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No, *this* is the weirdest pen on ebay - EVER


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#1 meanwhile

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 15:35

As my is habit when I have to wait around for work phone calls late at night or on a weekend, I've been reading webcomics and searching ebay. (Ok - I also do these things during some of the more boring calls I have to take - it's actually better than shouting "We settled what we have do in the first 5 minutes, so shut up!" so I don't feel at ALL guilty.)

Anyway my latest and weirdest find, completely eclipsing the Death Star of Stub, is...

DAS
STUKA FUHRER PEN!


Posted Image

"An extremely unusual German piston-filler fountain pen sporting an elaborate solid silver clip comprising a Swastika emblem surmounted by an eagle, wings outstretched...

My understanding is that these pens were awarded to Luftwaffe pilots in recognition of ‘good service’, accompanied by a signed letter of commendation from you-know-who. The filling mechanism is extraordinary. Basically you dip the pen into ink, pull out the plunger, and write. Returning the plunger to closed position simply ejects the ink. For the life of me I could not figure out why anyone would come up with such a daft design. German ingenuity it is not, thought I. Well... that was my initial response. A collector of WWII German militaria has explained all to me. First, these pens carried far more symbolic significance than utility. That clip is a statement. You wore that pen, rather than used it. Second, the last thing a dive-bomber pilot needed, when in a maximum G-force turn, was a pen emptying itself (with some force) inside flying jacket (Oh mein Gott... wet, wet, wet... I’ve been shot!). You could only carry this pen in a breast pocket in closed (empty) state. I have that as anecdote only... but it makes complete sense to me."


It is quite an attractive and interesting writing instrument. All the same I won't be bidding: the closest thing to Nazi regalia I'm willing to own is a tape of The Producers.

I notice the current bidder has his feedback set to private - although it's a creditable 54 items, all positive... I can't specualting that there are, jah, 5O letters by Der Fuhrer, ein Iron Cross, an SS dagger, and a signed photo of Eva Braun hidden there...

Anyway -

Germany was having trouble
What a sad, sad story
Needed a new leader to restore
Its former glory
Where, oh, where was he?
Where could that man be?
We looked around and then we found
The man for you and me
And now it's...
Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Deutschland is happy and gay!
We're marching to a faster pace
Look out, here comes the master race!

- Jonathan

#2 Richard

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 18:06

it's immediately apparent that the seller does not know pens. The description of the filling system shouts "Vacuum-Fil!" Okay, so Sheaffer didn't make pens in Germany during the war, who else...? Wahl-Eversharp? Nooooo... Onoto (De la Rue)? Nope -- but hey, it's likely that there were enough prewar Onoto pens floating around in Germany that a German pen company might see the utility of the design. Who knows?
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#3 KCat

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 19:29

it's immediately apparent that the seller does not know pens. ?

is your assessment based on seeing the entire description on e-bay? While he/she may not know filling systems in great detail, it seems a stretch to say he/she doesn't know anything about pens.

I know a good bit about pens - but nothing even close to your level of knowledge. Still, if someone knows what nib is and how to exchange the original for a decent functional nib as this seller apparently did, then I have to give them some credit for knowing something about pens. More than a lot of e-bayers that put pens out there with descriptions like "the metal pointy bit on the end". :)

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#4 sbagley

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 05:33

As my is habit when I have to wait around for work phone calls late at night or on a weekend, I've been reading webcomics and searching ebay. (Ok - I also do these things during some of the more boring calls I have to take - it's actually better than shouting "We settled what we have do in the first 5 minutes, so shut up!" so I don't feel at ALL guilty.)

Anyway my latest and weirdest find, completely eclipsing the Death Star of Stub, is...

DAS
STUKA FUHRER PEN!


Posted Image

"An extremely unusual German piston-filler fountain pen sporting an elaborate solid silver clip comprising a Swastika emblem surmounted by an eagle, wings outstretched...

My understanding is that these pens were awarded to Luftwaffe pilots in recognition of ‘good service’, accompanied by a signed letter of commendation from you-know-who. The filling mechanism is extraordinary. Basically you dip the pen into ink, pull out the plunger, and write. Returning the plunger to closed position simply ejects the ink. For the life of me I could not figure out why anyone would come up with such a daft design. German ingenuity it is not, thought I. Well... that was my initial response. A collector of WWII German militaria has explained all to me. First, these pens carried far more symbolic significance than utility. That clip is a statement. You wore that pen, rather than used it. Second, the last thing a dive-bomber pilot needed, when in a maximum G-force turn, was a pen emptying itself (with some force) inside flying jacket (Oh mein Gott... wet, wet, wet... I’ve been shot!). You could only carry this pen in a breast pocket in closed (empty) state. I have that as anecdote only... but it makes complete sense to me."


