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Orientation Of Writing Arm And Paper


Brian C

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I had someone point out that I write "like a left handed person" even though I am right handed. I don't slant the paper and my hand comes from the right hand side of the paper essentially doing a downstroke when crossing T's. I am assuming I should slant the paper with the upper left corner coming down so that my writing hand is coming more from the bottom of the page. This would make the downstroke of the nib on the downstroke of the T. I hope this makes some sense, I wish I could post a pic. Help!

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You *should* do what works best and most comfortably for *you*. The "correct" way is simply the "by the book" way, which does work for the majority of people, but if what you do works well for you, keep doing it.

 

You will get different results from the norm when using an italic nib, though. :-)

Mike Hungerford

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One reason I chose to use a fountain pen was and is to improve my penmanship. I found that to use my pen correctly I must force myself to write a bit slower and to work to form my characters whether alpha or numeric. In searching for correct penmanship I found several books on Google books. Many of these are free down-loadable books in PDF format. Some are better than others and several I read stress posture and using arm-shoulder writing rather than hand finger motion to make your letters. There are also some videos on YouTube. Hope something may be helpful to you.

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I took a quick look at the videos and was not favorably impressed. The demonstrator rests (I might even say, anchors) the fleshy edge of her hand on the page and creates almost all of her pen movement with the fingers. This is not good. The pen hand should glide lightly on the page, the points of contact being the nib and nails of the last two fingers. This allows fluid, connected movement by the fingers, wrist, and arm. Although this is video shows almost nothing but the hand, the link below shows a much better example of the sort of blended movement you should probably want.

 

 

Rather than the videos you watched, I think a much better (more reliable) source for information on writing technique would be

 

http://www.iampeth.org

 

Their instructional materials are aimed at people interested in Copperplate and Spencerian scripts, but the fundamental principles are the same.

The liberty of the press is indeed essential to the nature of a free state; but this consists in laying no previous restraints upon publications, and not in freedom from censure for criminal matter when published. Every freeman has an undoubted right to lay what sentiments he pleases before the public; to forbid this, is to destroy the freedom of the press; but if he publishes what is improper, mischievous or illegal, he must take the consequence of his own temerity. (4 Bl. Com. 151, 152.) Blackstone's Commentaries

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Regarding your original (implied question), let me offer you a general description of proper (typical, usual, etc.) posture, arm position, and paper position. This description generally applies to normal and italic nibs, and to flexible pens (nibs) in oblique holders.

 

Sit more or less upright, with your hips and shoulders parallel to the desk. Do not hunch over the desk. (I suspect this may be part of your problem.) Adjust your chair height until the desk is a few inches lower than the point of your elbow. The paper should be positioned in front of your navel, far enough away that if you place your hand flat in the middle of the page, your forearm would cross the desk at a 45 degree angle. Your hand should be in line with your forearm, your wrist cocked neither right nor left. The writing line is parallel to the desk front.

 

If at all possible, wear a long-sleeved shirt when writing. (I'm serious. Your arm needs to be able to slide on the desk.) Lean over just enough for the upper part of your fore-arm (the muscle just below the elbow) to rest lightly on the desk. Grasp the pen (read the tripod grip discussions in the penmanship forum for proper grip). There will be four points of light contact with the desk: your fore-arm muscle, the nib, and the nails of the last two fingers. (Of the four, the most pressure will be on the forearm. Notice, a fair amount of arm movement is possible without the forearm moving on the desk.) The heel of the hand may brush the desk (and page), but the hand really glides on the two fingernails.

 

That's pretty much it. A fair amount of variation is possible to accommodate differences in physical make-up or for particular scripts, but, as I said, these are general guidelines and represent a good starting point. The rest is getting used to a new position (which doesn't really take all that long).

Edited by Mickey

The liberty of the press is indeed essential to the nature of a free state; but this consists in laying no previous restraints upon publications, and not in freedom from censure for criminal matter when published. Every freeman has an undoubted right to lay what sentiments he pleases before the public; to forbid this, is to destroy the freedom of the press; but if he publishes what is improper, mischievous or illegal, he must take the consequence of his own temerity. (4 Bl. Com. 151, 152.) Blackstone's Commentaries

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Thank you for pointing this out!

