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Comparison - Noodler's #41 Brown :: 41 - 2012


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#1 Sandy1

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:13

For convenient viewing of the images in all their inky goodness, you may wish to scroll to the menu at the very bottom of this window, then ensure the Theme is 'IP.Board Mobile'.

Please take a moment to adjust your gear to accurately depict this Gray Scale.
As the patches are neutral gray, that is what should be seen.

Mac http://www.wikihow.c...te-Your-Monitor
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Gray Scale.
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- -


Please Note:

  • Both inks were previously reviewed using Written Samples generated from the same pens and papers.
  • This Comparison includes fewer samples than those Reviews, but hopefully enough to support the comparison process.

Figure 1. Pen Strokes.
Swabs were not used, rather the NIB-ism samples of down-strokes on HPJ1124 from the same six pens used for the Reviews are shown at the same scale - the pencil lines are 25mm apart.

Left Side: Original.
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WRITTEN SAMPLES - Moby Dick.
Ruling: 8mm.

Figure 2.
Paper: HPJ1124.
Left Side: Original.
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Figure 3.
Paper: Rhodia.
Left Side: Original.
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Figure 4.
Paper: Staples 20lb.
Left Side: Original.
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Figures 5 & 6 are my Personal Pen & Paper Picks made from the Written Samples for each ink.
I was taken aback that my choices are so different. Then again, I have more contradictions than my drawer of athletic socks.

Figure 5.
PP&PP for the Original was the Prelude on G Lalo.
Left Side: Original.
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Figure 6.
PP&PP for the 2012 was the C74 on Rhodia.
Left Side: Original.
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OTHER STUFF

Figure 6.
Smear / Dry Times & Wet Tests.
Left Side: Original.
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PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS

From the first Figure, it is apparent that the inks are very different. In most cases I would have just posted swabs then closed with a Gallic shrug and valediction of 'YMMV'. But not this time. Not really. (Although most readers may have left this Topic by now.)


USE

Business:
(From the office of Ms Blue-Black.)
  • The Original was considered well-suited for much hand-written correspondence; and a contender for a daily writer ink.
  • The 2012 was relegated to an 'alternate / auxiliary' ink.
  • The stink of 2012 may result in one being removed from the premises by thugs in cheap suits.
Illustrations / Graphics:
  • The Original has sufficient density to make it suitable as an alternative to Black, or could be played-off (counterpoint) against Black.
  • The 2012 seems less likely to be used for primary figures; and somehow seems more likely to be used from a [dry] brush.
  • Both inks have admirable line quality.
  • The Original has a tendency to overload the paper, so that dye not bonded to cellulose comes adrift, making it less suitable for re-working with wet media.
  • The Original has greater opacity and density, so the contrast between ink and paper is greater, which makes the line appear sharper on the page, an important consideration for taut narrow lines.
Students:
  • If using a highly absorbent paper, such as the Staples 20lb, then both inks could be used for general notes. (See Figure 4.)
Personal:
  • The Original is a keeper.
  • Some of the 2012 will be kept. (OK OK - I know that to hand-off cold leftovers is not the best way to share.)

PERFORMANCE
  • Much the same for both inks.
  • The Smear/Dry Times are a cause for concern, so I leave it to other Members to chime in on that aspect. (Some have already done so in the Review of the Original N#41.)

THE LOOK

Presence:
  • This is a primary difference: the Original is firm & inviting, the 2012 is warm & weaker.
  • Espresso vs. Roobois.
Saturation:
  • The Original has the strength to hold fast if diluted to a chosen density.
  • The 2012 has low saturation, and cannot be diluted by much without losing its bottle.
Shading:
  • The 2012 has much greater shading potential than the Original.

PAPER
  • Neither ink shows significant limitation, though I would be tempted to use a fairly absorbent paper to deal with the S/DT.
  • As the 2012 has shading potential, the use of hard/coated smooth-surface papers such as Rhodia or Clairefontaine Triomphe seems worth pursuing if one has dealt with the S/DT.

ETC.

