Possible To Analyze Old Fw Ink And Deduce Recipe?

[InkDog]

Sorry, I do tend to be blunt, but I find the older I get, the less patience I have for skirting around issues or not doing things the absolute best one can, and I expect that from others, my mistake. I would be a hard guy to work for, and I know a few others in related to my business who make excellent products with high standards and drive their employees nuts ;-) such is the curse of perfectionism....

 

$50,000 seems quite excessive, I can get a metals lab spectrum analysis done for $40, yet was quoted up to $3,000 for the exact same job. I think some of these companies are lagging behind the fact that the gear is getting cheaper, yet they charge the same prices, aimed at milking rich corporations. I would think someone with long experience in the ink business could tell by smelling a bottle of original FW what its base is and probably wouldn't be a large effort to identify its components.

 

God Bless Daler Rowney's chemist for paying attention to the facts I presented that FW was something special enough to bring back as a superior art product. I hope its not too long before we all can buy it so you can experience it in your own pens if you have a need for a waterproof india that won't kill your pen. Anyway, yes I am demanding of other people, demanding excellence and interest in their craft and there are so few out there who walk their talk. I apologize for ruffling your feathers Sam but I'm not the bad guy you think I am, not demeaning Noodler's, but it still amazes me a special ink proven for 40 years didn't interest him....just because I shouted this stuff is GOOD? Peace.....

OK, Elwood, my boots are off and slippers on ;-) The bottom line is I wanted my FW ink back!!!!! and did all I could to see if someone could make it again and I was just lucky someone listened is all. DR is lucky to have their head chemist who went the extra steps to see what I was talking about, and you helped put this across too, let's PRAY this ink makes it to market and is around another fourty years, YES!!!!

 

Ekwiat, yes I saw the Zim correspondence materials reproduced by the animation guys, they were $250 for two books, I emailed to see if they were going to do another run and no reply. Thats alot of money but maybe I can find someone selling their copy off, or even an original set eventually. Zim and all those guys, judging by my book and course collections used Gillott nibs, 170, 290, 303, 404. 170 was real popular. Some of the Esterbrook nibs are mentioned in later books and courses. I could find no information on what Charles Dana Gibson used, it must have been some kind of crowquill judging by the fat and thin strokes, wish someone knew. I read somewhere that Flagg used a 290 if I remember right. Ken Muse had an excellent book showing what many of the later period cartoonist's used for pens and lettering, a real sleeper book of the modern stuff I got.

[SamCapote]

I don't think its that easy. You would have to be an ink maker first of all, and an analysis is only going to show chemical elements, not what ingredients were used or how they were mixed. There are many kinds of different inks, old FW was unique, in my 40 years as an artist I've never seen another ink like it. I wish I knew how it was made and what truly set it apart from everything else.

 

As I stated in the beginning of this thread, what you posted above is "the rub" as it were with this project. You were not offering "black GOLD" to an boutique inkmaker, you were offering a risky investment to a poorly capitalized company. Without a copy of the formulation or a former employee to help with the basic components, it could easily cost a company tens of thousands of dollars to get a full analysis of your old bottle, sufficiently detailed that they could re-create the ink. This is assuming that: 1.) your bottle is representative of the ideal/actual formulation and 2.) the original components are still available/permissible. Otherwise, the interested company ends up with a $50,000 report that just gathers dust in the R&D archives.

 

Hence, I suggested that you collect signatures and statements from prominent artists and try to get a well capitalized company onboard.

 

Luckily, it turns out that contrary to initial reports, the original manufacturer had both the formulation and an interest in reviving the ink. A lucky break!

 

I guess I need to stop saying I am going to bow out of this conversation.

