Jump to content


Photo

Original Targa Finish?


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 Garageboy

Garageboy

    Donor Pen

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,223 posts
  • Location:Brooklyn NY

Posted 21 February 2012 - 23:58

What is the official first model of "Targa"? The 1001?
Thanks

#2 barleycorn

barleycorn

    Vintage

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 426 posts
  • Location:London, Ontario
  • Flag:

Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:09

Excellent question that I am sure Jar or one of the others might be able to answer more precisely. The 1000 chrome and 1001 stainless models came out around 1979 or 1980 but they were preceded by a few gold and silver models. Some as early as 1976 according to the website list.

Another question would be what was the last model line produced. This may be confused by the practice of over production. Some pens produced in year 1 are not distributed until year 4 or 5. So model B produced in year 3 or 4 may follow the last of model A sold years later.

#3 nordlys47

nordlys47

    Dipped Only

  • Member - Silver

  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 25 February 2012 - 12:14

If its any help I've discovered http://www.sheaffertarga.com/ which I've found to be one of the most comprehensive info sites for Targas (also very good for some other Sheaffers).
It gives information and images on all finishes, model numbers, dates, and much more.

#4 dannyboy

dannyboy

    Vintage

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 756 posts

Posted 25 February 2012 - 12:36

You've found the very best site for information on the Targa! If Gary Ellison, proprietor of this site, doesn't know the answer, then it's probably not known. Welcome to one of the best Sheaffer pens ever produced! Beware--they're addictive!!!!!!!!!

#5 barleycorn

barleycorn

    Vintage

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 426 posts
  • Location:London, Ontario
  • Flag:

Posted 25 February 2012 - 22:46

When I wrote " the website list", I was indeed referring to Sheaffertarga.com. Rather than quote the numbers on the list I thought someone might have some input as the exact details tend to get a bit vague after some 35 years. There seem to be three candidates: stainless steel, gold and silver. I bought my first, a 1001 stainless, around 1980 so the introduction predates me by a few years. As I recall I had a No Nonsense pen and saved money from a paper route to buy one at about age...let's just say I was not old enough to drive. And I am still using the nib section in a slightly less traveled shell.

#6 sexauerw

sexauerw

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,503 posts
  • Location:Pacific Northwet, USA

Posted 26 February 2012 - 05:46

It's really difficult to pin down the dates. Gary and I struggled a great deal with them when we put together the list for his web site. The available references were Andreas Lambrou's Fountain Pens of the World and whatever Sheaffer catalogs and price lists we (mostly Gary) could find. Since there were 22 years of production from four different countries and we could only come up with a dozen or so catalogs, that left a lot of holes. And Lambrou's book is a good reference but not 100% accurate with respect to details of dates.

Some models were introduced in Europe two years or so before they were sold in America, and perhaps vice versa. In other cases the factories in different countries did not even coordinate with each other to avoid duplicating model numbers and so there are cases where two or even three different pens have the same model number. And the nomenclature for a model might change over time or across an ocean. Building the list that you see on Gary's web site was a real challenge! We think we did pretty well for the introduction dates for the earliest introduction of each model, but we don't, in many cases, know the end date of production of the individual models.

It's not like Sheaffer kept a master model list for the benefit of future collectors. They only published catalogs and price lists of what they were selling "this year". And the advertising copy is not always 100% accurate either. It was usually prepared in advance and may not have reflected the final configuration of the product. So I suspect that Gary's list will always remain a work-in-progress. Catalogs will continue to be found that will fill in some gaps and Gary will be able to make some updates. But I also think that there will forever be some things we will never know, that have already been forgotten or lost.

As to the "first" model, as far as I know the following models were introduced simultaneously in 1976:
1001xg, brushed stainless steel with gold nib and gold-plated clip
1004, sterling silver straight line pattern with gold nib and chrome-plated clip
1004x, sterling silver straight line pattern with gold nib and gold-plated clip
1005, gold-plated fluted pattern with gold nib and gold-plated clip
1007, gold-plated chequered pattern with gold nib and gold-plated clip
and possibly:
1006, sterling silver chequered pattern with gold nib and chrome-plated clip
1006x, sterling silver chequered pattern with gold nib and gold-plated clip

Bill Sexauer
PCA+++Logo+small.jpgBlk+Pen+Society+Icon.jpgCP04_Black_Legend%2C_Small.jpg
PCA Member since 2006


#7 gee09

gee09

    Vintage

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 513 posts
  • Location:Sheffield, England.

