciate these kinds of nibs, thereby rendering the whole "problem" meaningless?

 

Sorry to sound whiny, that's not the intention. I wonder if others have encountered the same kind of feeling, and if they found a way to resolve the issue.

[dds51968]

For me smoothness is paramount on any pen I own.

For whatever it's worth.

 

David

[KrazyIvan]

Just learn to smooth nibs for yourself and you can make make them the way you want. Problem solved. Buy cheap pens and practice on them. Work your way up to the pens you really want and be your own nib tuner. That is my goal. Only you really know what you like. I am not trying to diminish or disparage the pros. They cane do wonders with nibs that I have yet to learn. The hard part is translating what a customer really wants to the final product especially over email or even a telephone call.

 

I do understand a pen can be too smooth and skate across the page. It is not something I like. I do like just the slightest bit of tooth to keep the pen under control.

Edited June 16, 2012 by KrazyIvan

[Mickey]

Smooth is certainly possible. Select a wet writing ink, lighten your touch (a lot) and use nothing but Rhodia paper. Lighten up enough and even a nib which appears misaligned to the naked eye can feel smooth.

 

Consider the possibility that how you use the pen is contributing to the problem, in fact, that it may be the primary problem. I suspect you are putting too much pressure on the nib.

 

There is relationship between smoothness and pressure. If you press hard enough to compress the ink from between the nib and the paper, there is nothing any nib-grinder can do to make the experience smooth. Essentially dry, unlubricated metal rubbing on paper is not going to feel smooth. Likewise, if you do not present the nib to the page at a consistent angle and orientation, there is nothing to be done. The sweet spot on a nib is not infinitely large.

 

That you have been uniformly dissatisfied with credible products (and workmanship) suggests strongly to me that the problem is with your technique, not with the hardware. A review of proper pen technique might save you a lot of money and frustration.

[Pickwick]

One thing I learned from members on FPN resolving a scratchy nib is writing on a brown craft paper bag. I fhave found it works extremely well.

[XiaoMG]

Smooth is certainly possible. Select a wet writing ink, lighten your touch (a lot) and use nothing but Rhodia paper. Lighten up enough and even a nib which appears misaligned to the naked eye can feel smooth.

 

Consider the possibility that how you use the pen is contributing to the problem, in fact, that it may be the primary problem. I suspect you are putting too much pressure on the nib.

 

There is relationship between smoothness and pressure. If you press hard enough to compress the ink from between the nib and the paper, there is nothing any nib-grinder can do to make the experience smooth. Essentially dry, unlubricated metal rubbing on paper is not going to feel smooth. Likewise, if you do not present the nib to the page at a consistent angle and orientation, there is nothing to be done. The sweet spot on a nib is not infinitely large.

 

That you have been uniformly dissatisfied with credible products (and workmanship) suggests strongly to me that the problem is with your technique, not with the hardware. A review of proper pen technique might save you a lot of money and frustration.

Yes, I should have noted that people would inevitably blame my technique (in fact, one reason I am reluctant to send the nibs back is that I do not want to be told that the nibs are fine and that I'm the problem). However, my technique seems not too bad. Rather, the custom nibs that I have are simply inferior in smoothness to other nibs that I already have. Whether I use virtually no pressure or I press slightly into the paper; whether I'm using smooth Tomoe River, toothy Rhodia, or even slightly rougher paper, several of my nibs (some with only a little tipping, some with big blobs...one or two out of the box, and the rest lightly touched up) perform better than all of the inspected and custom jobs I've gotten from the USA.

 

I will of course continue to check up on my technique (which I've had investigated by some writing teachers who use FPs), but I am already pretty sure that the problem is that these nibs are just not that smooth. My thinking was that perhaps the grinders don't emphasize smoothness, instead preferring to give a pronounced V-shaped channel to the nib slit to encourage flow, which leaves the tipping sitting on two relatively narrow peaks. When I asked for smoothness, it wasn't delivered, even if most of the nibs are basically sound (a few were noticeably uneven, but probably within spec). I guess since people describe "smoothness" in pretty widely divergent ways, it is reasonable that I'd consistently get something that others would likely call "smooth with just a bit of feedback" (which I always read as "smooth with just a bit of not smooth").

