Fountain Pen & Pencil Combo's

[sztainbok]

Thank you David,

Please let me know how to fix the pencil once you figured it out.

Thank you,

Victor.

[rhr]

John,

 

I have one possible candidate for the Eagle combo in Volume 1 of my patent book, but that volume has not been published, yet. I need to see the pencil mechanisms from the combos owned by Victor and David for comparison before I commit to any positive identification. Do you think you guys could remove the pencil mechanisms from the barrels of your combos and post pictures? David, if you have one apart on your workbench right now, could you post pics of the mechanism taken apart?

 

As for the claim that Eagle made the first combo in the 1890s, the actual quote from the Fischler and Schneider blue book follows. "Another popular pen was their pen/pencil combination similar to that which most other pen makers produced in the 1930s. Eagle produced their first pen/pencil combination in 1890. They had been making dip-pen/pencil combinations since 1870. This pen/pencil combination was a simple black hard rubber item." Now, it's unfortunate that they didn't include a picture of this "simple black hard rubber item". If it has a safety cap and raised threads like the one in Victor's photo, then it dates to the 1910s at the earliest. If there is such a combo produced in the early 1890s, then it would have to have a straight slip cap, or a cone slip cap if produced in the very late 1890s or early 1900s. Perhaps Fischler and Schneider were guessing at the age of the Eagle combos in the absence of sufficient information. It all depends upon what that "simple black hard rubber item" that they mention but do not illustrate looks like. Henry Gostony, of the ballpoint book, sold a well-illustrated Eagle combo on Ebay in 2005, and Daniel Kirchheimer posted a picture of his Eagle combo on Pentrace in 2005, but those two had threaded caps as well.

 

The only Eagle "combinations" from the 1890s I have found so far are the ones in the pictures below, but they aren't exactly "simple black hard rubber items". One is a pen-and-wooden-pencil-and-jack-knife-case from 1892, but not a fountain pen and pencil combo, and the other one is a brass-barreled, glass-cartridge fountain pen with a lead holder on its barrel end from the early 1890s. Perhaps that's what they meant. These metal pens were usually japanned black, but the japanning usually wore off.

 

George Kovalenko.

 

 

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/rhrpen/Eagle1892combo.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/rhrpen/comboEagle.jpg

Edited October 23, 2008 by rhr

[antoniosz]

Actually see also:

 

D59,945 Combination Fountain Pen and Pencil, Stanislaw Zdanowicz, Filed May 26, 1921 Issued Dec. 6 1921

 

An interesting quote from an earlier publication.

 

"PREMIUM OFFER. The October and November issues of The Clerk announced a premium offer of a diamond point combination fountain pen and pencil, to be given any member securing two new members for the Brotherhood. " Vol XI, Issue 12. Dec. 1912 p. 410.

[rhr]

Antonios, thanks for pointing out design no. D59,945. I chose not to index the word "combination" in my book because it was used to describe so many disparate and unrelated writing instruments. I then forgot to annotate that design as a "combo" in my book in order for the indexing program to pick it up, and that's also why I didn't find it earlier today when I searched my patent database for the word.

 

I would also like to thank Antonios for pointing out Gilliam's UK combo patent on the EPO website in time for me to include it in Volume 2 of my book.

 

George Kovalenko.

 

Edited October 23, 2008 by rhr

[antoniosz]

Dont mention it George.

What about 1,334,860 which is in the book ?

 

[rhr]

There are actually quite a few combos before 1922, but I don't think all of them were manufactured and merchandised. I wasn't trying to be comprehensive in my posts above, but merely concentrating on the cluster of combo patents around 1925. I did extract and prepare a list of all the combo patents and designs in both volumes of my book a while ago, and the list is almost a hundred strong. The earliest one goes back to 1819. ;~)

 

George Kovalenko.

 

Edited October 23, 2008 by rhr

[sztainbok]

George,

Here is a picture of the pencil mechanism. It appears broken as David indicated.

Victor

 

 

[rhr]

Thanks for posting the picture, Victor.

 

Well, it's not the patent I was thinking of, but here’s a more likely one. It's a patent for a mechanical pencil with a spiral mechanism assigned to the Eagle Pencil Co., and it's said to be a "pro- and re-pelling" pencil in the specifications of the patent, 863,258 . I don't think it's the right one, but it's an example of the same spiral-mechanism type. They could have used one of their older patents, but this one is the nearest in time to the hard rubber Eagle combo. The patent mentioned within the specifications, 33,034, doesn't help much because it's not a spiral type.