 

What Chemyst said is the reality. Nothing about how things would need to really work ever seemed to sink in with Inkdog. Interestingly enough, Nathan had quite a good awareness of the basics of that FW ink, and had some of it...as he has been exploring, collecting, researching, and speaking with experts about inks and fountain pens around the world since he was a child. Among his many endearing idiosyncrasies, he does not communicate effectively (if at all) by email, or any of the instant messaging modalities. So if one is interested in developing a working relationship with him, they need to adapt to his reality, not the other way around. He makes what he wants to make, and like most people, does not respond to demeaning and demanding, selfish people who expect him to stand on his head and spit nickels because they know what he should be doing for them. There is also a difference between enrolling someone in a cause that you are passionate about, and then being outright insulting and demanding. He made White Peacock for a specific purpose, and in response to a respectful request.

 

Hi, Sam. I'm a mild-mannered person by nature, so when these kind of spats crop up in these forums, I feel very uncomfortable. You and InkDog are both interested in ink, paper and pens or you wouldn't be here, even though you have very different natures. I've never met InkDog, but we've been corresponding since not too long before this thread began via my Drawger Blog (because of FW Ink, I believe) and I can vouch for his passion for whatever he decides to dig into. And I believe him to be a honest and good person, although he's sometimes more bluntly direct than might be good for him in term of relationships. I can testify to his gift as a craftsman/artist, because I have a set of his Strat pickups and they are amazing. Friends who are even more rabid about electric guitar tone than most think his pickups are among the best out there and rival the coveted vintage single-coils. Maybe it takes an eccentric personality to even begin to make something so specialized as custom made guitar parts, because there's rarely any big money to be head in hand-crafted anything. It's done to try to make a few bucks, but it's mostly a love for the thing. Which is what you are saying about Nathan. Granted InkDog tends to wear heavy boots when entering the room and if the room is a library (Fountain Pen Network seems a little like that at times), the clomping is damned annoying. But just as you ask him to allow for Nathan's shy and easy way of dealing with things, perhaps it would be beneficial if you make an allowance for InkDog's chunky boots.

 

I said, and must say again, that if it weren't for InkDog's full-bore tenacity, I wouldn't be drawing right now with this marvelous recreation of the great old FW Steig-era ink. And, if we are all lucky, the ink will become available to all. You can tell me to butt out, but I'm thinking it might be healthier for you both and for the forum if you two mutts could make some kind of peace. It would certainly make me more comfortable.

 

-Elwood

 

Elwood, it sounds like you are right on the money, and I will apologize for my comments. I do admire InkDog's dedication and tenacity, and have said he should be proud of getting this ink from FW's successor--to the benefit of all artists such as yourself. I sincerely mean that and congratulate him on getting what he wants. My problem was his taking down Nathan in the process like he had a right to demand what he wanted. I am intensely loyal to my friends, and will defend them passionately when they are maligned publicly, which is what I have been doing in this thread, and which I should have instead reported for moderation, since there is a clear posted warning in BOLD RED BANNER above this forum that has been repeatedly violated. That was my mistake not to let moderators handle this, but I am now explaining my posts as an expression of loyalty, and will ask mods to oversee this thread going forward, and delete any comments they see fit.

 

 

Very best regards to each of you.

[InkDog]

[KCat]

I think everyone is trying to get back on track here so I'll leave this open as long as we stay on track with the original discussion of FW and DR.

[ekwiat]

There seem to be alot of Noodle pens on Amazon, is this the one you got:

http://www.amazon.co...17005646&sr=8-6

Is it actually called a Flex? I don't see anything about flexible nibs, I don't think mine had a piston fill, you just filled the barrel of the pen, like the old dropper fill pens, once the barrel cracked it would have leaked ink everywhere so trashed it.

 

I found the auction where I got a free pen, is this the same pen?

http://www.ebay.com/...=item588cc3235a

 

I see alot of these pens but no mention of it being a flex nib:

http://www.ebay.com/...=item5ae23e04ec

 

Those do not look like the Noodler Flex Nib pens. There are discussions and some reviews on the Fountain Pen Network or you can Google Noodler Flex Pens for information. There are also some Youtube videos about the pens and adjusting the nib and feed to suit your needs. <

>

 

I would like to hear how your sample of the re-manufactured FW ink works in one. I think I mentioned that in October more pens are said to be coming out.

