Dip Pen Nibs: The Horrible Truth

[Fox in the Stars]

Getting into fountain pens, I've also been playing with my dip pens, and have several living in my holder on my desk.

 

Thing is, I went all the way through college using the Hunt and Speedball nibs, because... Well because they were what you could get for goodnessake! But now that I understand something about the feel of a good fountain pen (heck, I put a Waterman Ideal #2 nib on my "dipless" dip pen), I fooled with them again, and was shocked and horrified to discover...

 

Hunt/Speedball nibs are TERRIBLE! Nasty scratchy P.O.S.es! 0_0*

 

And I know this especially because I happened to have a stray William Mitchell and some Brause nibs laying about; I'd just never done a head-to-head comparison before. After some fussing to figure out how to position the Mitchell's reservoir, these just blow the common brand out of the water!

 

Trouble is, they're so much harder to find, and a lot of the shops I found online that do carry them are out of England (an expensive proposition for me Stateside). I found Paper & Ink Arts, although I wish they had more images, and Wet Paint has some of the Brauses... Anybody have good leads on where to find these?

 

Also, what dip pen nibs do you prefer, and why?

 

 

It'll be so cool when Pendemonium gets their dip pen nib listings up... In the next few weeks, I might have a chance to swing by their store!

[Shangas]

I quite like messing around with dip pens. I went out last week and bought a new one. And then this week I went off to the Pen Show and bought an inkwell for it! Hahahaha.

 

Referring to BRANDS, I don't know. The only brand I've seen so far is the one for my own dip-pen. It was this cheap calligraphy set that came with this small metal box for storing the spare nibs. And on the box, it says:

 

"D. Leonardt & Co."

 

Birmingham (Not sure if that's Birmingham Alabama USA or Birmingham UK).

 

I only use one nib out of the five which was in the kit, but that nib is wonderful. It's pretty smooth when held right and it has a rather considerable 'sweet spot' for a dip-pen nib.

 

I'm currently considering buying more spare nibs just in case.

 

----------

 

Apologies for hijacking the thread momentarily, but I have a question regarding dip pens and their nibs, and since this thread is here and is about dip-pen nibs, I saw no reason to make another one yaddayaddayadda...question:

 

A stereotypical image of a dip-pen/quill is to have it sitting upright inside an inkwell/bottle of ink, nib-down (Any google search about 'quill' or 'dip pen' will show you a picture of what I mean). My question is - Does positioning a dip-pen/quill like this - in a bottle of ink/inkwell, nib-down - Does this damage the nib? Because I know from experience that dip-pen nibs are RIDICULOUSLY fragile. And I don't want to attempt this and then find that I've broken my nib.

[Pariah Zero]

Getting into fountain pens, I've also been playing with my dip pens, and have several living in my holder on my desk.

 

Also, what dip pen nibs do you prefer, and why?

 

I've tried two dip pens. One rapidly made it to the waste bin, the other I sorta like.

 

The one that made it to the waste bin was a $5 pen from Pendemonium, with an Esterbrook nib, IIRC. The only ink I could write with that pen was Noodler's Polar Black (Every other ink I tried was too 'thick' and wouldn't even flow when pen was put to paper.) It was horribly toothy, and not a lot of fun to use. I figure part of that is (no doubt) user error. It made it to the waste bin quickly because I accidentally broke the nib from the body, and didn't feel too inclined to get more nibs & figure out how to replace 'em.

 

The next pen was a J. Herbin glass dip pen. Unlike the one with the Esterbrook nib, there is absolutely no flex (go figure - a twirled glass nib. Glass isn't very flexible at room temperature.) It's also fairly scratchy; the box mentions customizing this with some #400 sandpaper, which I haven't tried yet. But I can write with this pen, and it works with any of the inks I have. It's also pretty easy to clean - when the nib is clear, it's clean.

 

After my own experience with dip pens, and after looking at some antique documents written with dip pens, I can see why fountain pens eventually took over - it's annoying to see the writing go from dark & bold to fine & light and back as the scribe dips the pen and the ink runs out. Dipping the pen is a minor annoyance in comparison, actually.

 

That being said, I was very surprised with the fineness of the lines used in the antique documents. It was run of the mill logs, journals, letters, etc. But the lines were incredibly fine (with tiny letters), with quite a bit of variation in line thickness for individual letters, much like modern calligraphy. It became obvious that when the document was written, penmanship was different than it is now - more artistic - I figure the tiny writing is in no small part from the price and scarcity of paper.

[trencherman]

It looks as though you guys have not discovered Japanese cartoon G nibs. Does not corrode and long lasting, holds several lines of ink (depending on size of writing and absorbency of paper), consistent with delivery of ink, smooth (no scratching specially on up strokes) and so do not get caught on the paper fibres and spit back ink, flexible (capable of writing hair lines and thick and thin lines in response to pressure. I order mine here: http://www.johnnealbooks.com/prod_detail_list/84 but you can find a lot of artist’s supplies on line that sell them in multiples.