 

Advice like this is really very welcome for people like me who are trying to improve their handwriting. In my recent sessions I have been trying to use a 'lighter touch' so to speak. Initially, my writing got a lot shakier and I could only write very large letters this way, but slowly there seems to be improvement.

 

-- Patrick

 

I took a quick look at the videos and was not favorably impressed. The demonstrator rests (I might even say, anchors) the fleshy edge of her hand on the page and creates almost all of her pen movement with the fingers. This is not good. The pen hand should glide lightly on the page, the points of contact being the nib and nails of the last two fingers. This allows fluid, connected movement by the fingers, wrist, and arm. Although this is video shows almost nothing but the hand, the link below shows a much better example of the sort of blended movement you should probably want.

 

 

Rather than the videos you watched, I think a much better (more reliable) source for information on writing technique would be

 

http://www.iampeth.org

 

Their instructional materials are aimed at people interested in Copperplate and Spencerian scripts, but the fundamental principles are the same.

journaling / tinkering with pens / sailing / photography / software development

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Thanks everyone. I have begun to use these more correct methods for short periods. It's beginning to feel less alien.

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The demonstrator rests (I might even say, anchors) the fleshy edge of her hand on the page and creates almost all of her pen movement with the fingers. This is not good. The pen hand should glide lightly on the page, the points of contact being the nib and nails of the last two fingers.

 

This is certainly one accepted view of how to approach handwriting, but it is by no means the only way.

 

I tend to favour a different approach.

 

These quotes are by two respected calligraphers via the IAMPETH site and they are referring specificaly to Copperplate handwriting.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Copperplatequotes700.jpg

 

Enjoy your writing experience and don't get too hung up on the technicalities. What matters, is how it looks on the page, not how you got there.

 

caliken

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The demonstrator rests (I might even say, anchors) the fleshy edge of her hand on the page and creates almost all of her pen movement with the fingers. This is not good. The pen hand should glide lightly on the page, the points of contact being the nib and nails of the last two fingers.

 

This is certainly one accepted view of how to approach handwriting, but it is by no means the only way.

 

I tend to favour a different approach.

 

These quotes are by two respected calligraphers via the IAMPETH site and they are referring specificaly to Copperplate handwriting.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Copperplatequotes700.jpg

 

Enjoy your writing experience and don't get too hung up on the technicalities. What matters, is how it looks on the page, not how you got there.

 

caliken

 

Ken,

 

Those two quotes are really in response to adherents of an arm-only approach to penmanship. The two posts I made referred to blended use of fingers, hand, and arm. Unless I am misinterpreting your earlier posts, this is the approach you employ, transparently (i.e., the habit is ingrained) using whichever muscles are appropriate to the size of letter detail. This, I believe, is the proper context for the quotes from Zaner and Brown.

 

As for my criticism of the demonstration. I stand by it, as anyone with arthritis (or other hand afflictions) in their family would. The demonstrated technique removes, blocks, or decouples the possible use of larger muscles. My grandmother, who suffered from arthritis, would not have been able to write at all in the last 2 decades of her life if she written as demonstrated. She persisted in her correspondence into her 90th year, however, writing in the Spencerian style she'd been taught in the 1870s, though the letters became increasingly large and spidery as she gradually lost finger strength and flexibility.

The liberty of the press is indeed essential to the nature of a free state; but this consists in laying no previous restraints upon publications, and not in freedom from censure for criminal matter when published. Every freeman has an undoubted right to lay what sentiments he pleases before the public; to forbid this, is to destroy the freedom of the press; but if he publishes what is improper, mischievous or illegal, he must take the consequence of his own temerity. (4 Bl. Com. 151, 152.) Blackstone's Commentaries

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Mickey,

 

I think that we're basically in agreement here. I do believe in an instinctive balance between hand, arm and fingers, depending on the size of the lettering and I deliberately try not to think about this as I feel that any outside concentration might impinge on my writing.

 

You have to remember that the 'muscular movement' writing discipline (which, I accept, may well be the best method) comes from the Spencer/Palmer tradition which is entirely American and was virtually unknown elswhere - as far as I know.