[Pelikan_120]

Thanks KCat and to all who've stepped up and made amends. Nothing wrong with a little spunky back and forth, but I'm happy that we can now move forward and share our love of these grand old tools with the burden of rancor. I fully embrace the digital stuff of today, but I'm an old guy and I grew up with and have used the old analog stuff. And when I use them, I feel a direct connection to some of the greatest pen wielders in history, from Da Vinci's stunning sketches to John Hancock's lyrical calligraphy and from Billy DeBeck's Barney Google to Bill Watterson’s Calvin and Hobbes. Pen enthusiasts revel in the beauty of those classic tools and we are lucky to find others like the members of this forum with whom we can share our love if it all.

 

Peace and Good Wishes,

-Elwood

[ekwiat]

It is nice to be among others who can get goose-pimples talking about ink on paper and how to get it there!

[Pelikan_120]

I mentioned earlier that I love the old tools used by the old masters of line, but I also embrace the new digital tools. Here's a piece I did a couple of years ago using my old FW ink. It's done in what I refer to as my "New" Style. I create these pieces this way:

 

I first ink-in the art with a Pelikan fountain pen and FW ink on Arches Watercolor paper. I then scan the B&W line art into Photoshop where I create layers. On top, I have the line art with no background--much like an animator's cel. Then I create additional layers under that layer and with enlarged color watercolor swatches (saved from other jobs, which I scan just for this purpose). On this illustration, I scanned one of my watercolor tubes (all at 300 dpi) to add to the drawing. I like the mix of photographic elements, enlarged watercolor swatches and my usual ink line. I get most excited about jobs these days when I can use this approach.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Pelikan_120

[Pelikan_120]

I mentioned earlier that I love the old tools used by the old masters of line, but I also embrace the new digital tools. Here's a piece I did a couple of years ago using my old FW ink. It's done in what I refer to as my "New" Style. I create these pieces this way:

 

I first ink-in the art with a Pelikan fountain pen and FW ink on Arches Watercolor paper. I then scan the B&W line art into Photoshop where I create layers. On top, I have the line art with no background--much like an animator's cel. Then I create additional layers under that layer and with enlarged color watercolor swatches (saved from other jobs, which I scan just for this purpose). On this illustration, I scanned one of my watercolor tubes (all at 300 dpi) to add to the drawing. I like the mix of photographic elements, enlarged watercolor swatches and my usual ink line. I get most excited about jobs these days when I can use this approach.

 

I wanted this to be large so you can see detail, but did I make it too big? Looks awfully jumbo.

[InkDog]

I think I see Jesus' face in there, was that intentional? Cool piece, Elwood. I think I am devolving the older I get, I've been doing practically nothing except working in photoshop since it first came out and ran it on a Mac Plus if you can believe that, (250K memory) and probably one of the first to do CD album packing seps on a Mac, living only half an hour away from Apple Land back in the early 80's. So its nice to do actual ink on paper, cartooning I never got to do enough of since my bread and butter was design with not alot of illustration jobs. I think I finally found MY nib, the Hunt 108 crowquill a couple days ago, amongst the huge selection of points I've gathered to date. Its like a miniature brush and I can control it without having to draw real big like they did in days of old. Massive thicks and thins, what a jewel this nib is.

 

I do like photoshop for coloring since you can easily change the color look and keep it all layered etc. It does bug me that photoshop gets overused in comics, I saw a Peanuts Classic toon in sunday's paper and they just HAD to put a photoshop blend in the background for the sky, it just looks wrong and your eye goes to the color instead of the characters. I bought the DC Comics Guide to Coloring and Lettering, now there's a book that shows masterful use of photoshop for coloring, a great book, incredible art, but I just don't see that level of work on the newstands, overuse of the gradient tool etc. and poor use of typeset lettering, you just don't know where to look in a panel things are way overdone. Computer set lettering looks cold.