 

First of all, Victor and David, is the pencil mechanism in your combos a pro-pell and re-pell type? And can you see inside the tube still inside the barrel? Does it have a spiral groove to engage with the teeth of the lead carrier sticking out through the spiral slot in the inner, co-axial tube attached to the tip?

 

The difference between yours and the one in the patent is the slight twist in the slotted lead carrier tube in yours, but this was probably done to increase the speed of the pro-pell and re-pell action. It's as if they took part B in Fig.3 of the patent and gave it a twist.

 

This inner spiral tube looks like it was once attached to the outer spiral tube by a crimp at the end of the inner tube. You can see an example of this crimp in the above patent, at the point marked "y", called the "annular shoulders on the guide tube". These annular shoulders seem to have been uncrimped when the two were separated. When the tip is removed from the barrel, the two spiral tubes should come out together, but very likely the outer tube is seated and gripped too tightly inside a hole inside the barrel, and when the tip is removed, the crimp gives out before the hold on the whole mechanism gives up its grip on the outer tube.

 

The solution is to find a mandrel that fits snugly inside the outer tube so that it can be gripped without squashing and collapsing the tube end. The smooth end of an appropriately sized drill bit would probably do just fine. Then the inner tube has to be seated back inside the outer tube and recrimped. This probably won't hold, and will separate again, so the solution is probably to solder or weld the tip after recrimping. And you'd want to use a hard solder like brass or silver rather than lead.

 

This is all contingent upon your mechanisms being of the same type as the one in the patent. It also depends upon whether you want to alter your pens from their original states. Perhaps leaving them alone is the best course, if you want to maintain the value of your combos as collector's pieces. I prefer the challenge, myself. ;~)

 

George Kovalenko.

 

Edited October 24, 2008 by rhr

[Vintagepens]

Sorry, no pics yet.

Let me assure you, however, that George has the right patent.

These pencil mechanisms were made out of very light brass, so while it seems that there are two helically-formed tubes, in reality, the inner one started out with a simple straight slot. Over time, the repeated torque applied to the front end of the pencil deforms the inner tube, leaving it twisted. This in turn causes the lead carrier to bind, leading to further deformation. The outer tube is a very tight press fit into the hard rubber barrel; I believe some mastic or shellac was also used to hold it in place. A tight-fitting metal rod inserted into the tube and heated will assist in removal.

 

The patent leaves open exactly how the inner tube is to be connected to the outer tube at point "y", but it is apparent from the examples I've seen that the inner tube was equipped with four tabs at its end which were bent outwards and over, in order to allow the tubes to rotate in relation to each other, without permitting the inner tube to move longitudinally in relation to the outer. What I am not certain about is whether these tabs were intended to bear directly upon the inner face of the outer tube, or if (as I suspect) they bore instead upon a thin washer of the same diameter of that outer tube, which would greatly reduce the tendency of the tabs to bind when the inner tube rotates.

 

In any event, the tab solution is inherently weak. In the most recent example I've been working on, the tabs were quite bent and fatigued, so I trimmed the inner side of the outer tube by about 2mm and cut a corresponding 2mm length of brass tubing of the same outer diameter (though of greater wall thickness), soldering the latter piece to the end of the inner tube. This is the standard method of construction found on Victorian propelling pencil mechanisms, and is very strong.

 

Note that the inner tube is usually soldered to a metal plug that is press-fitted into the hard rubber nose cone. It should also be noted that the inner tube should be untwisted as part of the restoration.

 

 

 

[antoniosz]

Here is a combo ad from March 1909 p. 32 from Popular Mechanics on Google (thanks David for pointing the availability of the magazine on Google books).

George does that address tell you anything?

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/azavalia/comboad-p32-March1909-PopMech.jpg

Edited December 13, 2008 by antoniosz

[sztainbok]

This thread has been dorment for a while, but I am still interested in the topic. We could conclude that the earliest self filling Combo is the glass cartridge Eagle, going by the information in this thread.

 

Any guess as to whou would have made the first lever filled combo?

 

Were there any sleeve filled or crescent filled combos?

[Vintagepens]

Not to pick nits, but most people don't regard cartridge-pens as self-fillers. The usual understanding is that a "self-filler" can fill from a bottle, without any extra devices.

[Happy Harry]

Post #5 mentions Good Service (~1927) with a D on the lever. I've seen later '30's with the same D, sort of mid range types bottom 2nd tier at best,nice plastics and clearly not a National product so any ideas as to who may have been the maker or do I just put them down as another low end maker that disappeared without a trace?.

