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what is a sheaffer 444 really?


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#1 magan

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 05:17

all along i thought that a sheaffer 444 is a "flighter" type pen with an inlaid nib. but i saw this fs thread on the market place with the pen having a 444 sticker but with a conical nib. so what is a 444 really? thanks!

#2 Hugh200au

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:12

I'm pretty sure (well, certain actually) a 444 should only come with an inlaid nib. I think your correct in your description, a "flighter" style pen, steel inlaid nib and chrome trim. Sounds like wrong cap on the pen, assuming the sticker is on the cap.

Regards
Hugh

#3 magan

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 12:38

but the seller claims he has around 200 pens! see this fs thread: http://www.fountainp...1

i think 200 pens with wrong caps is an anomaly don't you?

(edit: to add, i am not affiliated in any way with the seller although i've been a customer of his. i'm thinking of getting one of the said conical 444 if it can be confirmed that sheaffer did make them... thanks!)

Edited by magan, 31 January 2010 - 12:40.


#4 matt385

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 15:58

I just bought the same pen with matching pencil on ebay 2 weeks ago. It was crusted with ink and took a lot of soaking but it is one of the smoothest fine writers I have.

I thought all Imperials had the inlaid nib, however, Sheaffer was doing a lot of mixing and matching back then and there were several different versions of the Imperial sold. I wonder if the same could be said for your 444?
The key to life is how well you deal with Plan B.

#5 Hugh200au

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 20:57

To me the pen pictured doesn't look like a 444, the body shape is wrong as is the section. The cap on a 444 is held in place differently and it is a wider bodied pen and it has an inlaid nib. It would appear there are 200 stickers on the wrong pen, but all said still a good buy at the price whatever the pen. This is a 444


Regards
Hugh

#6 terim

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 22:57

This post originally had a Sheaffer ad that showed the 444, but I can't find the image ...

http://www.fountainp...showtopic=60275

I agree that Sheaffer was doing weird and unpleasantly inconsistent things with labels in this era, though I haven't had issues with the 444 X model. I recently purchased a large quantity of 444 X's and they had consistent stickers on the cap with no anomalies. They all had the inlaid steel nibs.
Posted Image

TERI

Edited by terim, 31 January 2010 - 23:03.

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#7 magan

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 02:45

thanks for the replies. i have a smooth writing 444 (so smooth my girlfriend took it!) as well and i was just surprised when i saw the fs thread with a different pen named 444.

is it safe to say that it is the labeling which is wrong but not the caps? if so, would anyone know what the real model name of the pen is (if it has its own name) and when was it produced? thanks a lot!

#8 hari317

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 08:09

thanks for the replies. i have a smooth writing 444 (so smooth my girlfriend took it!) as well and i was just surprised when i saw the fs thread with a different pen named 444.

is it safe to say that it is the labeling which is wrong but not the caps? if so, would anyone know what the real model name of the pen is (if it has its own name) and when was it produced? thanks a lot!


I was equally intrigued by the stickers on the pen. The pen looks like an all steel version of the 777 stylist with the later conical small triumph nib. But I don't know what the white/grey interface stuff between the nib and section is doing? maybe Sheaffer had excess stock of conical nibs and they fashioned an interface to retrofit these pens with that.

Best,
Hari

#9 terim

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 18:13

Yes, I also wondered about that weird grey area. And I like Hari's comparison to the 777 Stylist -- it also had that same button filler.
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#10 Hugh200au

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 21:01

Well, after a bit of looking around on another thread I've come to the conclusion it is a 444 (making my first post wrong!!...this happens way to often..), but a very different 444 to the inlaid nib model. This 444 is based on the Lady models like the 925 etc. yet fitted with a triumph ( or skripsert ) nib and numbered (or so it appears) to correspond to similiar finish inlaid nib pens. I've come across two different 727 models , gold plated model one with an inlaid nib and one triumph. The same pen also came in the "flame" pattern and the "sea spray" pattern (and probably a lot more) that I've seen so far and labeled as a 923. All rather confusing...