 

You can do cool things in photoshop, creative use of "add noise" can make flat colors look like old litho print, the blending methods can give cool looks, I did art for 30 years with photoshop so know it well, tho I don't have or keep up with the newer versions, wife does for her web design work, I'm glad to be out of the commercial world, 35 years of clients was enough. So I bury myself in nibs and india ink and bristol every nite for an hour or so and all my vintage instruction books and want to see how good at this I can get. Born 100 years too late maybe?

Edited September 27, 2011 by InkDog

[SamCapote]

Elwood that image in post #248 is unbelievably spectacular. I have not seen all your work, but that is the most fabulous I have seen so far. I bet the original is amazing.

[Pelikan_120]

Thanks, Sam, I appreciate it. Since it's a merging of elements in Photoshop, there's no original except for the ink line version I'll post that if I can find it, so you can see it naked.

[Pelikan_120]

Here's a glimpse of my process on that job. First I do a sketch and then ink it in (final inking shown) and then I scan it and import it into Photoshop. All tradition tools of yore. Then in Photoshop I add color my scanned watercolor swatches in layers, move then around under the line layer and trim them if necessary. I then add another layer of larger watercolor wash that I did, modify the color if necessary and make a 300 dpi JPEG for the client. That's all folks!

[Pelikan_120]

Oops, I just saw it here and realized that, on this one, I used a scan of old paper for the background, not one of my big background watercolor washes.

[InkDog]

New FW will work as well in any fountain pen as it does in my tests. So if the Noodlers pens have problems its not going to fix them. The only pen I had a problem was an Osmiroid piston filler and it wasn't from the ink, those pens don't hold hardly any ink at all so if they sit they dry up easily, a simple flush with water and refill is all those need if you neglect them. Once the ink becomes available it will replace probably all my inks, one of the best for both dip and fountain pens hands down.

 

OK, I watched the flex pen video, I think the lack of a vent hole in the nib is causing problems maybe, I think I would see if any dip pen nibs will fit the feed, it'd be worth buying one to see if that could work. Ackerman makes pens along that idea but his previous feeds were made of resin epoxy and it would get sticky and interact with the ink, never could get his pens to work right, he is trying to correct this recently.

Edited September 28, 2011 by InkDog

[ekwiat]

Just a side note to the ink discussion. I just received an email about an order for Platinum Carbon ink I have had with Swisher Pens for a long time, "We apologize, but we are unable to complete this order. No charges made to your account. Swisher Pens is no longer in business." I always got good service from them. I hope the market for new inks, etc. will stay strong for others and I wish the folks at Swisher well.

[InkDog]

Sorry to see Swisher pens disappear, never used them but had a pleasant email exchange with its owner in the FW revival hunt.

 

Update on the new FW/Steig ink. DR ran a second test batch and needs to do more work on getting a stable recipe and more testing on shelf stability. So, I am guessing we won't see this ink til probably middle of next year. Their dedication to quality is impressive to say the least. When its finally released it will be well tested and ready for market.

 

In response to whether this ink is good for brush work the answer is yes. I made a test using a Q-tip and a batch of popular inks some the comic book inkers use alot. The Steig ink went head to head with Dr. Martin's HiCarb that a lot like for brush work and in fact is a little darker as you can see. Steig is the only fountain pen safe ink of all these in the test. To have this level of black in a fountain pen safe, truly waterproof ink is going to be a major event when it finally comes out for sale, can't wait!

[Chevalier]

Good to hear that a new FW ink is on the way. I just looked up some old work done with the old FW ink and it looks like it was done a week ago (should be more like a decade ago). I really like Borealis Black now, but I have no idea how stuff done with it will look in another decade. I won't use the FW formula from DR again, at least not in technical pens, I already destroyed 2 0.13 TPs with it.

[Andrew Wendel]

I hadn't checked in here for a very long time, and I have to say I'm delighted to hear the good news!

[ekwiat]

Any news if the current batch of the new "old" formula FW ink has performed well and is on track for a commercial release?