Sorting Out The Tortoise Pelikans

[elcincogrande]

I was looking at Richard Binder's website, and the Pelikan 400 Tortoise caught my eye. I recall a while back seeing some posts about Pelikan tortoises that had white caps. I've done some Google image searches, and find images of various kinds of Pelikan tortoises, probably vintage pens.

 

Perhaps there's already a post about this topic, but could somebody give me a primer on the different Pelikan tortoises: classifications (400, 415??), colors, and years made? Also, were tortoises ever made in a 600 or 800?

 

As I said, the new 400 Tortoise really caught my eye. I'm hesitant to make a purchase, though, because my preference is always toward pens with silver/rhodium/chrome furniture rather than gold. I guess gold looks good with the tortoise coloring.

 

Thanks for the information.

[gyasko]

I'm not up on the modern pens, but i do know that the tortoise m800 is a super rare pen that you will be lucky to find at any price. The tortoise 400-400nn may not be quite as common the green stripe versions, but they aren't super rare, either. They look like their green stripe counterparts, except that the cap may be brown. The brown is pretty dark, and i have trouble telling it apart from the black caps on my green stripe pens. Also, assuming that sellers know their pens, the M in front of the 400 is an indication that it's a modern Pelikan.

 

Ways to distinguish the vintage from (most) modern Pelikans are by trim rings (none on the vintage pens) and the feed (vertical rather than horizontal). The very earliest m400s look almost identical to the vintage ones except for the feed. The nib stamping may be different as well, but it ranges from very different to almost identical. The 400nn has a distinctive rounded styling that the modern pens don't have, so that one should be fairly obvious. I think it's slightly longer than the other versions as well. The 400n is sort of half way between that and the 400, but you probably won't encounter that many of them.

[DennyS]

I just saw the new Pelikan Tortoise 400 last week in a magazine and began looking into it. I have been considering an 800 model but really like the looks of the Tortoise. I understand it to be a limited production item.

[PJohnP]

Complicated discussion, very complicated...

 

There have been M200, M250, M400, "new" M400/M415, M800, and putative M600 versions of the typical tortoise striated pen in the "modern" line of Pelikans (i.e., post 1980 for discussion).

 

The "vintage" line of Pelikans had several different iterations of the Pelikan across quite different design types (e.g., 100 and 101 and 400->400NN series from the 'thirties up to the late 'fifties/early 'sixties).

 

In addition, there are other "tortoise" models with a white/honey and green/vermeil tortoise line of colour combinations. I'll focus on the "traditional" brown-gold striated colour and deep dark brown cap for this discussion.

 

It's complicated because the more recent models have some large and subtle differences in the lines. The M200/M250 lines generally had the domed cap, where the M400 have the more recent GP crown cap. But the trim cap and body rings have differed to a fair degree in the M200/M250 lines (e.g., having/not having a ring at the blind cap, single/double rings at the cap lip area). There seem to have been perhaps several vendor specific versions of the M200/M250 designs, and one will sometimes find odd models that may, or may not, be "Frankenpens" (i.e., a pen built from different trim lines into a single pen). There's been a substantial debate here in FPN on this subject.

 

Personally, I have three M200/M250 models pens that I've purchased from different reputable people, and each pen in "unique" in that these have slightly different trim lines with the cap and blind cap rings, as well as each having the domed cap consistently. To make things more confusing on those series of pens, some came with gold plated nibs, some with 14kt gold monocolour nibs, and the nibs have not always been consistent by trim line in the ones that I've seen.

 

There have been some trim lines of the M400 series that have been comparatively uncommon and the prices for the sets were many hundreds of dollars (hence I have M200/250 series and a 400NN), but these have not been as widely sold since the more recent M415 (which is also confusingly called a tortoise M400 by some vendors - I can't authoritatively say which is correct). Prices on most of the pens have been a bit lower since the new M415/M400 model came out. There has been an extremely active discussion about the "limited" nature of the M415/M400 model, as well as many fascinating speculations about the cap chicks and the nib chicks, which may, or may not, have strong relevance to deciding on getting the new trim line tortoise pen for people.

 

If you look over at Rick Propas' posts here in the Pelkikan sub-forum, he has a lovely M800 series of pens and pencil that he acquired this year. Extremely unusual and very fairly called "rare", resulting in a premium price for this line.

 

I've read several comments over the years about an M600 series Tortoise set, but have not seen one. However, the tortoise M800 was debated as mythical by some folks over the years, and several have cropped up in the last twenty-four months, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. Vendors in Spain supposedly commissioned the M800 series, while vendors have been responsible for M250 and M400 models, some in relatively small numbers. The M600 is, at this moment, pretty much an unconfirmed model type in Tortoise.