Yickity Yackity
  • I'm not happy.
  • I am amongst those who would have paid the cost differential to keep the Original in production.
  • The OOTE series of eleven keystone Brown inks is in distress.
  • Ah kushbaby, is N41-2012 a harbinger of the Zombie Apocalypse?
= = = =

NUTS & BOLTS

Pens

Written Samples:

  • Pelikan P99 Technix + steel F nib.
  • Pilot Custom 74 + 14K № 5 SFM nib. (OoooLaLa)
  • Parker 45 + steel M nib. (Staples 20lb. & Other Stuff)
  • Sheaffer Prelude + factory stock steel Stub nib.
Lines & labels:
  • Original - Pilot kiri-same from Pilot 'Lady' + H882 g-p steel F nib.
  • 2012 - Parker Quink Blue-Black [sic] from a Pilot 78G.

______

Papers:

  • HPJ1124 24 lb. Laser Copy.
  • Rhodia.
  • G Lalo, Verge de France, white.
______

Images

  • Scans were made on an Epson V600 scanner; factory defaults were accepted.
  • Figures shown were scanned at 200 dpi & 24 bit colour.
  • To minimise variables in the presentation of images, new scans were made by placing the samples side-by-side on the scanner where possible, but if I wasn't happy with sideXside, the Adobe PhotoElements Panorama feature was used to make a composite of the new scans: Figures 2, 3, 6.
  • Scans were not adjusted post-capture, other than dumb-down by APE, Photo Bucket and IP.Board s/w.
______

Densitometer Readings
______

Fine Print
The accuracy and relevance of this Comparison depends in great part upon consistency and reliability of matériel used.
Ink does not require labelling/notice to indicate (changes in) formulation, non-hazardous ingredients, batch ID, date of manufacture, etc.
As always, YMMV, not only from materials, methods, environment, etc., but also due to differences between the stuff I used, and that you may have.
Also, I entrust readers to separate opinion from fact; to evaluate inferences and conclusions as to their merit; and to be amused by whatever tickles your fancy.


-30-


Tags: Fountain Pen Ink Review Comparison Noodler's 41 forty-one Brown bulletproof 2012 Sandy1

Edited by Sandy1, 06 February 2012 - 04:12.

The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.


#2 Sandy1

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:19

LINKS:

Ink Review: Noodler's #41 Brown - Original: http://www.fountainp...ost__p__1922093

Ink Review: Noodler's 41 - 2012: http://www.fountainp...-41-2012-brown/

The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.


#3 IWantThat

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 16:15

You should patent your reviews. They are that good :) I didn't realize the formulation of this ink had changed and was thinking of picking up a bottle. I'll look around a little harder for the 'old' formula, I think.
Tamara

#4 MJ Vesuvius

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 21:35

WOW they really are quite different. I have the original, and love it.
When it's used up I'll be on the prowl for something as deep, neutral, and water resistant ...

This is a case where the name really should have been changed...

Thanks for another useful and delightful review.

– MJ

#5 kiavonne

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 23:13

I am very, very happy that I "hoarded" four bottles of the original formula when I found out it was being changed. Thank you for your EXCELLENT reviews, I very much appreciate the work you put into them.



Somewhere along the line, I suspect you were/are a submitter to a printed periodical.

Edited by kiavonne, 05 February 2012 - 23:21.

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#6 Sandy1

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 23:39

You should patent your reviews. They are that good :) I didn't realize the formulation of this ink had changed and was thinking of picking up a bottle. I'll look around a little harder for the 'old' formula, I think.

Hi,

Thanks for the compliment!

I too am looking for the original stuff, alas no luck to date. IIRC, the original went out of production due to lack of [same-cost] source ingredients, then the 2012 was released with alternate ingredients which kept the cost consistent with the other Noodler's inks.

Bye,
S1

The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.


#7 Sandy1

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 23:50

WOW they really are quite different. I have the original, and love it.
When it's used up I'll be on the prowl for something as deep, neutral, and water resistant ...

This is a case where the name really should have been changed...

Thanks for another useful and delightful review.

– MJ

Hi,

You're welcome!

I expected a minor variation, akin to an interesting interpretation of the same musical score, not a re-scoring of the main theme.

Bye,
S1

Edited by Sandy1, 05 February 2012 - 23:55.

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#8 raging.dragon

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 03:36

I was also expecting minor changes.

To put it mildly, the 2012 variant is rather disappointing. Hopefully another worthy bulletproof (or equivalent) brown will come out before my stock of #41 is depleted.

#9 Sandy1

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:29

I was also expecting minor changes.

To put it mildly, the 2012 variant is rather disappointing. Hopefully another worthy bulletproof (or equivalent) brown will come out before my stock of #41 is depleted.

