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Possible To Analyze Old Fw Ink And Deduce Recipe?


InkDog

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One of my friends and I are bummed out that the old FW ink we used in the 70's and 80's is gone forever seemingly, and current FW inks are no match for that old ink. He has some still useable FW ink, and I wonder if there are any science guys here who know anything about analyzing old inks and being able to recreate them from the results. As a guitar pickup maker I have done similar work using spectrum analyses of old vintage steels, just wonder if ink is too complex a material to figure out a recipe from a list of chemical results in such a test. I know this is a fountain pen forum, but the reason my friend is dying to find a replacement ink is he uses it in his Pelikan 120 where it flows frelly, doesn't clog, is completely waterproof and dense black. I have used it in 6x0 technical pens and there too, it flowed freely without clogging. We both have tried many inks and none come close. The ink was manufactured by Steig Products, which I think no longer is in business, founders are probably deceased. Thanks.

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Noodler's Inks has produced replicas of vintage inks. Dark Matter, the V-Mail series, Baystate Blue, and others I believe. The story of Dark Matter is interesting and mentions reconstructing the specific ink that was mixed for use at Los Alamos for the Manhattan Project based on a sample that was sent to Nathan. You can read more on the Noodler's site about vintage remade inks.

Edited by Truppi327

Best,

Mike Truppi

 

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I emailed Noodler's and found an email address for Nathan, asking if they could analyze the ink etc. NO reply. Also emailed Rotring, Daler Rowney who owns the FW name, NO replies. If anyone could reproduce this ink it would sell like crazy, illustrators loved it, it worked better than any other ink made in Rapidograph pens, it worked super wonderfully ink fountain pens, TOTALLY waterproof, jet dark dense blackhole black. What else could you ask for ;-) No one seems interested in analyzing it. Noodlers makes great inks, their Heart of Darkness has a permanent place in my fountain pens, my Pelikan 120 and my cheap sketch fountain pens. If it were only waterproof it would be a winner.

 

I found several references on the web that Badger Air Opaque ink was made using the old FW formula. Unfortunately all these posts are several years old and older. So I bought some and tried it today, it makes a wonderful dip pen ink, is completely waterproof. Many said they used it in fountain pens, yet in mine it clogged the pen up really fast and would hardly flow. I think that formula was changed several years ago and is now also an acrylic ink.

 

You would think Noodler's would be interested in this old formula. Sure, they mostly make inks for security purposes, but do they realize that probably the bulk of the ink they sell goes to calligrapher's and artists? Unfortunately none of their inks are truly waterproof, some are "water resistant" but you wouldn't dare do a paying illustration job with their black inks only to find they bleed when you put washes over them, or wet down your watercolor paper for laying in color washes. I don't think the art market is anything they are conscious of unfortunately. They should be aware that a truly good flowing, truly waterproof ink that can be used in fountain pens, dip pens and technical pens would be a hot seller, the "manga" illustration market alone is full of ink maniacs looking for a better mousetrap.

 

FW ink was made by Steig Products, which apparenlty doesn't exist anymore, Arthur Steig invented the inks, brother of William Steig the famous children's book illustrator. Arthur must have been some genius if no one can reproduce the inks he made for 30 years, another American legendary product gone I guess....

Edited by InkDog
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Hi, I'm the "friend" InkDog refers to, and I've been on a quest for years, seeking a substitute for the old formula FW. I've also read positive reviews of Noodlers and all the other premium brand inks and none are waterproof and/or flow as well as the old FW. I have a little over a bottle left of the good stuff, so I'm not relying on my memory of how it was--I can do an instant match-up. Of course, my needs are specialized: I'm a professional illustrator (been doing it for some 40 years) and for the better part of my career, I've used the original FW (black) in a Pelikan 120 on Arches 90# Cold Press watercolor paper. When my work is inked-in, I run the paper under the faucet for a few seconds to thoroughly wet both sides and then staple it to a multi-ply corrugated board. I need an ink that will flow well in my pen and dry immediately, so it doesn't smear under my drawing hand. For some time, I was seeking a good substitute for my trusty Pelikan 120 fountain pen and I've finally found it in a Pelikan M200 with an M250 nib. I now have two, a medium and a fine nib, and I got them from Richard Binder, who tests each nib for flow before he ships them. They work fabulously. Now to find that elusive ink. Like InkDog, I had hopes for the Badger Air Opaque--I even ordered two bottles the other day--but, alas, it looks like the search continues.