 

As another user said, I should probably just continue trying to figure out smoothing on my own, as I've had some occasional (but not consistent) success with my own cheap nibs. I really would prefer to be lazy and safe and have an expert do it for me, but it seems that is not reasonable.

(And just to clarify, since I think I expressed it poorly...my "0.00 average" was with semi-custom and custom nibs, while I have had a bit better luck with a few factory offerings, and with some [but not all] that I tweaked myself)

Edited June 16, 2012 by XiaoMG

[Ytland]

I've contacted you back channel to see if something can be worked out. Don't lose faith, the quest is long and unforgiving, but worthwhile when the end is reached

[Mickey]

 

I will of course continue to check up on my technique (which I've had investigated by some writing teachers who use FPs), but I am already pretty sure that the problem is that these nibs are just not that smooth. My thinking was that perhaps the grinders don't emphasize smoothness, instead preferring to give a pronounced V-shaped channel to the nib slit to encourage flow, which leaves the tipping sitting on two relatively narrow peaks.

 

If this forum is representative, complaints about excessive v-channel bevel (baby's bottom) are most often made about factory nib, not regrinds. Most nibgrinders in the U.S. try to minimize (not entirely eliminate) "baby's bottom" (an over-sized v-shaped channel) because it can cause hard starts and skips. (A very small amount of bevel between the tines is desirable for smooth writing and proper ink flow.)

 

 

When I asked for smoothness, it wasn't delivered, even if most of the nibs are basically sound (a few were noticeably uneven, but probably within spec). I guess since people describe "smoothness" in pretty widely divergent ways, it is reasonable that I'd consistently get something that others would likely call "smooth with just a bit of feedback" (which I always read as "smooth with just a bit of not smooth").

 

 

Draw slow circles and line in various directions on a page. If the amount of 'feedback' drawing circles is the same as you pass through all points of the compass, the issue is probably nib polish, ink lubricity, and or flow rate. If the pen feel smoothest only on the pull strokes, the problem is most likely excessive pressure. If the 'feedback' is on one side stroke or the other the issue is probably alignment.

 

Here's something else to consider. Flexible or soft nibs sometimes do not feel as smooth as comparably fine nails.

 

You mentioned Rhodia as being toothy. I experience a bit of tooth on Rhodia, but only with dry writing pens, which is my preference. I don't care for glassy smoothness and don't see the point of it. I believe a small amount of uniform drag is desirable. (Trying driving on a wet road with bald tires. You can do it, but it's a lot more work.)

[UDog]

XiaMG

 

I know exactly what you are talking about. I have some nibs that are just heaven to write with,

and I have others that are acceptable but nothing like my favorites. I have gone the nibmeister

route and have been disappointed in their work.

 

Like some kind of inverse function, it seems my least expensive pen/nibs are the best writers. Those

inexpensive writers have all had steel nibs. I look now for mostly steel-nibbed pens, and I have

recently learned to smooth my own nibs. I have become quite good at it, at least it satisfies

what I want in terms of smoothness.

[doctoralberto]

For me smoothness is paramount on any pen I own.

For whatever it's worth.

 

David

+1

[jar]

Sorry that you have had such bad luck. I've been fortunate I guess and would say that the vast majority of pens I've bought over the last half century have been smooth. So far I've never had one that needed to be sent to a nib meister to make it smooth, but have used them often to create a special grind.

[Ghost Plane]

I like mine to float like hovercraft, so I can appreciate your frustration.

 

What helped my nibmeister [MikeItWork] to comprehend my desires was sending along a perfect [to me] nib along with the problem pen. Then giving a writing sample from the perfect pen next to a sample of the not so perfect. Also a description of my unconventional stance in holding and using a pen. I got back perfection + now he know's my requirements and can match them perfectly every time. The more data I gave, the better the result.

 

Trying to get a custom grind by mail is sort of like getting custom clothes by mail when the tailor can't work from your body, only by the measurements you send.