Hi,

I was not enamoured by the new stuff. It seems an odd bundle of properties, some of which I like, such as shading, others I do not care for, such as the stench.

Being relatively pale, one must resort to wetter writers and/or more absorbent papers to drive the tone down to a level suited to business, etc. Not everyone has an array of pens nor might they choose their own paper in a business environment. Yet, the Original could be altered for different roles by simple dilution - at no cost.

Bye,
S1

The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.


#10 RudyR

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 22:43

Is there any way to tell the 2012 from the original before making a purchase? Maybe some sort of item number or code?
Fountain Pen is SPY!!

#11 raging.dragon

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 23:22

Is there any way to tell the 2012 from the original before making a purchase? Maybe some sort of item number or code?


Some vendors listed them separately. With others there's probably no way to tell.

#12 Maja

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 18:19

I was also expecting minor changes.

To put it mildly, the 2012 variant is rather disappointing. Hopefully another worthy bulletproof (or equivalent) brown will come out before my stock of #41 is depleted.

I agree....I'm very disappointed in the 2012 variant. The original was one of my top 3 inks (along with PR Avacado and Noodler's Apache Sunset) :(
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#13 Silent Speaker

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 03:47

Is there any way to tell the 2012 from the original before making a purchase? Maybe some sort of item number or code?

I believe it says so on the label; something about a 2012 edition or somesuch (difficult to see if it's only a small stock picture though).

-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Since I've only ever used the new variant (in a sample) I guess that I don't suffer the same disappointment as many here who have used the original. I'll still be kicking myself that I didn't snatch up one of the last bottles that had been floating around. All gone now, I'm afraid.

IMO, and though I can't compare it personally to the original, I don't find it to be, in itself, so bad. After all, it was the only brown ink that I could find that had those specialised Noodler's bulletproof properties and I didn't want to bother with the Platinum pigmented brown (which seems too light anyway).

Still, sad about the change, but at least there's something available, and not nothing at all.

It kinda smells of a sharpie marker - not quite as strong, but a definite 'whiff' of something similar.

Thanks for the review/investigation Sandy1; meticulously great as always! :D

#14 Sandy1

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:19


snip

Since I've only ever used the new variant (in a sample) I guess that I don't suffer the same disappointment as many here who have used the original. I'll still be kicking myself that I didn't snatch up one of the last bottles that had been floating around. All gone now, I'm afraid.

IMO, and though I can't compare it personally to the original, I don't find it to be, in itself, so bad. After all, it was the only brown ink that I could find that had those specialised Noodler's bulletproof properties and I didn't want to bother with the Platinum pigmented brown (which seems too light anyway).

Still, sad about the change, but at least there's something available, and not nothing at all.

It kinda smells of a sharpie marker - not quite as strong, but a definite 'whiff' of something similar.

Thanks for the review/investigation Sandy1; meticulously great as always! :D

Hi,

You're welcome!

For the most part, I agree that N41-2012 is in itself not so bad.

I think that as consumers, we expect continual improvement - which is not always possible.

I try to clearly separate my opinion from 'fact', so I did not hide my personal opinion. So that readers can come to their own conclusions, I include oodles of written samples, and I typically respond to relevant replies.

If N41-2012 was not a sequel to the Original N#41, I like to think I would have given it much the same Review: the glass is half full (of luke warm roobois). :rolleyes:

I agree that there
had to be something better than Polar Brown, especially as the Platinum nano ink is of limited appeal.

Should I hold my breath for N41-2013?

Bye,
S1

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#15 MrsGouletPens

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 15:36


Is there any way to tell the 2012 from the original before making a purchase? Maybe some sort of item number or code?


Some vendors listed them separately. With others there's probably no way to tell.

They say 2012 on the bottle. At Goulet we only have the new - we haven't had the old version since last summer. I suspect they may be near impossible to find at this point.

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#16 Scribblesoften

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 15:58

I guess I missed out on the old #41. The 2012 #41 is one of my favorite inks. It is, as noted in the review, excellent in flexible nib pens providing interesting shading. I suspect the disappointment expressed might have been mitigated if Noodler's had named the ink something else. Naming it #41 made the comparison inevitable. Again, in it's own right the 2012 #41 is one of my favorites.

#17 Maja

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 17:46



Is there any way to tell the 2012 from the original before making a purchase? Maybe some sort of item number or code?