 

I have a thread discussing ink and pens on the illustrator's blog, Drawger, and many artists and fountain pen enthusiasts have responded with tips and questions, but so far, the old FW is unmatched for my specific needs.

 

My Drawger TOOLS Thread

Edited by Pelikan 120
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Have you tried the Platinum and Sailor Black pigment inks made with nanoparticles to permit use in fountain paens? I know several artist members (including Steve Light) use these.

"Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination."

Oscar Wilde

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Standard black, I guarantee is 100% waterproof on any normal paper, if it smears or runs, or bleeds or does anything other than look like you just wrote it, it needs to be diluted a bit because too much ink is hitting the paper, which prevents it from reacting properly.

 

Now if it's some kinda coated/sized paper then you're going to have issues with most FP inks. The Noodler's blacks are specifically designed to be completely water soluble until they react with cellulose fibers in paper, so if that doesn't happen they run easily, great for 99% of fp users, but if you need to write on some kinda un-paper stuff it's not for you.

 

Nathan would probably be interested, but I don't think he even checks his email these days, maybe once every few months or something. My guess though is he'll say that it's not the kind of ink he specializes in, since it sounds like that old FW ink is something similar to a pigmented acrylic type of product that happens to be better behaved than most.

 

The only product I can think of that's similar is the higgins waterproof black inks. One of them is a carbon based fluid more for fountain pens, the other is a their waterproof Black Magic ink, which they describe as "non clogging and free flowing" on "vellum, drafting cloth and other film surfaces". They also have an india ink but it will likely have clogging issues in your pelikan. I've never used any of the higgins products, but others here on FPN have and seem to like them in their fountain pens.

 

edit: note that the higgins Black Magic stuff is latex based, and personally I wouldn't let the stuff anywhere near a nice pen like a Pelikan, but it sounds closest to the product you were wanting.

Edited by Yoda4561
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Thanks, Lloyd (Harold, I didn't know you were still alive!) and Yoda4561.

 

I haven't yet tried the Sailor Black, but I will. I just received my Badger ink and just tried it in a Lamy pen. First off, it IS a acrylic and even smells exactly like acrylic paint. It didn't flow well and didn't dry quite as quickly as I'd prefer. In fact, it flowed horribly. I emptied it out of the pen and filled it with the old FW and, what a world of difference! The FW flowed well and dried almost immediately.

 

Yoda, I have tried all the Higgins inks, including the Black Magic and none work nearly as well as the vintage FW. I work only on Arches cold press watercolor paper, which is a very high-grade, French hand-made paper. It has a great tooth and I can get very fine to quite thick lines on it. For decades I worked on Arches with FW ink & had no problems whatsoever. It was only when FW was bought out by another company and changed the ink to acrylic that I began this search for a substitute. I was down to about a quarter bottle, when another illustrator generously reached out to me through my Drawger blog and offered me two bottles of the old FW that he no longer needed. It was my good fortune that he had gone entirely digital, working only with a Wacom tablet. I use a Wacom Cintiq and it's a great tool for animation, but I still much prefer drawing with analog tools for my illustration. Ain't nothing like a real nib doing its thing on a fine paper.

 

Now that I've switched from my trusty old Pelikan 120 (can't find medium nibs for it anymore) to my new Pelikan M200 with the M250 nibs, I'll go back and try the Noodlers inks again. Maybe they'll flow better in the new pens better than they did in the 120. I'll also purchase some Sailor Black. So far, in my experience and with my paper and pens, the Platinum Carbon Black is the best of the lot. Trouble is, it takes quite a bit longer to dry and when I'm working on a big illustration, it really slows me down. I do tend to smear it if I'm not very, very careful to let the lines dry. Once it's dry, it is completely waterproof and holds up perfectly when the paper is run under water and, later, when watercolor is applied.

 

Again, thanks for your input.

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Thanks, Lloyd (Harold, I didn't know you were still alive!) and Yoda4561.

 

I haven't yet tried the Sailor Black, but I will. I just received my Badger ink and just tried it in a Lamy pen. First off, it IS a acrylic and even smells exactly like acrylic paint. It didn't flow well and didn't dry quite as quickly as I'd prefer. In fact, it flowed horribly. I emptied it out of the pen and filled it with the old FW and, what a world of difference! The FW flowed well and dried almost immediately.