Posted 26 February 2012 - 20:28

Here's a couple of pictures from a 1976 booklet showing which I think was the original line up of Targa pens in the UK. I was told that Sheaffer UK Reps used these when taking advance orders before the pens launch and delivery of the pens was delayed for nearly a year because of problems with production. However like Bill says, which pens were sold first in the USA could be different to the ones shown in the pictures.

Posted Image Posted Image

Below is a 1977 list which shows only a ballpen was available in the 1001 finish, I guess Sheaffer didn't make a steel nib at first or it wasn't sold in the UK.
Posted Image

Here's the 1978 list showing changes to some of the model numbers.
Posted Image

Now for the 1980 list showing the introduction of lots of new finishes and the 1001 fountain pen , I afraid some joker decided to scribble over some of the pens!
Posted ImagePosted Image



Cheers

Gary

#8 barleycorn

barleycorn

    Vintage

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 426 posts
  • Location:London, Ontario
  • Flag:

Posted 27 February 2012 - 16:01

Thank you Gentlemen. Nice to see the old sales brochures. You gotta love the old prices!! Kudos on the website. It is a great source of info and, again, pictures that make those eBay and auction finds easier to identify.

#9 Joe in Seattle

Joe in Seattle

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,726 posts
  • Location:Seattle, Washington
  • Flag:

Posted 27 February 2012 - 17:29

I'm not all knowing, of course, but the stainless steel model was the first one I ever saw, way back then, and I bought it immediately.
"how do I know what I think until I write it down?"

#10 OcalaFlGuy

OcalaFlGuy

    Ancient Artifact

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,350 posts
  • Location:North Central Florida USA
  • Flag:

Posted 27 February 2012 - 18:59

Bill's excellent post above is exactly why when I have Targa questions, he's the guy I go to for the answers.

He more than likely owns at least one of whatever Targa I'm inquiring about.

Bruce in Ocala, FL

#11 Garageboy

Garageboy

    Donor Pen

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,223 posts
  • Location:Brooklyn NY

Posted 04 April 2012 - 19:39

Thanks! I just wanted a Targa in a first year pattern

#12 rogerzilla

rogerzilla

    Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 102 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 05 April 2012 - 18:42

The basic stainless steel one with the stainless steel nib (1001) just might be the best bargain out there. I paid about 20 quid for one. Put it next to my Valor (palladium plated nib, so it looks similar) and I reckon most people would pick the Targa for fit, finish and design.

#13 penmanila

penmanila

    Vacumaniac

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,612 posts
  • Location:Manila/Virginia/San Diego
  • Flag:

Posted 06 April 2012 - 05:33

i'm glad to learn that my sterling-silver targa, a gift from friends at the local pen shop, was a first-year model. it has a buttery-smooth B nib.

Posted Image
Check out my blog and my pens

#14 Roger W.

Roger W.

    Irish Wolfhound

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,763 posts

Posted 14 April 2012 - 20:27

Bill;

I note in this thread there is a 1023 (ad from Gee09) and no such animal on the list - is this a UK to US conversion item? I'm trying to get a list down before I start buying, thanks. If I didn't mistype there are - both classic and slim - 154 targas?

Roger W.

#15 sexauerw

sexauerw

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,503 posts
  • Location:Pacific Northwet, USA

Posted 14 April 2012 - 22:00

Bill;

I note in this thread there is a 1023 (ad from Gee09) and no such animal on the list - is this a UK to US conversion item? I'm trying to get a list down before I start buying, thanks. If I didn't mistype there are - both classic and slim - 154 targas?

Roger W.

Roger,
Yes, it is a UK to US conversion item. There are three such on that ad.
UK model 1021 is the same as US model 1005, Gold Fluted.
UK model 1023 is the same as US model 1007, Gold Chequered.
UK model 1024XG has no US equivalent.

Now the fun begins. There is a US model 1021, Imperial Red. That is a completely different pen than the UK 1021, Gold Deep Cut.
There is also a US series 1024, 1024X, 1024SB and 1024XSB which are all variations of a model named Imperial Sterling. The X denotes a gold-plated clip, otherwise the clip is chrome-plated. The SB denotes that the pen is supplied with a silver-plated box and a silver-plated box for four cartridges, otherwise the pen comes with normal packaging. Again, this pen is not at all the same as the UK 1024XG.

These are not the only examples of model numbers being duplicated by the different factories in the various countries. There are several other instances of this little problem as well. Most, but not all, are shown on the list at www.sheaffertarga.com.