Regards
Hugh




#11 Johnny Appleseed

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 23:24

All rather confusing...

Regards
Hugh


Sheaffer model naming conventions confusing? :rolleyes:

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#12 terim

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 15:11

Do we need to make a distinction between the 727 IMPERIAL model (inlaid gold nib, gold plated, convertor/cartridge, short white dot clip) and some other type of 727? I honestly didn't think the 727 Imperial ever had a triumph nib ..... maybe a different "non Imperial" 727 or a mislabeled 777?

Has anyone bought one of those triumph nib'd 444s? I'm really curious!

TERI
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#13 Hugh200au

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 21:43

Hi Terri, 727 It did come with with a triumph (skripsert) nib !! and looks the same as the 444 referred to in the OP but gold plated, gold nib, a very different pen to the 727 Imperial. To me these appear to be the same pen as the Lady Sheaffer, but not marketed as a lady model....a ladies mens pen perhaps!!...and numbered to correspond to the same finish as the same numbered imperials.

Regards
Hugh

#14 jar

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 21:45

Hi Terri, 727 It did come with with a triumph (skripsert) nib !! and looks the same as the 444 referred to in the OP but gold plated, gold nib, a very different pen to the 727 Imperial. To me these appear to be the same pen as the Lady Sheaffer, but not marketed as a lady model....a ladies mens pen perhaps!!...and numbered to correspond to the same finish as the same numbered imperials.

Regards
Hugh


As usual, Sheaffer was ahead of its time and they were a way for the male writer to get in and touch his inner female. :thumbup:

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#15 magan

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 14:44

Do we need to make a distinction between the 727 IMPERIAL model (inlaid gold nib, gold plated, convertor/cartridge, short white dot clip) and some other type of 727? I honestly didn't think the 727 Imperial ever had a triumph nib ..... maybe a different "non Imperial" 727 or a mislabeled 777?

Has anyone bought one of those triumph nib'd 444s? I'm really curious!

TERI


i bought one and it just arrived today. i wouldn't use it myself as it looks like a ladies pen. gonna give it to my girlfriend. it appears as you see it in the photos. sorry, can't help about what pen it really is. but as i've said, it is a ladies pen...

#16 terim

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 17:56

The 727s in the link sent by Hugh were actually Stylist 777s. I know, because I bought them all! The seller did have 727s and they were as expected -- inlaid gold nibs, gold plated bodies -- but the photo on their web site was of the wrong pen.

I guess this is how misinformation propagates! Of course, Sheaffer didn't help by labeling the 777 pencils as 727s!

TERI
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#17 terim

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 18:08

I also got one from Ali, and I really like it a lot. This is one of the smoothest Triumph nibs I've ever tried and I believe it's the same nib as Sheaffer used on the Imperial IIs (though it seems slightly shinier and may in fact be stainless steel while the Imperial IIs are some other alloy).

I'm not sure what makes it a ladies pen other than the general slimness. It's no slimmer than a Parker 75, though it's definitely slimmer than the standard 444 Xs which I sell.

It may be some weird or hybrid version of the 444 which Sheaffer relegated to the mid-east ....

TERI
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#18 Hugh200au

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 10:00

Yet another 727 and this one has a sticker that clearly says 727!! They really do exist. Again these are not Imperials...

Regards
Hugh

#19 magan

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 14:27

I also got one from Ali, and I really like it a lot. This is one of the smoothest Triumph nibs I've ever tried and I believe it's the same nib as Sheaffer used on the Imperial IIs (though it seems slightly shinier and may in fact be stainless steel while the Imperial IIs are some other alloy).

I'm not sure what makes it a ladies pen other than the general slimness. It's no slimmer than a Parker 75, though it's definitely slimmer than the standard 444 Xs which I sell.

It may be some weird or hybrid version of the 444 which Sheaffer relegated to the mid-east ....