 

There are also quite a few modern nibs lately that have been developed jointly with present-day penmen that are aimed at duplicating the performance of vintage nibs enhanced with modern advantages such as consistency and smoothness. Still, nothing stops me from using my fifty cents Hunt’s nibs that I go through as quickly as personal linen.

 

 

 

 

[Fox in the Stars]

Yeah, I definitely have my eye on some G-nibs; the places I linked both have them.

 

Where do you find the said modern nibs? Any specific examples, names?

[rikki]

Yeah. Hunt can get away with almost zero quality control because they've pretty much monopolized the USA market...and the price is right. I've read in several places that approximately one in every three crowquills (102) is complete rubbish.

 

...Not all of their nibs are junk, though. I find their Imperial (101) and School (56) nibs suit my hand, and it's pretty hard to screw up something like the 512 or 513EF.

 

I second the suggestion of the Japanese nibs, having used the "G-Pen" nib myself. They're very sturdy, and extremely easy to clean compared to the bronze-finished Hunt nibs.

What Wet Paint says about these is accurate; I'll add that—IIRC—any "Deleter" nibs you come across are just repackaged versions of the three manufacturers they mention.

You may also want to check online anime stores for these, under their "Manga Supplies" section or similar. Reason I say this is that a B&M anime store is actually where I got my G-Pen nibs, and they were cheaper than the retailers you've got linked. (3 for $3.99)

 

...Couldn't tell you anything about Brause nibs, unfortunately.

[trencherman]

For one, there is N120 Principal EF in the page that I linked. A definite improvement over the Hunt equivalent with the same exact shape and piercing. You seem to be already familiar with N69 Brause Rose but N93 Hiro is another excellent modern replacement for any of your extra-fine conventional dip nibs. Read their description and you are likely to come accross more. Buy your nibs in person so that you can pick and choose good specimens. No danger though of getting a dud if you follow the suggestion below about anime supply stores selling bags of G nibs for a lot less. Each one in the bag seem to be consistently good.

 

If you want to economize too with ink when just doodling and doing drills, pick any ink with saturated pigment, add double its quantity of water and a pinch or two of gum arabic to thicken it back to original consistency.

 

 

[EventHorizon]

Not sure if your into vintage or not but Esterbrook has oodles of different types of nibs for dipping if you want to investigate that. As for something modern I wouldn't be much help other than I always thought this LAMY calligraphy pen looked cool.

[caliken]

Also, what dip pen nibs do you prefer, and why?

I prefer Gillott 303 nibs (vintage, where possible) for most of my work as they are very smooth with excellent flexibility and with instant 'spring back' when pressure is released.

 

The only other modern nib which compares, in my opinion, is the Leonardt Principal EF.

 

caliken

Edited November 26, 2007 by caliken

[Fox in the Stars]

EventHorizon, I have a black Safari with the 1.1 stub nib; I wanted mine to look more like a writing pen. I like it so far as I can tell, but the ink I've got in it (Diamine Blue-Black) is really balky; I need to flush it out and try something else...

 

Thanks for the suggestions! I'd somehow missed the links to "turn the page" at John Neal; now I'm much more excited there. ^_^;

[captnemo]

Hmm, since we have some dip pen people here, I'll ask a question that been bugging me.

 

I have three dip pens, all vintage, unknown pedigree. I picked them up as an adjunct to buying lots of FPs from estate sales. They write okay but I find that they only hold enough ink to write about three or four words, and of those four words, the first word is very heavy and too wet and the last word is fading to nothing.

 

The Palmer book states that one should be able to write more than a page with one dip and that one should practice in order to write, I forget now, some seemingly outrageous amount of text, like 3,000 words, with just one dip of the pen. In Palmer's book he describes competitions between students for how much they can write with one dip.

 

Clearly, something is not adding up here and I'm interested to learn the truth.

[blueiris]

I'm new at this, so I don't use my dip pen nibs as a calligrapher would, so I don't have as much control in using dip pen nibs. Having tried the Gillott 303, I can understand why Caliken enjoys it (the examples of his work are simply amazing), but I just don't have the technique to keep the Gillott 303 from catching on upstrokes. It's more scratchy than I prefer, because I am more accustomed to regular fountain pens, including vintage pens with flexible nibs.

 

With that in mind, after experimenting with a small assortment of nibs from Paper and Ink Arts, I reach most for Nikko G, Brause 361, and Brause EF66. They are not as soft as some dip nibs are (such as Gillott 303, Hunt 99, Leonardt EF Principal, etc), but they're firmer and more sturdy-feeling around curves and on upstrokes. For my limited dip pen purposes, I can get an effect similar to my vintage flex fountain pens from the Nikko G and Brause 361 and EF66. The Nikko G and Brause 361 are similar in overall size, but the Nikko G gives very nice hairlines; the Brause 361 writes a little larger overall, but it's not for huge writing, either. The Brause EF66 is tiny and more delicate in appearance, and I use a Mitchell crowquill holder for it that Paper and Ink Arts sells for it (it fits into a regular holder if you mush the collar a bit, but I didn't want to do that). It's a bit softer in the flex than the other two, so it's a completely different feel when combined with the small size of the nib.