By the way, Gary Ellison and I spent a lot of time and effort building that list; it was not a trivial project. Sheaffer's documentation of the Targa line was not good. Sheaffer did not ever have a master list of Targa model numbers! I'm sure of that because all this duplication of models under the same numbers couldn't have happened if they were using a master list. I'm not convinced that we have completely constructed one even now. For example, I have a strong suspicion that the pen now known as 1021 Imperial Red may have been originally released in the UK or France as model 1028 Laqué Bordeaux. And there is already a 1028 Laqué Marble Grey Ronce. So if that list is the list you referred to and are using, please be aware that it may well still be a work in progress. That said, I think we're pretty close. I would be very surprised to find more than two or possibly three mistakes in the list at this point. We've scrubbed it pretty hard by now.

Your count of 154 includes a lot cases where there are variations within a model. For example, there are ten variations of the basic brushed stainless steel model 1001. Gold or chrome clip, gold or steel nib, full-size or slim, and early or late production model. (I know, that's 16 possible combinations, but only 10 of them were ever made. That we know of.) That's an extreme example but there are a lot of models with some variations. If you just want one of each model, then the actual number is more like 116 if you want both full-sized and slim, or 88 if you just want one.

Bill Sexauer
PCA+++Logo+small.jpgBlk+Pen+Society+Icon.jpgCP04_Black_Legend%2C_Small.jpg
PCA Member since 2006


#16 Roger W.

Roger W.

    Irish Wolfhound

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,763 posts

Posted 15 April 2012 - 05:13


Bill;

I note in this thread there is a 1023 (ad from Gee09) and no such animal on the list - is this a UK to US conversion item? I'm trying to get a list down before I start buying, thanks. If I didn't mistype there are - both classic and slim - 154 targas?

Roger W.

Roger,
Yes, it is a UK to US conversion item. There are three such on that ad.
UK model 1021 is the same as US model 1005, Gold Fluted.
UK model 1023 is the same as US model 1007, Gold Chequered.
UK model 1024XG has no US equivalent.

Now the fun begins. There is a US model 1021, Imperial Red. That is a completely different pen than the UK 1021, Gold Deep Cut.
There is also a US series 1024, 1024X, 1024SB and 1024XSB which are all variations of a model named Imperial Sterling. The X denotes a gold-plated clip, otherwise the clip is chrome-plated. The SB denotes that the pen is supplied with a silver-plated box and a silver-plated box for four cartridges, otherwise the pen comes with normal packaging. Again, this pen is not at all the same as the UK 1024XG.

These are not the only examples of model numbers being duplicated by the different factories in the various countries. There are several other instances of this little problem as well. Most, but not all, are shown on the list at www.sheaffertarga.com.

By the way, Gary Ellison and I spent a lot of time and effort building that list; it was not a trivial project. Sheaffer's documentation of the Targa line was not good. Sheaffer did not ever have a master list of Targa model numbers! I'm sure of that because all this duplication of models under the same numbers couldn't have happened if they were using a master list. I'm not convinced that we have completely constructed one even now. For example, I have a strong suspicion that the pen now known as 1021 Imperial Red may have been originally released in the UK or France as model 1028 Laqué Bordeaux. And there is already a 1028 Laqué Marble Grey Ronce. So if that list is the list you referred to and are using, please be aware that it may well still be a work in progress. That said, I think we're pretty close. I would be very surprised to find more than two or possibly three mistakes in the list at this point. We've scrubbed it pretty hard by now.

Your count of 154 includes a lot cases where there are variations within a model. For example, there are ten variations of the basic brushed stainless steel model 1001. Gold or chrome clip, gold or steel nib, full-size or slim, and early or late production model. (I know, that's 16 possible combinations, but only 10 of them were ever made. That we know of.) That's an extreme example but there are a lot of models with some variations. If you just want one of each model, then the actual number is more like 116 if you want both full-sized and slim, or 88 if you just want one.


Bill;

Have you a nice list of 116 such pens that I could start with. Should take quite a while to fill once you get thru the common ones. Thanks,

Roger W.

#17 Roger W.

Roger W.

    Irish Wolfhound

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,763 posts

Posted 15 April 2012 - 05:20



Bill;

I note in this thread there is a 1023 (ad from Gee09) and no such animal on the list - is this a UK to US conversion item? I'm trying to get a list down before I start buying, thanks. If I didn't mistype there are - both classic and slim - 154 targas?

