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Does Legal Lapis Xerox okay?


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#1 heidi

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 23:26

I need another ink like I need a hole in the head, however to justify another bottle, I wondered if Noodler's Legal Lapis copied okay in a xerox-like machine? I assume it does, but I didn't want to go and buy it, and have our hospital's legal department give me a lot of grief for using an ink that's "illegal" [b/c it doesn't xerox?! but I digress].

Anyway, you lawyers out there probably wouldn't use it, if it didn't xerox well, but I figured I should formally ask.

So, what's the word? yay or nay, on xeroxability?



#2 Chemyst

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 23:33

Yes, it xeroxes fine. Though like yours, my work frowns heavily on the use of anything but black. So, I don't get to use it much.

#3 BillTheEditor

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 23:35

Legal Lapis shows up just fine on copies. Modern copiers have no trouble with most shades of blue. If the hospital is still using a 1980's era copier, shame on them.

My attorney, and the attorneys who handle my relatives' estates, insist that I sign documents in blue. That way, if they get copied on a non-color copier, it is easy to tell the original from the copy. They would not do that if there were any kind of a legal issue.

Once upon a time, the U.S. government required everything to be signed in black ballpoint. I believe those days are probably long gone, but of course bureaucrats and mid-level administrators are always the last to get the word -- or to change their ways.

Edited by BillTheEditor, 26 June 2007 - 23:37.


#4 Chemyst

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 23:40

QUOTE(BillTheEditor @ Jun 26 2007, 07:35 PM) View Post
Once upon a time, the U.S. government required everything to be signed in black ballpoint. I believe those days are probably long gone, but of course bureaucrats and mid-level administrators are always the last to get the word -- or to change their ways.


I can assure you that practice is alive and well in the U.S. Govt. Shame on the person who can't produce a black ballpoint on demand in any federal building. Some upper level types use blue or another "exotic" colour for their own notes, but wouldn't be caught dead signing with anything but a black biro.

#5 BillTheEditor

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 23:47

QUOTE(Chemyst @ Jun 26 2007, 06:40 PM) View Post
QUOTE(BillTheEditor @ Jun 26 2007, 07:35 PM) View Post
Once upon a time, the U.S. government required everything to be signed in black ballpoint. I believe those days are probably long gone, but of course bureaucrats and mid-level administrators are always the last to get the word -- or to change their ways.


I can assure you that practice is alive and well in the U.S. Govt. Shame on the person who can't produce a black ballpoint on demand in any federal building. Some upper level types use blue or another "exotic" colour for their own notes, but wouldn't be caught dead signing with anything but a black biro.

I stand corrected. Thanks (on behalf of all those who would otherwise have been misled by my mistake).

Amazing how little the world changes in the Federal Gov't. Two weeks ago someone told me that the US Navy still expects the properly kitted-out Naval officer to invest in a stock of calling cards (a practice that I thought died in the Reagan era). Today I find out that all the Feds still carry those tacky black "U.S. Government" ballpoint pens. My, my.

#6 HLeopold

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 00:13

QUOTE(BillTheEditor @ Jun 26 2007, 06:35 PM) View Post
Legal Lapis shows up just fine on copies. Modern copiers have no trouble with most shades of blue. If the hospital is still using a 1980's era copier, shame on them.

My attorney, and the attorneys who handle my relatives' estates, insist that I sign documents in blue. That way, if they get copied on a non-color copier, it is easy to tell the original from the copy. They would not do that if there were any kind of a legal issue.

Once upon a time, the U.S. government required everything to be signed in black ballpoint. I believe those days are probably long gone, but of course bureaucrats and mid-level administrators are always the last to get the word -- or to change their ways.


Last week I used my Waterman Charleston with Noodler’s Fox Red and it also copied just fine with a black and white copier. Copies came out nice and crisp. It would have been very close to impossible to tell if the original had been black instead of dark(ish) red.

Noodler’s Hunter Green also copies fine on the same copier.

Harry Leopold
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#7 Johnny Appleseed

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 05:44

Red has never been a problem for photocopiers. Older copiers sometimes had trouble with light blue, the way blue ballpoint sometimes wrote, but red generally came out fine. The new generation of digital copiers has no trouble.

John
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#8 Garageboy

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 17:44

Wasn't there "non-photo" blue?

#9 Chemyst

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 21:59

QUOTE(Garageboy @ Jun 27 2007, 01:44 PM) View Post
Wasn't there "non-photo" blue?