It is quite an attractive and interesting writing instrument. All the same I won't be bidding: the closest thing to Nazi regalia I'm willing to own is a tape of The Producers.

I notice the current bidder has his feedback set to private - although it's a creditable 54 items, all positive... I can't specualting that there are, jah, 5O letters by Der Fuhrer, ein Iron Cross, an SS dagger, and a signed photo of Eva Braun hidden there...

Anyway -

Germany was having trouble
What a sad, sad story
Needed a new leader to restore
Its former glory
Where, oh, where was he?
Where could that man be?
We looked around and then we found
The man for you and me
And now it's...
Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Deutschland is happy and gay!
We're marching to a faster pace
Look out, here comes the master race!



#5 sbagley

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 05:39

I found this one in a flee market in Sofia Bulgaria in 2001. Sounds like the same pen.001.JPG 005.JPG Montblac 055.JPG

#6 bassopotamus

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 06:03

I found this one in a flee market in Sofia Bulgaria in 2001. Sounds like the same pen.001.JPG 005.JPG Montblac 055.JPG


Why would the Nazis write Germany rather than Deutschland on their pens?
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#7 Martius

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 06:54

[/quote]
Why would the Nazis write Germany rather than Deutschland on their pens?
[/quote]

Foreign edition?
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#8 Tweel

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 06:55

Why would the Nazis write Germany rather than Deutschland on their pens?

I'd say that it was meant to be handed out as a souvenir pen, but then it should say "Niemcy 1939".

If the pen is from the right era, then it should be celluloid -- the candle-flame test would settle that.

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#9 DAYoung

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 07:53

It looks fake to me. First, the eagle is all wrong - looks more like a minah than the Reich's characteristic bird of prey. Second, 'Germany'? A nationalistic empire using the English word for their beloved fatherland? Even if it's a gift, sympathetic Britons wouldn't be put off by 'Deutschland'. ("I say, Unity, this pen is in German. Do tell Adie to have a whisper in Mont Blanc's ear.")

But I'm as much an expert on this as I am on butterfly mating.

So take these speculations with a pinch of the proverbial.

Edited by DAYoung, 24 October 2010 - 08:01.

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#10 mori45

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 08:27

It looks fake to me. First, the eagle is all wrong - looks more like a minah than the Reich's characteristic bird of prey. Second, 'Germany'? A nationalistic empire using the English word for their beloved fatherland? Even if it's a gift, sympathetic Britons wouldn't be put off by 'Deutschland'. ("I say, Unity, this pen is in German. Do tell Adie to have a whisper in Mont Blanc's ear.")

But I'm as much an expert on this as I am on butterfly mating.

So take these speculations with a pinch of the proverbial.



I'd have to agree. I was in Vietnam a couple of years ago and a friend asked me to pick up a lighter for him. As it turns out, every souvenir shop sold lighters "left" by American servicemen. There was even one guy who I caught sanding and hammering a way at a new Zippo who asked me rather sheepishly if I wanted an authentic Vietnam War relic. Where there's money to be made, replicas will follow.

#11 EMM

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 19:29

Looks pretty cool ha ha
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#12 aawhite

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 23:05

I found in a respectable antique shop in Dresden a restored Montblanc from the late 1930's to early 1940's and marked as "Deutschland". There was no swastika. The store owner was asking for 600 euros. I am not an expert in pen appraisal and I was not sure, so I gave it a miss.

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#13 glindauer

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 12:02

It looks fake to me. First, the eagle is all wrong - looks more like a minah than the Reich's characteristic bird of prey. Second, 'Germany'? A nationalistic empire using the English word for their beloved fatherland? Even if it's a gift, sympathetic Britons wouldn't be put off by 'Deutschland'. ("I say, Unity, this pen is in German. Do tell Adie to have a whisper in Mont Blanc's ear.")

But I'm as much an expert on this as I am on butterfly mating.

So take these speculations with a pinch of the proverbial.


Looks like you were right-- the listing is no longer on ebay, and even if it had sold, usually listings stay up 30 days afterward.

#14 bassopotamus

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 12:58


It looks fake to me. First, the eagle is all wrong - looks more like a minah than the Reich's characteristic bird of prey. Second, 'Germany'? A nationalistic empire using the English word for their beloved fatherland? Even if it's a gift, sympathetic Britons wouldn't be put off by 'Deutschland'. ("I say, Unity, this pen is in German. Do tell Adie to have a whisper in Mont Blanc's ear.")