 

 

The bottom line at the moment is that there is an M415/M400 line of the brown-gold tortoise striated pen that's currently available new at a pretty reasonable price through a goodly number of vendors, or you can relatively easily find M200/M250 or M400 (previous model) tortoise pens used here in FPN or over on eBay or from vendors on the internet (many names - no insult to any of these by not mentioning them specifically). I've purchased mine from all of these with success. Alternately, vintage 400NNs are available in decent condition (and they hold a ton o' ink) for pretty comparable prices to the new line of M415/M400. The M800 and some of the previous model M400s typically will go for a significantly higher amount of money compared with the new M415/M400 line.

 

Nibs for the pens are another, entirely different, but even more complex a discussion, and you'll find a lengthy list of threads on which nib type, which vendor, which nibmeister's custom grind (or no grind but adjusted or "factory stock"), which materials such monotone/duotone gold, 12kt vs. 14kt vs. 18kt vs. 20kt or gold plated, is the "best".

 

Now, wasn't that simple ? <wry smile>

 

 

 

John P.

Edited October 10, 2009 by PJohnP

[elcincogrande]

Thanks, all, for the information. It's a little complicated. I know the one I saw on Binder's website is attractive. That's about all I can conclude at this time. If I got it, though, I was just curious about what other tortoise-type Pelikans that are out there that I might be passing up.

[daenghafez]

 

I've read several comments over the years about an M600 series Tortoise set, but have not seen one. However, the tortoise M800 was debated as mythical by some folks over the years, and several have cropped up in the last twenty-four months, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. Vendors in Spain supposedly commissioned the M800 series, while vendors have been responsible for M250 and M400 models, some in relatively small numbers. The M600 is, at this moment, pretty much an unconfirmed model type in Tortoise.

 

John P.

 

The M600 tortoise - third pen from left.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m188/kewlfly/190520091414.jpg

 

The M600 tortoise - fourth pen from left.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m188/kewlfly/190520091437.jpg

[Seville]

And just to make things ummmmm clearer http://www.ruettinger-web.de/e-index.html for tons of information.

 

Philip

[elcincogrande]

 

I've read several comments over the years about an M600 series Tortoise set, but have not seen one. However, the tortoise M800 was debated as mythical by some folks over the years, and several have cropped up in the last twenty-four months, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. Vendors in Spain supposedly commissioned the M800 series, while vendors have been responsible for M250 and M400 models, some in relatively small numbers. The M600 is, at this moment, pretty much an unconfirmed model type in Tortoise.

 

John P.

 

The M600 tortoise - third pen from left.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m188/kewlfly/190520091414.jpg

 

The M600 tortoise - fourth pen from left.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m188/kewlfly/190520091437.jpg

 

So are the M600 tortoises you display newer pens, or are they vintage? If newer, where can one find an M600?

[PJohnP]

The M600 tortoise - third pen from left...

 

The M600 tortoise - fourth pen from left.

 

Very nice, and thank you for posting the photos.

 

Not too many of those around(and if there are, I'd like to know where!)

 

 

 

John P.

[daenghafez]

 

So are the M600 tortoises you display newer pens, or are they vintage? If newer, where can one find an M600?

 

The M600 tortoise shown was a pre 1997 issued pen. This M600 old style came with an engraved GP crown cap and have the same size with M400 pen. This pen can also be differentiated with a double ring cap band and single cap band on the turning knob.

 

There is no current M600 tortoise. The latest and ongoing tortoise model that Pelikan issues would be the M415 brown tortoise, M450 tortoise with vermeil cap gold and knob and M400 white tortoise.

[daenghafez]

Not too many of those around(and if there are, I'd like to know where!)

 

John P.

 

This M600 tortoise does appear in R. Martini's auction website once a while.

[RoyalBlue]

I was looking at Richard Binder's website, and the Pelikan 400 Tortoise caught my eye. I recall a while back seeing some posts about Pelikan tortoises that had white caps. I've done some Google image searches, and find images of various kinds of Pelikan tortoises, probably vintage pens.

 

Perhaps there's already a post about this topic, but could somebody give me a primer on the different Pelikan tortoises: classifications (400, 415??), colors, and years made? Also, were tortoises ever made in a 600 or 800?

 

As I said, the new 400 Tortoise really caught my eye. I'm hesitant to make a purchase, though, because my preference is always toward pens with silver/rhodium/chrome furniture rather than gold. I guess gold looks good with the tortoise coloring.

 

Thanks for the information.

 

Hi Elcincogrande,

I only know about the one on RB's site, as I bought one! It is beautiful and the nib writes better than any other pen I have, including other RB pens - and they are all pretty much magical already, so it's all rose-tinted spectacles for me with this pen. I don't know anything about the other brown tortoises but this one looks lovely; the brown on the cap and section and filler knob is rich and dark. This is one colour that to my eye would not look nearly so good in silver as it does with the gold finish. And there are many very good brown inks available, so you can enjoy matching them up to the pen. I believe this modern brown tortoise with the 14k gold nib is designated M415.

 

HTH a bit at least,

Tom

Edited October 11, 2009 by RoyalBlue