Yes, there is/was a blue that is specially made not to reproduce on certain camera copies. This is primarily for architecture reproduction work, modern office copier "see" this blue. Older camera based systems (maybe in some public libraries?) do not.

#10 Johnny Appleseed

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 22:37

Non-photo blue was a special shade of blue that was designed not to show up on (some?) film. It was also a very light blue so it would not show up easily through Xerography. In addition to certain architectural uses, it's main use was in pre-press production in printing, as you could mark-up a layout with various notations that would not show up on the Stat camera when you made films of the layout. That shade was also used for the blue grid-lines on layout boards, so they would not show on the films.

I think (and someone please correct me if they know more) that the non-photo blue reflected an actual specific wavelength of blue light that would not show up on the film emulsion. I believe the emulsions in Xerography are different. In Xerography, there is a carrier that holds an electrostatic charge. Light causes the surface of the carrier sheet to loose the electrostatic charge, so that the black areas remain charged to pick up charged toner, which is then transferred to the paper and heat-fused. I don't think that non-photo blue is a wavelength "not seen" by a Xerographic process the way that it is for the stat camera - but I think the xerographic process had a harder time picking up blue wavelengths, and the non-photo blue is a low-value (ie. light) color, so it was even harder to pick up. Certainly I remember copying non-photo blue on old Xerox 1075s (late 1980s models), but I had to darken up the contrast a lot to make it show.

John


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You should get a Yink, I think.

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Always looking for pens by Baird-North, Charles Ingersoll, and nibs marked "CHI"

#11 everett102

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 05:43

QUOTE(BillTheEditor @ Jun 26 2007, 11:47 PM) View Post
Today I find out that all the Feds still carry those tacky black "U.S. Government" ballpoint pens. My, my.


I have one of those pens in my pocket right now! (I hate to admit this, but I kind-of like it)

#12 LegalLefty

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 00:59

It copies just fine. I have my clients sign originals in "other than black" ink, and if they are comfortable with a fountain pen, I have one loaded with Legal Lapis ready for them! I also have Iraqi Indigo for the sassy ones.

#13 Shelley

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 01:59

I read in the newspaper that Bush signed someting the other day with felt tip pen, did not say what colour...was not sure if this was a dig or not...
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#14 psfred

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 02:44

The rule against blue ink originated with Xerox copiers in the '60's -- they used metallic selenium drums (or selenium coated drums) for the light sensitive parts, and the selenium is rather insensitive to red -- the result being that blue looked "white" and vanished. This was a problem up to the late 70's when organic film drums were invented, which can be sensitized to all colors of light, not just blue and green.

Modern copiers will usually render blue as lighter than black, but just a cleanly.

Prohibitions on using blue ink are outdated beaurocratic hangovers the policies remain, although the reasons vanished decades ago.

Peter

#15 HesNot

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 02:36

CPA firms still use a non-photo blue pencil for marking up some returns and workpapers.

For some odd reason back in my early career when I actually went to court every so often, judges (all of them) in district court at least always signed documents with old school flair style felt tip pens.

Anyway - I haven't had a problem with any of my inks copying just fine - even Waterman South Seas Blue which is a fairly light blue.
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#16 Bill

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 03:31


QUOTE(BillTheEditor @ Jun 26 2007, 07:35 PM) View Post
...Today I find out that all the Feds still carry those tacky black "U.S. Government" ballpoint pens. My, my.


As a government employee, I would love to walk into the supply room and grab a Pelikan M800 and a bottle of Legal Lapis. Alas, the taxpayers (Hey, I'm one of those, too!) don't agree. crybaby.gif

I've never heard of an issue with the signature ink color on contractual documents in my agency in recent years because all copies are stamped either "ORIGINAL" or "COPY" in blue ink. Of course, there is at least one color copier in nearly each building. ohmy.gif

Bill


#17 Viseguy

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 04:43

What does a U.S. Govt. black ballpoint look like? Something other than a BIC? And what would happen if you filled out a form in, say, Noodler's Black? Would the marshals come and arrest you? ohmy.gif
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#18 churl

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 18:57

I have to thank you guys for this discussion. I too must deal with hospital charts, and I need ink that is both permanent and photocopies. I know that arguments posed to me were not just whether it copied, but how well it copied. So for charting, I've had to darken all my colors. I'm going to have to give legal lapis a shot!