 

The paperbag trick is great for cheap nibs, not so good for high end pens where I've seen considerable damage

[ravantra]

I like very smooth pens and I also like some pens with a "scratchy" feedback feel. I enjoy the skrip skrip skrip sound and feedback or even the squeak, marker on illustration board sound from some pens. Weird right?

[Chi Town]

+1 for KrazyIvan.......I really think this is the Best option for you!

If sending out to professional nibmeisters and multiple ones at that are not satisfying you, then you simply need to learn, as I am for myself, how to grind / smooth your own nibs. granted my reasoning for doing it is different than yours, but that is neither here nor there, This way you can critique yourself on the spot and make the necessary adjustments right then and there,

[Bo Bo Olson]

Mickey like normal has some great advice.

Lots of other good advice here, too.

 

Ghost Plane's is real pertainate to all sending a nib off to be worked on.

 

Your problem is F or EF nibs...In you didn't mention the pen types, I don't know if you are talking western or Japanese widths....both of which have tolerance of course. An EF or a Japanese F is a mini-tip.

 

M nibs are on the whole smoother than F, they have wider tipping.

 

I have a Pelikan 600 (BB) a modern MB (B+BB) and a Cross Townsend (M) that are Butter Smooth. Oddly I don't use them much.

 

One of my nicest nibs is a Pelikan 120 F...a joy to write with. It is smooth; butter smooth would be a wet ink, very nice in a medium nib, in a dry ink like ESSR, it has more feel than other inks.

It like many of my nice to me nibbed German pens have a very flat tipping, compared to those with a ball under the nib...US type, and now rather standard.

Is it smooth because or in spite of the flatter tipping? I don't know...but as 'Noobie' the first time I saw those 'flattened nib bottoms' I thought some idiot took it to a stone.

 

I normally chase semi-flex and maxi-semi-flex/'flexi' nibs. Some are also very smooth. I don't look for Butter in them. I accept a tad of tooth.

 

Some I'm sure have some tooth more than some folks would want....

A tad of Tooth is scratchy to someone after only butter smooth.

 

(Of course there are scratchy nibs...that can normally be cured by a loupe to see if it's misaligned and or a high quality brown paper bag or cardboard box.

That's not your problem.

 

Have you checked your nib's alignment...who knows when Murphy never sleeps. Your alignment could be off. Alignment is dead easy to fix.

 

Do you cant your nib a tad? Even with out knowing it?...that would reduce the tipping's area. Reducing smoothness.

 

Where do you hold your fountain pen, before your front knuckle, behind it?...if so try putting it in the deeper into depth of the web of your thumb. The angle of the grind could be different ... than the way you hold your fountain pen.

 

 

To those who are not after Only butter smooth, a touch of tooth can be nice.

 

 

I am using a different script cursive than Chinese....so it could be I'm comparing apples to pineapples.

 

It was recommended to lighten up your grip and writing pressure.

 

If you go into the Advanced Search, look in both

'Tripod' and 'Death Grip' threads, to look at both the posts on the 'classic' tripod, and on a variant I call 'forefinger up'.

 

I cured 50 years of DEATH GRIP in 2 1/2 minutes it took me to learn the forefinger up method of grasping a fountain pen.

 

Got rid of fountain pen Kung Fu's dreaded Crab Pinch too.

 

It removes stress and strain of writing, and automatically lightens your grip, with out months of learning how to do so, the "Classic Tripod" way.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Bo Bo Olson

[Alohamora]

Can I ask what type of ink you are using? Some inks feel dry and scratchy to me, but in the same pen other inks (sailor, iro, penman, eel) will make the pen glide. Wetter flow feels smoother than drier too.

[JustinJ]

Hi Robert,

 

I do not consider your post whining. You are unhappy since you spent a lot of money on getting a custom nib that does not meet your expectations.

 

I was curious how the Edison nib was going to work out for you. Is this the Edison nib that you had custom work done on?

 

I am assuming that the nib person is wanting to charge you again to work on it. Is this true?

 

What factory pen nibs are your best nibs?

Edited June 16, 2012 by JustinJ

[XiaoMG]

Can I ask what type of ink you are using? Some inks feel dry and scratchy to me, but in the same pen other inks (sailor, iro, penman, eel) will make the pen glide. Wetter flow feels smoother than drier too.