 

Certainly, when I was taught how to write in the 1940s in the UK, we were shown how to hold the pen and that was about all. We were taught the Vere Foster Civil Service Script which was a more upright derivitive of Copperplate using flexible dip nibs, right from the start.

 

As a footnote, you may to interested to learn that the calligrapher Tom Gourdie did some of his best work sitting in an armchair in front of the TV with his board resting on his knees!

 

Ken

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Mickey,

 

I think that we're basically in agreement here. I do believe in an instinctive balance between hand, arm and fingers, depending on the size of the lettering and I deliberately try not to think about this as I feel that any outside concentration might impinge on my writing.

 

Absolutely. I just wanted to make sure no one thought otherwise. My experience with school writing programs (in the 50s) seems similar to yours, though I can't remember anyone telling me how to hold the pen. That I had to figure out when I got my first FP at age 10.

You have to remember that the 'muscular movement' writing discipline (which, I accept, may well be the best method) comes from the Spencer/Palmer tradition which is entirely American and was virtually unknown elswhere - as far as I know.

 

I'm not sure of this, but I suspect the 'muscular movement' shtick was mostly about getting the arm and shoulder involved, not using them exclusively. Many of the kids who used the Spencer Bros. copy books were more familiar with farming implements than writing instruments.

 

The clip I linked to early, showing Michael Sull (respected expert on and conservator of the Spencerian tradition), seems to show blended movement. The Dal Tysdal clip linked below, shows much quieter fingers while doing the most amazing things with a flexible pen.

 

 

 

As a footnote, you may to interested to learn that the calligrapher Tom Gourdie did some of his best work sitting in an armchair in front of the TV with his board resting on his knees!

 

Ken

 

And I suspect that you, writing on a scone in the backseat of London cab on Boxing Day, could out do my best efforts. But I keep trying.

The liberty of the press is indeed essential to the nature of a free state; but this consists in laying no previous restraints upon publications, and not in freedom from censure for criminal matter when published. Every freeman has an undoubted right to lay what sentiments he pleases before the public; to forbid this, is to destroy the freedom of the press; but if he publishes what is improper, mischievous or illegal, he must take the consequence of his own temerity. (4 Bl. Com. 151, 152.) Blackstone's Commentaries

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The English writing master Joseph Carstairs was very influential in popularizing arm movement (he called it 'perpendicular movement'). He influenced the American writing master Benjamin Franklin Foster who published a book which explicitly billed itself as being a development of Carstair's system, and Foster in turn influenced people in Britain and America, including Platt Spencer.

 

Foster wrote of Carstair's system:

 

Mr Carstairs published a work on the Art of Writing which contains the principles of his method of teaching. It is no small proof of the estimation in which this system is held in England that this work has passed through six editions. It is the sixth edition published in 1828 which has been used in the compilation of this treatise.

 

But the success of this System has not been confined to England alone It was first taught in France by one who had received his instruction from Car stairs. [...] upwards of twenty editions of works all based upon the System of Carstairs have been published in France since 1825

 

That is from Practical penmanship, being a development of the Carstairian system. (Interestingly, there is a handwritten note on one of the pages in that copy indicating that it was a gift to Geo. H. Shattuck, who was one of the authors of 'The Payson, Dunton, & Scribner Manual of Penmanship' which was a popular contemporary/competitor of the Spencerian publications.)

 

Here we can see how Carstairs, in 'Tachygraphy, or The flying pen' published in 1815, advocated the use of arm movement:

 

The first thing that must be attended to by those who are desirous to gain the right command of the Pen which every one ought to endeavour to accomplish will be to have the free and easy movement of the arm and at the same time to take peculiar care to sit in a right posture.

 

The best position is to sit perfectly upright. Those who have a desire to lean forward which I do not at all recommend ought to lean entirely on the left arm and to keep the right arm light and at full liberty so as to move in any direction at pleasure on any part of the paper.

 

Keep the third and fourth fingers under the hand so as to run on the surface of the nails and this will be found to assist the movement more than by leaning entirely on the end of the little finger from the smoothness of the Hails and also at the same time observe to keep the wrist laying parallel with the surface of the Table or Desk.