TERI


i thought it was a ladies pen because it is really slim. my bad if it isn't... my girlfriend doesn't want it so i'm going to sell it at a lower price (i replaced the button filler converter with a squeeze converter :) )

#20 terim

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 19:30

Ha ha! I don't consider "ladies pen" an insult, though it does cause a pen to fetch a lower price.

Good luck with your sale. These are so nice, I'd planned on buying Ali out and selling them myself, but he ended up selling them to someone else.

TERI
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#21 terim

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 19:32

Wow, Hugh! This is just the configuration I was "denying." I think Sheaffer was pretty inconsistent in this era.

TERI



Yet another 727 and this one has a sticker that clearly says 727!! They really do exist. Again these are not Imperials...

Regards
Hugh


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#22 Hugh200au

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 23:03

Wow, Hugh! This is just the configuration I was "denying." I think Sheaffer was pretty inconsistent in this era.

TERI




Yet another 727 and this one has a sticker that clearly says 727!! They really do exist. Again these are not Imperials...

Regards
Hugh


"pretty inconsistent" sums it up Terri !! I wouldn't be surprised if a few more model numbers found in the Imperials turn up in this "ladies mens" configuration (it could be that by this time they had used up every possible 3 digit combination....Posted Image). I've started writing down the various 3 digit configuration, but as some models appear identical apart from the number it will, at best, be a guide. I came across a 708, blue plastic barrel and a gold lame finish cap...stunning ( but I was too tight to buy it..)

Regards
Hugh

#23 PenHero

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 14:53

I've done a little bit of detective work on this subject, perusing what limited price lists, advertisements and catalogs I have from the 1970s, and though Sheaffer is not 100% consistent, here is a kind of general guideline for 1970s era Sheaffer Triumph and Imperial pens:

1. Imperial vs Triumph nibs

  • Imperial models generally have 14 karat gold nibs and the diamond shaped cutout:
    Posted Image
    Imperial nibs
  • Triumph models generally have stainless steel nibs (with some exception - keep reading) and the rounded V shaped cutout:
    Posted Image
    Triumph nib (ignore the cap)

2. Triumph and Imperial Model Numbers - How they work

  • The number refers to the finish type: 444 is a brushed chrome finish - this is a brass pen with chrome plate finish - these are not stainless steel pens
  • Letters after the number modify the trim type or nib type: X means the pen has gold plated trim, G means the pen has a 14 karat gold nib

3. Triumph and Imperial Model Numbers - types of finishes (note that these are not available on both Triumph and Imperial

  • The following are Triumph Models
  • 330 is plastic cap and barrel with chrome plated trim
  • 440 is brushed chrome cap, plastic barrel with chrome plated trim (sometimes also Imperial II)
  • 444 is a brushed chrome finish cap and barrel
  • 506 is bright chrome plated cap and barrel with chrome plated trim
  • 550 is plastic cap and barrel with gold plated trim

    The following are Imperial Models
  • 770 is lined gold plated cap and plastic barrel with gold plated trim
  • 777 is lined gold plated cap and barrel with gold plated trim
  • 797 is fluted gold plated cap and barrel with gold plated trim
  • 827 is barleycorn gold plated cap and barrel with gold plated trim

You can see a very complete list at SheafferTarga.com:
SHEAFFER IMPERIAL FAMILY OF FOUNTAIN PENS

#24 Hugh200au

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 20:51

Hi Jim, Do any of your catalogues show the range of ladies ( or that style) pens with the skripsert nibs? What I'm finding is some of these pens with corresponding numbers to the Imperial and Triumph and am starting to wonder how many "duplicate" number models there really are. The pen in the OP is a 444, but clearly not an Imperial, so what is it called? I wouldn't think a "Lady" designation would really suit, and I doubt it would have been sold as such. It's getting too complicated....Posted Image

Regards
Hugh

#25 PenHero

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 01:14

Hugh,

That's on my to-do list. I don't have enough information yet, but hope to this year.