This is a pretty good question. I primarily test using Iroshizuku inks like Kon-Peki, and then Sailor Kiwaguro. If the nib seems stingy, I toss a more watery ink like Aurora Black in. I will also test with other inks, just to see its overall pattern of behavior.

 

Hi Robert,

 

I do not consider your post whining. You are unhappy since you spent a lot of money on getting a custom nib that does not meet your expectations.

 

I was curious how the Edison nib was going to work out for you. Is this the Edison nib that you had custom work done on?

 

I am assuming that the nib person is wanting to charge you again to work on it. Is this true?

 

What factory pen nibs are your best nibs?

I'm hoping to try to avoid inadvertantly adopting the position of "angry iconoclast" in this thread by omitting names. For what it's worth though, my problematic Edison nibs have always been stock production nibs, rather than personally custom-ground work from him. My most recent custom nib was bought from the nib grinder, rather than one that I sent to them for regrinding. I am reluctant to take it up with them personally as my luck has been such that I'm not confident I can get what I want by sending it back. Rather than use this thread as a simple rant about the inadequacy of custom work, which of course flies in the face of many users' experiences, I am wondering if perhaps by emphasizing smoothness, I'm being a bit unreasonable or even silly.

 

I have had some mixed luck with factory nibs, but I have been lucky with a Pilot Custom 74 and a Pilot Capless Decimo's nib unit (though some subsequent units were not as good). I've also gotten a very nice experience from a Sailor Profit Standard that I adjusted a bit myself. However, I had less luck at a pen shop when trying out a 21K Realo and the MF Custom 74 they had available, and admittedly my F nib Decimo was comparable in smoothness to the M nib that was being used as a demo (the shop owner was actually pretty surprised by it). I know it is possible, but I do not like gambling with brands, and cannot always test pens. That's what makes the semi-custom and custom route so appealing.

Edited June 16, 2012 by XiaoMG

[BrandonA]

For me smoothness is paramount on any pen I own.

For whatever it's worth.

 

David

 

 

A pen that does not write properly is pointless.

[jde]

For me smoothness is paramount on any pen I own.

For whatever it's worth.

 

David

 

 

A pen that does not write properly is pointless.

 

(Very punny Brandon!)

 

+Another here. Not a silly goal at all.

 

I share your difficulty in not being able to get to pen shows or necessarily test pens before trying them on.

 

I like mine to float like hovercraft, so I can appreciate your frustration.

 

Ghost Plane describes the quality of smoothness aptly! And also her point of giving as much information

as possible certainly helps. And sometimes it does require a couple of back and forths/nib exchanges between you and the nib person.

 

One of the famous nibmeisters wrote something about how difficult it was to find someone (in his teachings) who can consistently perform the same grind from pen to pen. Something like that. That is why grinding is a craft. I've tried learning to grind my own...and got a good nib once and never again. No time or patience here. I just want a pen that writes, smoothly and consistently, for they are my tools not my hobby.

 

I am quite PICKY about the performance of my nibs. Putting all the other factors aside (pressure,

paper, ink...you are using nice flowing inks, btw, IMO)...

 

IMHE or not so Humble perhaps: I've found that steel nibs have not been good candidates for regrinds or modifications. (That said, I have one exception in my pen collection. It's a perfect steel stub but only because I had the opportunity to sit with the nib worker in person and kept handing it back to him until he got it to my liking. Oh dear.) For those about to jump down my virtual throat, note I am not you and you are not me. This is my opinion. You don't have to subscribe to it, eh?

 

I've found that gold nibs are better candidates for re-grinds. I like fine nibs (fine on the Japanese side of nibs). I require smoothness and abhor excessive wetness. I too have spent a lot of money in the quest for nibs to my liking.

 

It is very frustrating to at least some of us. There are two nibmeisters who have done great work on my pens. There are far more nibmeisters that people love—whose work I find unacceptable for me personally.

 

Hang in. I'm sure you're getting some good advice back channel. Follow your own instincts. No one is a God, eh?

 

Edited to add: Of course smoothness can be attained. We all have pens that prove that, me included!

Edited June 16, 2012 by jde