 

Yoda, I have tried all the Higgins inks, including the Black Magic and none work nearly as well as the vintage FW. I work only on Arches cold press watercolor paper, which is a very high-grade, French hand-made paper. It has a great tooth and I can get very fine to quite thick lines on it. For decades I worked on Arches with FW ink & had no problems whatsoever. It was only when FW was bought out by another company and changed the ink to acrylic that I began this search for a substitute. I was down to about a quarter bottle, when another illustrator generously reached out to me through my Drawger blog and offered me two bottles of the old FW that he no longer needed. It was my good fortune that he had gone entirely digital, working only with a Wacom tablet. I use a Wacom Cintiq and it's a great tool for animation, but I still much prefer drawing with analog tools for my illustration. Ain't nothing like a real nib doing its thing on a fine paper.

 

Now that I've switched from my trusty old Pelikan 120 (can't find medium nibs for it anymore) to my new Pelikan M200 with the M250 nibs, I'll go back and try the Noodlers inks again. Maybe they'll flow better in the new pens better than they did in the 120. I'll also purchase some Sailor Black. So far, in my experience and with my paper and pens, the Platinum Carbon Black is the best of the lot. Trouble is, it takes quite a bit longer to dry and when I'm working on a big illustration, it really slows me down. I do tend to smear it if I'm not very, very careful to let the lines dry. Once it's dry, it is completely waterproof and holds up perfectly when the paper is run under water and, later, when watercolor is applied.

 

Again, thanks for your input.

 

Your bottle of noodler's black could be supersaturated, it happens sometimes, nathan can be oddly stingy with his water. Many folks have lots of luck with the regular black diluted between 3:1 or 1:1 ink:distilled water . Flow and dry times are usually improved without loss of "blackness".

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Noodlers Black can leave too dense of a line; depositing ink on top of ink. This ink NEEDS to interact with the paper's cellulose to form a permanent bond. If it goes on too densely, te top layer won't bond appropriately.

 

This is the specific Sailor ink and this is the specific Platinum ink. I know members Ethernautrix and Steve Light prefer the Platinum ink to the Sailor ink.

"Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination."

Oscar Wilde

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I haven't used the Platinum Carbon Black, but when I test bulletproof inks I label them with Sailor Kiwaguro Carbon ink. That ink is absolutely untouched, whereas there is often a bit of ink migration with the bulletproof inks.

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“Them as can do has to do for them as can’t.


And someone has to speak up for them as has no voices.”


Granny Aching

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Well, the point is that the old FW was superior to any of the inks mentioned, by the time Nathan decides to check his email there may not be any left to analyze. Who knows, maybe FW is THE ink that will put all his other ink to shame as far as security purposes. It definitely was NOT an acrylic ink. The Sailor ink sounds interesting and there is a thread here on the forum somewhere that I read, which sounded promising, but again, its no match for old FW. I contacted a scientific lab that is doing ink analyses for a crime lab database, they've developed some technique to analyze ink samples, they may already have results for FW in their system. They said their lead guy is on vacation but would get back to me, maybe some hope there. Seriously, if no company is interested in this incredible ink, if its in my power to do I'll figure out how to make it myself and smoke the competition mad.gif

Edited by InkDog
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I had no idea, back when I was breezily buying FW ink and extra nibs for my Pelikan 120 that one day the manufacturers would cease to make my trusty tools. Even my favorite #7 brush--one that would point like a needle and yet lay in a full sky of watercolor--is no longer being made. Here's a paragraph about it from my Drawger blog Tools section:

 

"For years I used the superb Strathmore Kolinsky Watercolor Brushes. I began buying them in the late 70's, when I lived in New York City and, as I recall, I got a number 7 for around $35, which was pretty expensive back then. Once in a while I'd get one with a less than stellar point but, over all, they were consistently excellent. The Strathmore Kolinsky's handle was natural, unfinished wood, without the usual lacquered finish. I found that to be a great feature--no slipping around when held. Before discovering the Strathmore, I bought mostly Winsor & Newton Series 7, using a smaller brush for details and a larger one for bigger areas. The Strathmore number 7 did it all. I could lay in a good-sized sky and, with the same brush, place color in a miniscule coat button--no problem. The Kolinsky had a long, tapered point, as sharp as a needle and the brush body would snap back after pressing down, laying a wash, effortlessly. Little did I know I was being spoiled rotten."

 

Ditto on the ink. And the same for my Pelikan 120 fountain pen--until I found the newer, tested, Pelikan M200 (with 250 nib) from Richard Binder. If I'd known, I would have stocked up on brushes and ink.

 

Thanks, Yoda, for the tip about adding some distilled water to the Noodlers. That might make it really work. I wonder if that might also help the Platinum, assuming it clogs my new Pelikan.