But I'm as much an expert on this as I am on butterfly mating.

So take these speculations with a pinch of the proverbial.


Looks like you were right-- the listing is no longer on ebay, and even if it had sold, usually listings stay up 30 days afterward.


Doesn't Ebay have an issue with Nazi Memorabilia? Could be that rather than authenticity that is the issue...
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#15 AR8Jason

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 01:21

EBay rarely kicks items as fakes unless the company that is "knocked off" files a VERO complaint. That would have to have come from Mont Blanc which is entirely possible, as the clip looks to crude to be from Mont Blanc. EBay have sold Nazi items in the past, but they are touchy about the swastika and the right complaint and it would be pulled. There are a list of counties that you can not mail to with Nazi items, including Germany.

I too have questions about the use of "Germany" as the mark for a pen that almost certainly not have been worn in an European English Speaking country in 1939. But, there were some in the U.S. that would have worn it with pride in 1939. Most of them got real quite or lived in a camp "for their safety" after the war started for the US.

#16 beak

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 01:46

Not a chance that the clip is genuine, IMO.
One look at the poor quality of that eagle is enough.
Not saying such things didn't exist - don't know - but if they did, this ain't one of them.

Edited by beak, 27 February 2011 - 01:47.

Sincerely, beak. God does not work in mysterious ways – he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.

#17 RedSox04

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 01:55

This is cool,

anyone know if it is real or not? I'd love to hear anything definite, as I'm sure we all would.
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#18 princess palace

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:00

It is really cool! I find the nazi thing on the clip scary... :mellow:
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#19 beak

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:26

This is cool,

anyone know if it is real or not? I'd love to hear anything definite, as I'm sure we all would.

My experience, FWIW, is that 'definite' is rarely possible; all such matters of antique attribution and verification eventually boil down to opinion. It's a matter of whose opinion you are going to go with, based on how much you respect the opinion holder and how they support their opinion with evidence. Speaking of which - here's a genuine eagle of similar size to that on the pen - have a look at the difference in quality...
Sincerely, beak. God does not work in mysterious ways – he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.

#20 RedSox04

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:32

Yeah that was my concern. Especially if it was for pilots, they would not (IMHO of WW2 history) give that out to ace pilots.
Especially considering the other gear those guys had...
To hold a pen is to be at war
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#21 beak

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:55

Sorry to interrupt, but I want to say something.

Whatever we think about the filthy behaviour and banal policies of the third Reich, the collecting of their relics and study of them in general does not indicate any support for anything they did or believed.

In my case at least, the ability to buy their relics, and to study them, is always, for me, symbolic of the fact that the civilized world turned on them and beat them down, at great cost.

I find the manufacture of fake Nazi relics quite sick, because it shows a concern with profit overriding a true sense of what they were, and what they did, and is interfering with a true evaluation of that issue, which I believe is an important thing to have, especially for younger people who have no direct connection with the times.

Sorry to bore you with that, but it's the sort of thing thst has to be got off the chest now and then!

Edited by beak, 27 February 2011 - 02:56.

Sincerely, beak. God does not work in mysterious ways – he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.

#22 opitzs

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 04:05

Hi from Germany,

1. the use of the word "Germany" would be unusual for the third Reich, but "Made in Germany" was a quality seal in use since the 19th century, so it is unusual but possible.
2. the eagle depicted looks ok for the era, remember the nazis where busy doing other things (to put it mildly), so a botched eagle here or there, as long as it is not a peace dove ;)

So, I'd say a definitive maybe, but it would be quite unusual, especially the word "Germany" on a Luftwaffe pen.

Of course, nazi memorabilia are not my forte, so take this with a grain or pound of salt.

#23 WanderingAuthor

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 01:40

If the pictured pen was actually manufactured in Germany in 1939, it would not have been given as an award to Luftwaffe pilots. Adolf Hitler, in 1939, would have awarded his pilots a pen with much finer workmanship than that. (This is not said in support of Hitler or the NSDAP; it is simply an observation. The SS and any military personnel who were singled out for special notice tended to get the best, not the cheap junk.)

In addition, while "Made in Germany" was used years before the Nazis came to power, it became less common while they were in power. I'm sure it was still used on some products for export - but on a pen with their symbolism prominently displayed on the clip? And while we think of 1939 as the year the war started, at the time there would have been less reason to display the year so prominently.

