Blue/black And Iron Galls?

[Robinhood]

I just had a quick question, are all blue black inks iron gall? I am a little worried using such inks in some of my pens, but I really liked the classic look of a blue black. Are there any non-iron gall inks that you would recommend? Should I even be worried about iron gall inks?

 

Thanks

[koa]

No, and no. Iron gall has no color of itself. Dyes are added so you can see what you are writing. But once the iron gall ink is exposed to air, it will become black. So there are blue-black iron galls, and other colors (see R&K Scabiosa), but not all blue-blacks are iron gall. In fact, few of them are! Lamy, MB, and Diamine Registar's are about it. (R&K's Salix is more of a just blue iron gall, from my experience of it.)

 

Don't worry about iron gall inks from major manufacturers, they are safe for fountain pens. Careful with homemade stuff, though, it can be quite acidic.

[wallylynn]

Can I ask how you learned of iron gall? Why are you concerned?

 

Most blue-blacks are not iron-gall. Originally, blue-black meant blue-then-black. The only way to get that traditional blue-then-black look is with iron-gall.

 

All other blue-blacks are just dark blue (e.g. navy blue, royal blue, etc). But maybe you just want a dark blue. Noodler's has some replicas of some old dark blue ("blue-black") inks such as Manhattan Blue, Ellis Island Blue.

[wallylynn]

Careful with homemade stuff, though, it can be quite acidic.

 

Why is it everyone dwells on the acidity of i-g inks? Other well regarded and oft recommended inks are quite acidic but its pH isn't ever brought up or thought about.

 

There are other peculiarities of i-g inks that are more important than acidity. Homemade inks, as an example, would contain real galls. Galls are from trees. Mold and others fungi like to eat dead trees. They'll make a home in your pen and ink bottle.

 

Homemade ink may also contain gum arabic. Not water soluble. Clogs pens.

[Robinhood]

Can I ask how you learned of iron gall? Why are you concerned?

 

Most blue-blacks are not iron-gall. Originally, blue-black meant blue-then-black. The only way to get that traditional blue-then-black look is with iron-gall.

 

All other blue-blacks are just dark blue (e.g. navy blue, royal blue, etc). But maybe you just want a dark blue. Noodler's has some replicas of some old dark blue ("blue-black") inks such as Manhattan Blue, Ellis Island Blue.

 

Initially I had heard about iron gall inks while reading an article on them for a Chemistry class. It peaked my interest and I looked into some blue black iron galls, like Lamy for example. It's a modern iron gall, correct? I had read that iron galls can damage pens, but I wasn't sure if the new iron galls would be as damaging . I figured I'd ask to clarify things a bit. I'm new to all of these inks and would hate to cut myself off from a color just because I misunderstood the properties. Thanks for the recommendations, I'll have to look into those.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Robinhood

[koa]

Careful with homemade stuff, though, it can be quite acidic.

 

Why is it everyone dwells on the acidity of i-g inks? Other well regarded and oft recommended inks are quite acidic but its pH isn't ever brought up or thought about.

_Can_ be, not necessarily. One of the concerns of scholars of ancient texts written in iron gall is that the ink can dissolve the paper, over centuries. Not a problem for most of us, unless we are writing for future generations. The acidity of wood-pulp papers is equally a problem for more recent texts.

There are other peculiarities of i-g inks that are more important than acidity. Homemade inks, as an example, would contain real galls. Galls are from trees. Mold and others fungi like to eat dead trees. They'll make a home in your pen and ink bottle.

Yes, quite so. but there are several members of FPN who have been experimenting with old formulas, or recipes that only use pure chemicals, including hydrochloric acid. A search of the forum should give lots of information.

Homemade ink may also contain gum arabic. Not water soluble. Clogs pens.

Again, exactly! This is a good additive for use with dip pens, but not appropriate for fountain pens. But I don't think our OP was asking about homemade inks, and I am sorry I brought it up. The blue-blacks that are iron gall (and I love that specification that these start out blue and then darken to black, rather than just being a dark blue), produced by major ink makers are quite safe, and fun and water-resistant as well.

[Robinhood]

Again, exactly! This is a good additive for use with dip pens, but not appropriate for fountain pens. But I don't think our OP was asking about homemade inks, and I am sorry I brought it up. The blue-blacks that are iron gall (and I love that specification that these start out blue and then darken to black, rather than just being a dark blue), produced by major ink makers are quite safe, and fun and water-resistant as well.