 

[...] If the hands varies in its position while writing the point of the pen must evidently be changed in position and the strokes made by the pen cannot be uniform with each other nor all equally slanting. [...] The pen ought to point exactly to the shoulder and to be held so as to come the second and third joint of the finger the extremity of the thumb to kept directly opposite the first joint of fore finger

 

He does later go on to say that you can use some finger movement, but in conjunction with arm movement:

 

The pliable motion of the fingers may be used throughout the whole of the lessons but not without the free movement of the arm at the same time

 

(Foster also stated that finger movement should be avoided till you are thoroughly practised with arm movement and after may be used in conjunction with it)

 

Here is one of the plates from Carstair's book, showing an exercise:

 

http://i.imgur.com/6v4e3.jpg

 

The accompanying text:

 

In writing the m's in this plate, the learner must bear the arm up about two inches above the table or desk, and move the whole arm up and down the paper resting on the surface of the nails of the third and fourth fingers. Take a pen without any ink in it and trace the m's on the plate several times over as quick as possible, and by this means the perpendicular movement which this method of writing requires, will be sooner acquired than by imitation, observing at the same time that the pen is not to be taken of in the whole page.

 

Be particular to make every turn at the bottom sharp except the last turn of the m which must be round, observe to make the top turn also round when imitated and written with ink. When this plate can be imitated correctly and can be performed with ease, and with great speed, words may be written so large 'as to fill up the first line and continue writing the words less in each succeeding line observing to repeat as much of the word as can be got in a line until they become as small as the last line of m's in the plate

 

The book is here:

 

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA46&dq=inauthor:%22Joseph+Carstairs%22&id=lGsUAAAAQAAJ#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Unfortunately many of the plates seem to have been fold out ones, so they were not properly scanned, but more of the ones from Foster's book were done and some of them are quite amazing exercises:

 

http://i.imgur.com/g89ql.jpg

 

To be done with your arm off the table.

 

Because handwriting seems to reflect general trends more than individual invention I find it hard to believe that 'perpendicular movement' was invented by Carstairs, though obviously he was successful in promoting a system which used it.

Edited by Columba Livia
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Gang busters! Columba Livia. Great stuff. Thanks.

 

Next topic?

The liberty of the press is indeed essential to the nature of a free state; but this consists in laying no previous restraints upon publications, and not in freedom from censure for criminal matter when published. Every freeman has an undoubted right to lay what sentiments he pleases before the public; to forbid this, is to destroy the freedom of the press; but if he publishes what is improper, mischievous or illegal, he must take the consequence of his own temerity. (4 Bl. Com. 151, 152.) Blackstone's Commentaries

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how corrupt is it to write like a ballpoint but at a lower angle? :P

 

I've found this to be something that i do with the lamy safari, just because parallel positioning offers no benefits, yet i do slide my arm and wrist before fingers, it makes it so much smoother and easier on the hand =)

 

(not cursive nor flex nor any unique factorials come into play)

Edited by Watercycle
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  • 2 weeks later...

 

You have to remember that the 'muscular movement' writing discipline (which, I accept, may well be the best method) comes from the Spencer/Palmer tradition which is entirely American and was virtually unknown elswhere - as far as I know.

 

 

Last night, while practicing Spencerian penmanship, I may have discovered the reason the American pen tradition stressed whole arm movement. It is exceedingly difficult to produce hairline down strokes relying primarily on the finger movements. Shades are relatively rare in Spencerian (if considerably more dramatic) and the majority of down strokes are not shaded. This is in marked contrast to Copperplate, where most down strokes are shaded. Take the lowercase Spencerian "h" as an example. The first down stroke is properly not shaded, yet using the fingers only (or dominantly) this is nearly impossible to achieve by us mere mortals. I tried several lines of "h"s last night (with a Gillott 303) relying mostly on finger movements and succeeded only rarely. However, pulling the strokes from the shoulder, with the hand quiet, mostly produced acceptably thin marks.

The liberty of the press is indeed essential to the nature of a free state; but this consists in laying no previous restraints upon publications, and not in freedom from censure for criminal matter when published. Every freeman has an undoubted right to lay what sentiments he pleases before the public; to forbid this, is to destroy the freedom of the press; but if he publishes what is improper, mischievous or illegal, he must take the consequence of his own temerity. (4 Bl. Com. 151, 152.) Blackstone's Commentaries

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