Some vendors listed them separately. With others there's probably no way to tell.

They say 2012 on the bottle. At Goulet we only have the new - we haven't had the old version since last summer. I suspect they may be near impossible to find at this point.

Thanks for the quick reply here (and to my email sent yesterday!), Rachel! :D
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#18 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:24

S/DT???????
Always something to learn with fountain pens.

Being more interested in shading inks, the new ink can get put in the line of future buys.

Which of the brown shading inks does it resemble?
Cafe des Iles?

Semi-flex is an “almost” flex; not a ‘flex’ nib. It is great for regular writing. It can give you some fancy; but it is not made for real fancy writing. For that get a 'flexi' or a "flex" nib.

"

 

Wider than Normal does not exist. Wider than Japanese does. Every company has it's very own standard + slop/tolerance. Developed from the users of it's pens only; not the users of other companies pens. The size you grind a nib to, is your standard only. Paper and ink matter to nib width. Thank god for 1/2 sizes or it would be boring.


#19 Scribblesoften

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:38

S/DT???????
Always something to learn with fountain pens.

Being more interested in shading inks, the new ink can get put in the line of future buys.

Which of the brown shading inks does it resemble?
Cafe des Iles?

For me in light writing flex nibs it is almost a sepia with good shading. In wet pens it is just a saturated brown. I have not used Cafe des Iles but I think the colors represenations in Sandy's review are quite accurate.

#20 Sandy1

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:54

I guess I missed out on the old #41. The 2012 #41 is one of my favorite inks. It is, as noted in the review, excellent in flexible nib pens providing interesting shading. I suspect the disappointment expressed might have been mitigated if Noodler's had named the ink something else. Naming it #41 made the comparison inevitable. Again, in it's own right the 2012 #41 is one of my favorites.

Hi,

Thanks for letting us know of your experience with the N41 - 2012!

If you are referring to my Review/s, neither the Original or current version was sampled with a flexi nib. I did use the Pilot Custom 74 with a Soft Fine-Medium (SFM) nib, which has a wee bit of line-width variation, but not in the order of a flexi nib such as the Waterman 52 1/2 V used (poorly) in some of my other Reviews.

Ah, I reckon that I would've been disappointed in any subsequent bulletproof Brown that didn't match or improve upon the original N#41, regardless of name. A rose is a rose is a rose.

I am very glad that you do like the N41 - 2012!

Bye,
S1

Edited by Sandy1, 13 February 2012 - 13:29.

The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.


#21 Sandy1

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 17:01

S/DT???????
Always something to learn with fountain pens.

Being more interested in shading inks, the new ink can get put in the line of future buys.

Which of the brown shading inks does it resemble?
Cafe des Iles?

Hi,

S/DT = Smear/Dry Times, which are included in Figure 6 with the Wet Tests.

I have not done an extensive analysis of shading characteristics of Brown inks. However, I did like the shading in Caran d'Ache Grand Canyon. (OoooLaLa!)

You may wish to view the extensive set of Sepia samples by dpritchard - he also used a flexi nib!

Bye,
S1

- - - - -

These are the few Brown inks I have reviewed:

Edited by Sandy1, 13 February 2012 - 17:19.

The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.


#22 SamCapote

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 23:17

I am very, very happy that I "hoarded" four bottles of the original formula when I found out it was being changed.


Ditto, except eight.
With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#23 dcpritch

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 13:28


I am very, very happy that I "hoarded" four bottles of the original formula when I found out it was being changed.


Ditto, except eight.


I only got three bottles of the old formula, but I probably won't live as long as you guys, so I'm not too worried about running out.

Thanks Sandy1 for the revealing comparison!
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That part which laws or kings can cause or cure.

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#24 inkstainedruth

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 19:23

Hmm. The original definitely has a richer tone to it; the 2012 version appears to have better water-resistance in its favor....
Can anyone recommend a brown that has the same depth of color and saturation as the original formulation? I hadn't been looking at brown inks -- till now..... :blink:
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#25 dcpritch

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 19:33


You may wish to view the extensive set of Sepia samples by dpritchard - he also used a flexi nib!