[ftp249]

I was very excited when I saw the prices of pens but than I realized: dollar use to worth much more back than!

[rhr]

Not to pick nits, but most people don't regard cartridge pens as self-fillers. The usual understanding is that a "self-filler" can fill from a bottle, without any extra devices.

Okay, I'll pick that nit. Some people try to be economical by refilling their cartridges from an ink bottle with a syringe. But other more impatient people refill their cartridge pens by dipping the nib in an ink bottle and squeezing the cartridge. Now, of course the cartridges never refill completely, but that's not the point. And the cartridges will eventually crack and leak from all the stress, but they do last quite a long time. So by your definition, cartridge pens can be self-fillers.

 

George Kovalenko.

 

Edited April 12, 2012 by rhr

[Happy Harry]

Not to pick nits, but most people don't regard cartridge pens as self-fillers. The usual understanding is that a "self-filler" can fill from a bottle, without any extra devices.

Okay, I'll pick that nit. Some people try to be economical by refilling their cartridges from an ink bottle with a syringe. But other more impatient people refill their cartridge pens by dipping the nib in an ink bottle and squeezing the cartridge. Now, of course the cartridges never refill completely, but that's not the point. And the cartridges will eventually crack and leak from all the stress, but they do last quite a long time. So by your definition, cartridge pens can be self-fillers.

 

George Kovalenko.

 

 

Well some people use logic in a very "open way" !!

 

Put simply, by definition and design a cartridge is a single use item. Reusing or re cycling does not change the original intent of the cartridge, it's just a use not originally envisaged by the manufacturer.

 

A converter is by definition and design is a self filling device to replace a "single use" cartridge and to be a self filling device.

 

What this means is that in general terms a cartridge pen is not a self filler by definition, that the cartridge can be re cycled does not change the definition or intent.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Happy Harry

[sztainbok]

Not to pick nits, but most people don't regard cartridge pens as self-fillers. The usual understanding is that a "self-filler" can fill from a bottle, without any extra devices.

Okay, I'll pick that nit. Some people try to be economical by refilling their cartridges from an ink bottle with a syringe. But other more impatient people refill their cartridge pens by dipping the nib in an ink bottle and squeezing the cartridge. Now, of course the cartridges never refill completely, but that's not the point. And the cartridges will eventually crack and leak from all the stress, but they do last quite a long time. So by your definition, cartridge pens can be self-fillers.

 

George Kovalenko.

 

 

Well some people use logic in a very "open way" !!

 

Put simply, by definition and design a cartridge is a single use item. Reusing or re cycling does not change the original intent of the cartridge, it's just a use not originally envisaged by the manufacturer.

 

A converter is by definition and design is a self filling device to replace a "single use" cartridge and to be a self filling device.

 

What this means is that in general terms a cartridge pen is not a self filler by definition, that the cartridge can be re cycled does not change the definition or intent.

 

I have to accept that the glass-cartridge Eagle combo is not a self filling pen. Can we attempt to determine who manufactured the first self filling combo?

[Buzz J]

I have to accept that the glass-cartridge Eagle combo is not a self filling pen. Can we attempt to determine who manufactured the first self filling combo?

 

Lacking any sort of helpful documentation, I turn to observation (with its obvious shortcomings).

 

I have lever filling hard rubber combos in the following brand names: Gaydoul, Twinpoint, Diamond Point, Salz, Selmar, Wonder and Waterman. Certainly there are others, and there is a good chance the initial self filler would be among them.

 

Any thoughts?

John

[ianpw]

I have to accept that the glass-cartridge Eagle combo is not a self filling pen. Can we attempt to determine who manufactured the first self filling combo?

 

Lacking any sort of helpful documentation, I turn to observation (with its obvious shortcomings).

 

I have lever filling hard rubber combos in the following brand names: Gaydoul, Twinpoint, Diamond Point, Salz, Selmar, Wonder and Waterman. Certainly there are others, and there is a good chance the initial self filler would be among them.

 

Any thoughts?

John

 

I have a whole clutch of English BCHR combos - Pencilla, Wyvern, Brittanic, Rothman, Twofold and Plus Four, the earliest patent date that I have is 21-7-19. I seem to recall that Max Davis started a brand listing for combos.

Going back to Mr. Schnell heres a picture of the four Schnells that I have in my collection, pride of place goes to the big demonstrator version.

 

Ian

[Beechwood]

I have a nice Crusader combo in the classifieds right now, a slimline pencil pen combo. I know that Visconti looked to revive the idea in the 90s, perhaps a pen/pencil combo is overdue for a modern version