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Pelikan120- I'm an old guy, an art director/designer/illustrator, 35 years in the business and got interested in doing some cartooning recently. So, naturally started stocking up "art supplies" that I'd used in my career (which I abandoned a year ago). One of the first things I went looking for was FW ink. To my dismay I stumbled on your blog and mention that FW ink was long gone. I used to love that ink SOOOO much that back in the day I would make sure that all my designer friends knew about it and used it in their technical pens. There simply was nothing like it, no other ink could touch its qualities and superior performance. When computers took over the business, I happily and easily made the change so my technical pens went in a drawer, still full of ink. I had a Stanograph technical pen, a 6x0, you could poke a flea's eyeball out with one of those things--it had been sitting in a drawer for 6 years and I took it out, gave it a few shakes and it STARTED RIGHT UP! I about fell off my chair! I hope you will save a little of your FW for analysis purposes down the road, if anyone knows Nathan personally point him to this thread, I would love to have him check this stuff out. Don't forget this ink was invented in the 70's, technologies back then didn't include "nano" particles, they made this stuff for nearly 30 years, so how hard could it be to make it again?

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There is a thread on the Sailor ink here

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/73379-sailor-kiwaguro-nano-carbon-ink/

The waterproof test looks rather dismal, thats pretty much what Noodler's does, just really isn't waterproof, at JetPens Sailor ink is listed as "water resistant."

 

Wow, I just visited that page, and the test results really are abysmal. I'll have to do a similar test to show how very waterproof the old FW ink is. I don't run the Arches under the water for 30 seconds, but I do so for comparison. I usually wet one side (10 seconds, max) and then wet the other side before stapling the paper down on my corrugated board.

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There is a thread on the Sailor ink here

http://www.fountainp...ano-carbon-ink/

The waterproof test looks rather dismal, thats pretty much what Noodler's does, just really isn't waterproof, at JetPens Sailor ink is listed as "water resistant."

 

Wow, I just visited that page, and the test results really are abysmal. I'll have to do a similar test to show how very waterproof the old FW ink is. I don't run the Arches under the water for 30 seconds, but I do so for comparison. I usually wet one side (10 seconds, max) and then wet the other side before stapling the paper down on my corrugated board.

 

If you are complaining about the little bit of smearing in the Lamy 2000 sample (the Reform 1745 isn't using the Sailor ink), the smearing is primarily due to too much ink going down. Using a blotter prior to the water-wash would probably stop all smearing. The same goes for Noodlers Bulletproof Black.

"Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination."

Oscar Wilde

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I wonder if there are any science guys here who know anything about analyzing old inks and being able to recreate them from the results. As a guitar pickup maker I have done similar work using spectrum analyses of old vintage steels, just wonder if ink is too complex a material to figure out a recipe from a list of chemical results in such a test.

 

Hi InkDog,

 

What you are describing is absolutely achievable. The standard method involves ion-pair chromatography coupled to a mass spectrometer. Depending on the particulars, the analysis may require the use of supplemental analytical techniques.

 

The problem is going to be the cost. For a relatively standard ink, where the ingredients and proportions can be roughly estimated, the analysis takes a few hours. For a highly unusual ink with totally unknown components, the time required increases geometrically. To get a characterisation of a standard ink will be in the ballpark of 1000 USD. A difficult ink can start to run into the tens of thousands of dollars. Keep in mind too that even once you get the ink analysed, there is no guarantee that you can re-create it. The components may no longer be available commercially or may no longer be labeled for use in products such as ink.

 

I think your best option would be to demonstrate their is "significant" demand for this ink. Start a petition and collect signatures, then approach an ink manufacturer with both your petition and bottles of the ink for analysis. Show them that they'll make a significant return on the cost of analysing, manufacturing and marketing this ink.

 

Were I in your position, I would approach the independent ink manufacturers first. Try Diamine and J. Herbin as they have the resources to undertake this project and it fits well within their product coverage. Noodler's Ink seems like it would be a good choice at first blush, but NI does not have the necessary instruments and are a small operation with limited capital. If Diamine and J. Herbin turn you down, then I'd start trying to gather the interest of pen manufacturers who also make their own lines of ink.

 

HTH! I look forward to seeing the artists rally for re-creating their favourite ink!

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I was gonna say "don't bother, nobody will help you", but Chemyst said it way nicer than I could have managed!

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The bigger issue as far as I can see is that the FW seems to be a pigmented ink intended for drawing pens rather than fountain pens--so FP ink manufacturers probably won't be all that interested.

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