 

 

Actually thank you for bringing it up, I never considered trying to make my own ink, but I'll have to look into that as well. I have a dip pen set I bought a while ago at a local store and it would be fun to try it out with that.

[Gobblecup]

Most iron gall inks made for fountain pens should be perfectly safe, I use them quite often. Not all are blue-black, as has been duly noted, although I would say it is tough to find other colours than a blue-then-black these days. In fact I'm only aware of Rohrer Und Klingner's Scabiosa and Salix as non-blue-black iron gall inks.

 

As always, it is good to know the dangers of using any inks, and it's always up to your own judgement as to what is acceptable in your own pens. But from my experience, a well behaved iron-gall ink is perfectly safe and great fun!

[lovemy51]

Originally, blue-black meant blue-then-black

 

oooooh....

[pharmacist]

Nonsense:

 

gum arabic is perfectly water soluble, but it increases surface tension much. Beneficial for dip pens, but not for fountain pens.

 

I make my own iron gall ink based on purifed chemicals and yes: corrosive hydrochloric acid, but strongely diluted. I use it in my cheap fountain pens with ordinary stainless steel nibs and after more than 2 years, no sign of clogging or corrosion. If your FP has a gold or platinum alloy nib, don't be afraid at all.

 

Just a note about hydrochloric acid: it is actually a gas, dissolved in water. When applied on paper, the paper will evaporate, along with very minute amount of hydrochloric acid. There are some vintage inks made with sulfuric acid and this tends to concentrate on the paper and these inks are more tricky on the long term for your paper surface.

[The Good Captain]

I use Pelikan 4001 blue-black which is supposed to have 'some' iron-gall content and Lamy blue-black, which is iron-gall in its bottle form but is rumoured to be being sold in its non-gall cartridge composition, in both bottle and cartridge. I've not tried Diamine Registrar's ink which is true iron-gall yet as I haven't worked out which pen to use.

The two I do use tend to be dry inks but are rather nice and 'old-looking' right from the start.

[mstone]

Careful with homemade stuff, though, it can be quite acidic.

 

Why is it everyone dwells on the acidity of i-g inks? Other well regarded and oft recommended inks are quite acidic but its pH isn't ever brought up or thought about.

 

Yes, the really big problem is that if the ink is allowed to dry in the pen it will form insoluble precipitates that are a real bear to clean out of the pen. (Similar to the nano-pigment inks.) If you make sure the pen never dries out this isn't an issue, but if you use the pen infrequently this might not be the right ink for you.

[wallylynn]

Nonsense:

 

gum arabic is perfectly water soluble, but it increases surface tension much. Beneficial for dip pens, but not for fountain pens.

Thanks for the correction. Oddly wikipedia says gum arabic reduces surface tension. I don't know and I don't want to spread misinformation.

 

I'll have to research for that additive I was thinking of. (shellac, perhaps.)

 

Anyways, of the 3 that I have:

Lamy - too pale for me. Maybe I have a bad, diluted bottle. Other reviews praise it.

Montblanc - very nice. Wet, smooth, starts dark (more of a violet than blue) and turns very dark.

Diamine (Chesterfield) - the blue-black. A bit light when writing, but days later has good contrast.

[pharmacist]

I can hardly believe that gum arabic lowers surface tension. It is a thickener and if it lowers surface tension, I would aspect the ink will flow much faster from a pen. And why is it put in dip pen ink : just to get it stick longer on the pen nib ? I could be wrong: some people add dish washer to their inks, so they will flow easier from dry writing fountain pen nibs. So according to this principe adding gum arabic to fountain pen ink will make it flow better....from my experience this is the contrary.

[wallylynn]

I can hardly believe that gum arabic lowers surface tension. It is a thickener and if it lowers surface tension, I would aspect the ink will flow much faster from a pen. And why is it put in dip pen ink : just to get it stick longer on the pen nib ? I could be wrong: some people add dish washer to their inks, so they will flow easier from dry writing fountain pen nibs. So according to this principe adding gum arabic to fountain pen ink will make it flow better....from my experience this is the contrary.

As a purely speculative guess: it's possible to do both. A drop of dish soap on water will break the surface tension. Lots of dish soap will increase the viscosity. I'd test, but I don't have gum arabic.