#19 BillTheEditor

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 19:46

QUOTE(Viseguy @ Jul 3 2007, 11:43 PM) View Post
What does a U.S. Govt. black ballpoint look like? Something other than a BIC? And what would happen if you filled out a form in, say, Noodler's Black? Would the marshals come and arrest you? ohmy.gif

Meant to post this long ago. What you can't see is on this photo is the "US Government" imprint. The ones I remember said "Skilcraft - US Government" on them, not sure the new ones have the brand name on them. Also, the old Viet Nam era pens had a single wide chrome band (separate piece of metal, actually, not a stamped imprint) instead of the four narrow bands/two narrow and one broad band in the photo. You might also enjoy the Wikipedia article on "Skilcraft."



Navy and Marine Corps use the black pens. I suppose the Army does too. Also the Post Office. The Air Force gets the blue ones, just because the zoomies are "special." (I was Navy, myself.)

Edited by BillTheEditor, 14 August 2007 - 19:48.


#20 Viseguy

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 03:35

Fascinating, Bill! The pens are quite sleek -- much better looking than I thought they'd be. ohmy.gif
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#21 Ink Stained Wretch

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 10:49

QUOTE(BillTheEditor @ Aug 14 2007, 03:46 PM) View Post
QUOTE(Viseguy @ Jul 3 2007, 11:43 PM) View Post
What does a U.S. Govt. black ballpoint look like? Something other than a BIC? And what would happen if you filled out a form in, say, Noodler's Black? Would the marshals come and arrest you? ohmy.gif

Meant to post this long ago. What you can't see is on this photo is the "US Government" imprint. The ones I remember said "Skilcraft - US Government" on them, not sure the new ones have the brand name on them. Also, the old Viet Nam era pens had a single wide chrome band (separate piece of metal, actually, not a stamped imprint) instead of the four narrow bands/two narrow and one broad band in the photo.


Oh, I remember those single wide band ballpoints. I also remember the army using green ballpoints. And they were not as good as BIC Crystals. But I always supposed that you could use one ballpoint pen for decades while you swapped refills in and out. I didn't stay around that long so I never got a chance to find out for certain.

They really loved green junk in the army way back then.
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#22 haysdownunder

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 00:23

I remember there was a vending machine for these at the library when I was a kid. They cost a quarter, and the librarians all used them too. There was a rotating drum inside with a glass front; you could see all the pens lined up from the clicky end. I finally convinced my mom to buy me one and was surprised at how light they were. I think I was expecting metal, but they were pretty thin plastic. I still have it too!

#23 kiavonne

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 02:41

Meh. I come from a govt family. Seems every relative I have has worked for the federal govt. I remember my mother bringing work home and using the black U.S. Government ballpoints. They actually wrote better than the bics. I work for a federal office now. For a while, we got the white stick bics imprinted U.S. Government. Now, it's plain, still stick bics. We have been getting in other bp's lately though. Pentels. It all comes down to the infamous phrase: "low bid."

We aren't under any restrictions in our offices for the color of ink. Blue and black and red are the norms, people don't think much about asking for other colors. However, I've always bought and used my own office supplies, seeing as "low bid" brings in some pretty cruddy stuff. Nowadays, instead of using black roller balls, I use my fountain pens. I use Legal Lapis, Nikita Red, Air Corp Blue Black, Heart of Darkness, Baystate on occasion, and I use Galileo Manuscript brown on our buff colored official history cards. Haven't heard any complaints, yet.

My blues all photocopy well enough. It was a long time ago when blues appeared "white" and reds faded. Things all come out pretty intact anymore. I remember a long time ago when I used to have to produce reports perfectly (using old word processors) on "camera ready" paper. Everything was justified, within set margins, and the paper was marked with the special blue guidelines that would disappear once the report was "published."
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#24 Tango Yankee

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 18:34

QUOTE(BillTheEditor @ Jun 26 2007, 07:47 PM) View Post
Today I find out that all the Feds still carry those tacky black "U.S. Government" ballpoint pens. My, my.


I've got one of those tacky black/chrome "U.S. Government" fountain pens! thumbup.gif

Of course, I've had and used my share of the ball-point variety during my career. Wish I'd had the fountain pen one while I was still in--imagine the looks I'd have received when I used it! roflmho.gif

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#25 cerberus920

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 04:28

QUOTE(BillTheEditor @ Aug 14 2007, 12:46 PM) View Post
The Air Force gets the blue ones, just because the zoomies are "special." (I was Navy, myself.)


I don't know where you got that we had blue. I was a Zoomie (I passed the ASVAB) & when I was in, all we had were the black Skilcraft w/ a single metal band. They were the worst writers ever invented- a charred stick is better than those things.
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#26 mrdavie

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Posted 19 March 2008 - 00:32

Hey, just sign your fortune away in pencil and fax it to me.