Either this is a fake - or it is a cheap souvenir given to a visiting delegation or some such - if the year was 1936, I'd wonder if they were handed out to every Olympic athlete - who didn't merit anything more than this shoddy Montblanc (if it is actually a Montblanc). If the poster who bought this wants to learn more of its history, that is the area I'd explore. The fact it reads "Germany" rather than "Deutschland" strongly implies if it is real it was not meant for Germans, but for those outside Germany, possibly English or Americans. Was there any event at which large numbers of English speakers gathered in Germany in 1939?

There is one thing which might incline me to believe it is genuine, even if it is either different from the first pen mentioned in the e-Bay auction which started this thread (or the seller completely misunderstood its history). While the quality is very poor for anything intended as a military award, it would not be unusual in another context. Much of Germany's industry was concentrating most of their efforts on manufacturing whatever suited the NSDAP as they geared up for war. So items considered less important were often made hurriedly and displayed very poor quality. (On the other hand, it isn't that hard to get cheap castings with more impressive detail than this pen displays; it appears almost a bit too crude - although I don't know what is usual in the markets of Eastern Europe.) So the owner might actually want to devote a little research into the question of what this might really have been produced for.

Edited by WanderingAuthor, 13 March 2011 - 01:40.

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#24 WanderingAuthor

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 01:59

It looks fake to me. First, the eagle is all wrong - looks more like a minah than the Reich's characteristic bird of prey. Second, 'Germany'? A nationalistic empire using the English word for their beloved fatherland? Even if it's a gift, sympathetic Britons wouldn't be put off by 'Deutschland'. ("I say, Unity, this pen is in German. Do tell Adie to have a whisper in Mont Blanc's ear.")

But I'm as much an expert on this as I am on butterfly mating.

So take these speculations with a pinch of the proverbial.


Why pick on Charity Mitford? It is true, she was sympathetic to the Nazis - but when she discovered her own country was at war with them, she killed herself because she couldn't handle her suddenly divided loyalties. And there is no evidence to suggest she ever suspected the horrors that lay beneath the Nazi gloss. So while I hardly admire her judgment, even I can muster a little sympathy for her.

I don't mean to be too harsh on you, either - but when a post manages to grate on my ears because of its ridicule of someone sympathetic to the Nazis, I have to think I'm not being that touchy. I grew up hating the Nazis, and still do. I detest everything they stood for. (I do understand there were individuals who joined the NSDAP who weren't wholehearted supporters. I certainly don't hate all Germans, and not even every individual who was caught up in the Nazi madness.) But the Nazis would have certainly exterminated me for one reason, and possibly others. (I was born with ocular albinism - and I can't imagine, if they somehow missed that, I would have escaped the "anti-social" label under their regime.) And they did try to kill my great-gran (a British subject), while she was evacuating from Dublin to the US. (Not personally, but they strafed her train, and dropped a bomb directly outside the front door of the hotel she stayed at in London. And a U-boat may have tried to sink the ship she was on crossing the Atlantic.) And my great-uncle was a paratrooper who fought in Operation Market Garden (I have his shoulder patches).

But in spite of all that, I just can't bring myself to hate a silly, messed up girl whose only crime was to be taken in by a man who swayed much steadier heads than hers.
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#25 turban1

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 14:20

the closest thing to Nazi regalia I'm willing to own is a tape of The Producers.


Quite!
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#26 ANM

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 16:14

The clip looks to me to be an after market item that could have been slipped on any pen that didn't already have a clip or to replace a broken one. So drawing inferences about the pen based on the clip may be misleading.
And the end of all our exploring
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And know the place for the first time. TS Eliot

#27 WanderingAuthor

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 17:31

The clip looks to me to be an after market item that could have been slipped on any pen that didn't already have a clip or to replace a broken one. So drawing inferences about the pen based on the clip may be misleading.


The clip is stamped "Montblanc", so either it is a fake, or it was made by Montblanc for Montblanc pens. It is possible it was made as an extra, much as Kaweco sells slip on clips for some of their pens today. And, in addition, the clip, taken together with the stamped inscription "Germany 1939" in large type - and it would have been unusual to mark the year of manufacture quite this prominently - suggests the pen was intended as a souvenir of some particular event. (Always assuming the pen is real and not a fake; I don't pretend to guess what goes through the minds of those who come up with "forgeries" of things that never existed.) And the choice of the English language suggests the recipients were primarily English speakers, or at least not native German speakers.