Hi Sandy. When I did my sepia review (Part One and Part Two), I agonized over whether to include some of my favorite brown inks, among them and near the top of the list being Noodler's #41. In the end, I decided to compare only inks that were in the sepia tones (whatever that is - seems like anything but blue could qualify!), and I ended up with 30 inks. I think it would be really interesting to see something similar with all the brown inks - say, like what wimg did not too long ago, only expanded a bit.
How small of all that human hearts endure,
That part which laws or kings can cause or cure.

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#26 Sandy1

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 20:28

Hmm. The original definitely has a richer tone to it; the 2012 version appears to have better water-resistance in its favor....
Can anyone recommend a brown that has the same depth of color and saturation as the original formulation? I hadn't been looking at brown inks -- till now..... :blink:
Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

Hi,

As mentioned & listed above, I've taken a good look at but a few Brown inks.

Off the cuff, I suggest looking at Diamine Chocolate and Private Reserve Chocolat. Certainly neither match, but they provide a starting point for your inky adventure into the Brown inks.

My Reviews are intended to support comparison of the Written Samples by carrying forward a few of the same pen+paper combos, and to avoid posting comparisons such as this. Each person can can make ad hoc comparisons through manipulation of their browser windows (tiles / panes) to display inks simultaneously on their monitor.

Bye,
S1

The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.


#27 SamCapote

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 20:37

LOL....that meant "no" to your suggestion, David.
With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

#28 Maja

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 23:58


Hmm. The original definitely has a richer tone to it; the 2012 version appears to have better water-resistance in its favor....
Can anyone recommend a brown that has the same depth of color and saturation as the original formulation? I hadn't been looking at brown inks -- till now..... :blink:
Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

Hi,

As mentioned & listed above, I've taken a good look at but a few Brown inks.

Off the cuff, I suggest looking at Diamine Chocolate and Private Reserve Chocolat. Certainly neither match, but they provide a starting point for your inky adventure into the Brown inks.

My Reviews are intended to support comparison of the Written Samples by carrying forward a few of the same pen+paper combos, and to avoid posting comparisons such as this. Each person can can make ad hoc comparisons through manipulation of their browser windows (tiles / panes) to display inks simultaneously on their monitor.

Bye,
S1

I found that PR Chocolat was a bit redder than the original Noodler's # 41 Brown.

How about Noodler's Walnut? The ink comparison tool at Gouletpens.com seems to indicate that the two are pretty similar... (to my eyes, at least :D )
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#29 Sandy1

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 15:39


snip

Thanks Sandy1 for the revealing comparison!



snip
Hi Sandy. When I did my sepia review (Part One and Part Two), I agonized over whether to include some of my favorite brown inks, among them and near the top of the list being Noodler's #41. In the end, I decided to compare only inks that were in the sepia tones (whatever that is - seems like anything but blue could qualify!), and I ended up with 30 inks. I think it would be really interesting to see something similar with all the brown inks - say, like what wimg did not too long ago, only expanded a bit.

Hi,

You're welcome!

While your amazing Sepia Series was in the works, IIRC I mentioned imposing a numeric cap of ten or so 'true' Sepia inks. I continue to be astonished at the scale of work that was posted. :clap1:

I agree that 'something similar' with all the Brown inks would be interesting indeed, and I would not dissuade one from doing so.

I think that to extend your Sepia Series to include other Brown inks has value. For such work, I believe that it is essential that the inks be prepared and presented in a way that enables comparison. So same pens, papers, imaging and person doing the work. (The method also used by Member wimg.) It was evident that Members with access to rare inks (vintage, limited production, exclusives, etc.) were more than willing to contribute - which is excellent!

Clearly, I find doing reviews more satisfying than comparisons. As discussed, my approach is quite different, choosing to review an ink prior to a ♢ possible comparison Topic or Post. As my scope is large, the scale needs to be small if a body of work for a specific use is to be completed within a satisfactory time.

Bye,
S1

Edited by Sandy1, 16 February 2012 - 15:44.

The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.


#30 dcpritch

dcpritch

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:30

Ha! You did try to help me by suggesting I limit my sepia comparison to 10 inks. If only I had listened to you! In the end, I'm glad to have compared as many inks as I did, but I sure don't think I'm up for another such project anytime soon. Right now, I'm waiting for geoduc's comparison review of dusky green inks.

Your reviews, Sandy, are the gold standard, and the first place I look when deciding on an ink. :thumbup:
How small of all that human hearts endure,
That part which laws or kings can cause or cure.

— Samuel Johnson