Roger W.

Roger,
Yes, it is a UK to US conversion item. There are three such on that ad.
UK model 1021 is the same as US model 1005, Gold Fluted.
UK model 1023 is the same as US model 1007, Gold Chequered.
UK model 1024XG has no US equivalent.

Now the fun begins. There is a US model 1021, Imperial Red. That is a completely different pen than the UK 1021, Gold Deep Cut.
There is also a US series 1024, 1024X, 1024SB and 1024XSB which are all variations of a model named Imperial Sterling. The X denotes a gold-plated clip, otherwise the clip is chrome-plated. The SB denotes that the pen is supplied with a silver-plated box and a silver-plated box for four cartridges, otherwise the pen comes with normal packaging. Again, this pen is not at all the same as the UK 1024XG.

These are not the only examples of model numbers being duplicated by the different factories in the various countries. There are several other instances of this little problem as well. Most, but not all, are shown on the list at www.sheaffertarga.com.

By the way, Gary Ellison and I spent a lot of time and effort building that list; it was not a trivial project. Sheaffer's documentation of the Targa line was not good. Sheaffer did not ever have a master list of Targa model numbers! I'm sure of that because all this duplication of models under the same numbers couldn't have happened if they were using a master list. I'm not convinced that we have completely constructed one even now. For example, I have a strong suspicion that the pen now known as 1021 Imperial Red may have been originally released in the UK or France as model 1028 Laqué Bordeaux. And there is already a 1028 Laqué Marble Grey Ronce. So if that list is the list you referred to and are using, please be aware that it may well still be a work in progress. That said, I think we're pretty close. I would be very surprised to find more than two or possibly three mistakes in the list at this point. We've scrubbed it pretty hard by now.

Your count of 154 includes a lot cases where there are variations within a model. For example, there are ten variations of the basic brushed stainless steel model 1001. Gold or chrome clip, gold or steel nib, full-size or slim, and early or late production model. (I know, that's 16 possible combinations, but only 10 of them were ever made. That we know of.) That's an extreme example but there are a lot of models with some variations. If you just want one of each model, then the actual number is more like 116 if you want both full-sized and slim, or 88 if you just want one.


Bill;

Have you a nice list of 116 such pens that I could start with. Should take quite a while to fill once you get thru the common ones. Thanks,

Roger W.


OK cutting out the 2nds and the x's, etc. I've got a list of 116. That includes some a's and the 1028 twice as two are completely different. Therefore, I may have it.

Roger W.

#18 sexauerw

sexauerw

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,503 posts
  • Location:Pacific Northwet, USA

Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:00

Roger,
Sheaffer never used an "a" suffix on a model number. The two Harrods limited editions were released as models 1067 and 1083 even though there were already existing models with those numbers. Some collectors decided to call the Harrods models 1067a and 1083a just to have unique model numbers for what really were unique models. That nomenclature has persisted. But I have no idea who the collector or collectors were that started it. In any event, enough people were using that numbering that Gary and I decided to keep it. But we should really have Gary put a footnote in his web site that those two model numbers are unofficial. The "x", "g", "s" and "sb" are all cataloged Sheaffer suffixes.

I didn't make a list of the 116 because I thought you would figure it out. I'm glad I was right.

Bill Sexauer
PCA+++Logo+small.jpgBlk+Pen+Society+Icon.jpgCP04_Black_Legend%2C_Small.jpg
PCA Member since 2006


#19 Roger W.

Roger W.

    Irish Wolfhound

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,763 posts

Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:13

Roger,
Sheaffer never used an "a" suffix on a model number. The two Harrods limited editions were released as models 1067 and 1083 even though there were already existing models with those numbers. Some collectors decided to call the Harrods models 1067a and 1083a just to have unique model numbers for what really were unique models. That nomenclature has persisted. But I have no idea who the collector or collectors were that started it. In any event, enough people were using that numbering that Gary and I decided to keep it. But we should really have Gary put a footnote in his web site that those two model numbers are unofficial. The "x", "g", "s" and "sb" are all cataloged Sheaffer suffixes.

I didn't make a list of the 116 because I thought you would figure it out. I'm glad I was right.


Bill;

So you don't have any a's - they look like they would be extremely expensive. Well, I think a nice collection of Targas will not be hard to put together. I guess the numbering problems just confirms that companies are not run by collectors but greedy pigs willing to sell anything they can - sad really. Still, I'm a Sheaffer guy and will adjust accordingly.

Roger