Of course, I would expect that Montblanc would deny any knowledge of such an item as this, whether it is real or not. I'm not suggesting they had any "special relationship" with the NSDAP - I know of no German pen company which was particularly linked to the Nazis - but simply that no one with a current brand to protect would want it associated with something like this. Add to that the likelihood that records from that period were destroyed, either during the war or during the decades that followed, and even if it was produced by Montblanc, they might have absolutely no knowledge of that fact today. So the question is unlikely to be settled that way. I do wonder, if the pen were carefully disassembled by an expert, what the internal parts might reveal. If it is a fake, I can't imagine them wasting much time on interior details, so an inspection of those parts of the pen a buyer wouldn't see upon looking at it should be quite informative.

If the owner does manage to learn anything more, I hope they'll post here, since it would be helpful in understanding the history of pens in Germany at that time. Although I very much doubt it will be possible to identify the precise occasion these pens were produced for, unless someone has a lucky hunch and manages to confirm it in contemporary news accounts. ("Each attendee was given a pen as a memento of their...." etc. etc.)
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#28 coastie

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 18:33

I do not think that this is an authentic Third Riech item. My main concern is the poor quality of workmanship of the clip. The eagle as mentioned before is (bleep). I've collected enough of this stuff and this is below par. If you look at anything Hitler presented to anyone it was always of superb quality.
I also think that Montblanc would not allow such poor workmanship leave it's shop. Notice how the lettering is uneven. Montblanc would have done it better.

There has been thousands of fake 3rd Riech medals, uniforms, and fantasy pieces coming out of the eastern European countries.

Bottom line for me, this was hammered out by some back room shop in Bulgaria.

#29 WanderingAuthor

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 19:53

I do not think that this is an authentic Third Riech item. My main concern is the poor quality of workmanship of the clip. The eagle as mentioned before is (bleep). I've collected enough of this stuff and this is below par. If you look at anything Hitler presented to anyone it was always of superb quality.
I also think that Montblanc would not allow such poor workmanship leave it's shop. Notice how the lettering is uneven. Montblanc would have done it better.

There has been thousands of fake 3rd Riech medals, uniforms, and fantasy pieces coming out of the eastern European countries.

Bottom line for me, this was hammered out by some back room shop in Bulgaria.


It might well be a fake. My point was that, since it reads "Montblanc", it was either made by them or it is a fake - it is not a generic, "aftermarket" clip.

On the other hand - didn't Montblanc have cheaper lines of pens in 1939 than we're used to thinking of? And, as the Nazis geared up for war, high quality industrial machinery and skilled workmen were in short supply. So I'm not sure about the workmanship.

As for Hitler presenting this to anyone, I agree. Anything he personally presented would have been of much higher quality than this. If it is authentic, I would imagine it was presented to visitors barely important enough to be given a cheap souvenir - and given by some low-level functionary whose greatest claim to fame was that he once shook Hitler's hand.

Again, it might well be a fake. But every nation, every group, hands out (bleep) - the difference is in the status of the presenter and the recipient. So I don't think the fact this is crude (bleep) automatically rules it out. It could have been something made as a rush order for the Mayor of East Stinkpot in Prussia to hand out to a group of visiting schoolkids on the occasion of the one thousandth anniversary of the founding of the local pig farm. (I intend no disrespect to Germans here; my satire is aimed at the calibre of event I imagine this might have been linked to. If it is genuine.) And if the Mayor of East Stinkpot had just enough connections, Montblanc might have preferred to satisfy him with this junk than refuse him outright. Especially since a refusal to make an item with this type of insignia might have been "politically sensitive". I'm not saying this is what happened, only that it is a possible scenario.

I still think the only solid answer possible here would be if the owner were to have the pen disassembled, to see what "story" the internal parts told. I don't imagine anyone who'd make that bad a fake - and if it is a fake, it is a crappy one - would have gone to the trouble of making those internal parts very plausible at all.
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the Wandering Author

#30 ANM

ANM

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 22:24

I thought long and hard about what I was thinking about that clip before I posted it because of the Montblanc on the clip and that the cap ring appears to match. But the clip looks very much like it is soldered onto a spring clip and could be slipped off of whatever pen it came with and onto another. Montblanc, in the '30's was just another pen maker. It wasn't until the 1980's that they started positioning themselves in the luxury class. By then fountain pens were mostly a luxury item anyway. They had been replaced almost entirely with much much cheaper writing instruments. These could have been made separately and sold as a novelty by Montblanc. I am not saying it is likely, just a possibility. The Montblanc on the clip also suggests the possibility that it was made more recently with it intent to deceive.

Edited by ANM, 13 March 2011 - 22:27.

And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time. TS Eliot