 

To Captnemo: I don't know the answer, but I can compare my experiences with yours. I have a dip pen nib that has a built-in reservoir (it's a Speedball B-6), and it can write for at least a page on one dip. With my non-reservoir dip nibs, I can write up to a sentence on one dip. To avoid having all the ink drop on the first few words, I tap the nib on the ink bottle neck, so that the ink covers the nib but isn't holding a big pool of it, and I don't flex out the nib while writing if I'm trying to stretch the number of words on a dip. Also, when my dip pen nibs were new, some didn't hold as much ink because they seemed coated with something that repelled ink. I've heard of cleaning off manufacturing oils from the nibs before first use, and that they perform better after being primed. I don't know if this last bit would apply to your vintage nibs, though.

[jbb]

My favorite dip nibs are: Esterbrook 556, Esterbrook 761, Esterbrook Penesco 505 and Gillott 404.

 

Ebay seller Naragansett sells loads of nibs. I've bought from him quite a few times and he's great.

http://stores.ebay.com/Naragansett_Vintage...9QQftidZ2QQtZkm

 

I attach my flexy dip nibs to old dip-less dip pens (which seem to come with terrible nibs) or onto old desk pens. Adding a feed gives you tons more ink but does not diminish the flex.

[captnemo]

To Captnemo: I don't know the answer, but I can compare my experiences with yours. I have a dip pen nib that has a built-in reservoir (it's a Speedball B-6), and it can write for at least a page on one dip. With my non-reservoir dip nibs, I can write up to a sentence on one dip. To avoid having all the ink drop on the first few words, I tap the nib on the ink bottle neck, so that the ink covers the nib but isn't holding a big pool of it, and I don't flex out the nib while writing if I'm trying to stretch the number of words on a dip. Also, when my dip pen nibs were new, some didn't hold as much ink because they seemed coated with something that repelled ink. I've heard of cleaning off manufacturing oils from the nibs before first use, and that they perform better after being primed. I don't know if this last bit would apply to your vintage nibs, though.

 

Hmm, well it seems that I need to purchase a proper dip pen. Thank you.

 

On your coating issue, I think I've read somewhere that a new dip nib needs to be run lightly through a candle flame to burn of the crud and get down to bare metal. Perhaps others can comment on this. Obviously one does not want to overdo it and mess up the temper of steel (making it softer) or anneal the brass (making it harder). Or maybe nowadays one should just use an aggressive solvent like xylene or something.

[captnemo]

Hunt/Speedball nibs are TERRIBLE! Nasty scratchy P.O.S.es! 0_0*

 

Can't Speedball nibs be smoothed using the same methods we use to smooth our FPs?

[jbb]

On your coating issue, I think I've read somewhere that a new dip nib needs to be run lightly through a candle flame to burn of the crud and get down to bare metal...

I pass my new nibs through a candle flame to remove the coating. I have never noticed a problem with that method and I use my dip pens every day.

[rikki]

Hunt/Speedball nibs can be smoothed like other nibs; they're steel. They also become smoother with use. They'll never be as nice as an FP nib, but when you're paying around $1 USD per nib or less...

 

Given their durability (not anything impressive) and the fact that I don't know how or have the equipment to smooth a nib without widening it, I've never tried doing so myself. I'll have to give it a shot if I ever get a nib with steel burrs remaining from manufacturing. (Hasn't happened yet, but I've heard stories!)

 

There are other things you can do to get the manufacturing oils off dip pen nibs, too. Some people suck on them, some people brush them with a little toothpaste. Washing them with a tiny dab of dishwasher detergent works for me as I don't always have access to fire.

[CD7]

Hunt definitely went to hell in a handbasket.

Every now and then I find an eBay seller who has a variety of nibs, buy a selection and then get more of the ones that worked ok.

Vintage is the only way to go (for me anyway).

http://hans.presto.tripod.com/engli001.html

is a cool site to explore.

Edited November 27, 2007 by CD7

[caliken]

The Palmer book states that one should be able to write more than a page with one dip and that one should practice in order to write, I forget now, some seemingly outrageous amount of text, like 3,000 words, with just one dip of the pen. In Palmer's book he describes competitions between students for how much they can write with one dip.

 

Clearly, something is not adding up here and I'm interested to learn the truth.

captnemo :

This makes no sense to me, either. I've never counted, but I would assume that 30 copperplate words, would be good going.

I suppose it's possible that Spencerian script with its small, fine minuscules with far fewer swelled strokes than copperplate, would allow for more words per fill (?).....just a thought.

[caliken]

 

captnemo & blueiris :

I've never been happy about burning off the oil on new nibs. I just pop them in my mouth for about 2 minutes to remove the oil (there's virtually no taste) and then they work perfectly.

 

Your problem with the nib catching on upstrokes, blueiris, could be for a couple of reasons.Try lowering the nib to paper angle and let the nib glide over the paper on upstrokes without any pressure, letting the weight of the nib alone, do the work.

Also make sure you use a smooth paper such as Character Original high white wove or Viking Imperial white wove.

 

caliken

Edited November 27, 2007 by caliken