Looking For Ef Or F Nib With Very Smooth Writing

[mc021]

So I'm starting to finally realize what I am looking for in a fountain pen and why I don't use it as often as I like. Most of the time I need a fine or extra fine line for my style of writing. However, I like a very smooth nib with little to no feedback. When I use my xxf binderized nib, it gives the perfect line, but I don't enjoy writing with it and feel like I have to be very conscious about how I write. When I put in a stub (I believe it's a 1.0mm line) that is also binderized, I love the way it writes. However, the line is too thick and I have to write in a very large size for the words to be legible.

 

Now I am under the impression that a nail of a nib would provide the smoothness I am looking for. I had a Carene fine, but that nib still seem too wide for me. Now I am looking at the Edson EF and Carene EF, if my assumption about the nail nibs having the feel I want is correct. Looking for some help in finding that perfect pen for me. Thanks everyone!

[BookCat]

Try Japanese pens. A fairly inexpensive one with a smooth fine nib is Pilot 78g. You can still find this on ebay.

[lmarine0510]

The majority of Parker 51's out there are equipped with fine nibs, and the 2 that I own are exceptionally smooth. As a cheaper option, Pilot <M> nibs (which write like western Fines) are also very smooth, but I have found that Pilot's <F> (which write like western XF) nibs are hit-and-miss, as I have bought 2 that were rough and 1 that was smooth. I also love the fine nibs on vintage Sheaffer pens as I have never come across a rough one, but I cannot vouch for the new ones as I have never owned a newer one.

[mc021]

The majority of Parker 51's out there are equipped with fine nibs, and the 2 that I own are exceptionally smooth. As a cheaper option, Pilot <M> nibs (which write like western Fines) are also very smooth, but I have found that Pilot's <F> (which write like western XF) nibs are hit-and-miss, as I have bought 2 that were rough and 1 that was smooth. I also love the fine nibs on vintage Sheaffer pens as I have never come across a rough one, but I cannot vouch for the new ones as I have never owned a newer one.

 

I have a Pilot Fermo and it came with an F nib. It was actually very good now that you bring it up. It was very smooth and the line was fairly thin. If I could have a choice, I would want it to be XF thin with M smoothness. Too bad I borrow that pen to someone to sign a document and they ruined the tines on it for me by writing very hard and dotting the hell out of the i.

 

So just to clarify, does the stiffness of the nib correlate to its smoothness?

[FountainPages]

For very smooth EF's, look no further than Pilot. My GvFC pens in F and EF are also very smooth and they are not nails by any stretch. My Lamy 2000 in EF is also very smooth though it is quite wider than Japanese.

[lmarine0510]

So just to clarify, does the stiffness of the nib correlate to its smoothness?

In my experience, not necessarily. The smoothest pen that I own is a 1930's Sheaffer Balance JR with a very springy, almost semi-flex, Extra fine nib. With no pressure, it puts down a very thin line but puts down a medium-broad line when some pressure is added. This is a very smooth nib with no feedback or scratch at all.

[mc021]

I see. However, a stiff nib does prevent line variation with pressure. When I am writing for school/work, I tend to write harder as I write faster. This causes me to use a rollerball over a fountain pen a lot. I noticed that If i write with my stub nib, I can still write very fast but need to write larger due to the thickness of the line. I am afraid if I get a flex or semiflex nib that gives me the perfect line with no pressure but then becomes too bold for me liking when I start to write faster. Then I would think a stiff nib would be preferred for my use.

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

+1 for the Carene. At least one stateside Vendor sells nib+section assemblies, and likely can hand grind the nib to the smoothness and 'forgiveness' of a kugel [ball] shape tipping, such as Classic Fountain Pens.

 

Another option is a vintage Manifold nib, such as Esterbrook: their Posting nibs have very narrow lines, zero tine spread, and are purpose-built to withstand considerable pressure. If the EF is too too narrow, their Fine Manifold nibs are really nice.

> Post № 13 shows the material difference between a robust Manifold nib and a standard nib, and depicts the down-stroke EF line width. https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/282704-esterbrook-9450-extra-fine-nib-tines/?p=3243610

 

+1 for the vintage Sheaffer nibs, in particular the conical Triumph nibs with their Waverley shape. Also, use of such nibs might be a good way to transition away from the 'muscle memory' practice of writing with a heavy hand : those nibs run at their 'best' when held at a slightly lower angle to the paper, so encourage one to grasp the pen somewhat higher on the section.

(When I need to write very fast, I write with an even lighter hand: a swooping touch-and-go - leaving words bobbing on the page in the nib's wake.)

 

Bye,

S1

Edited February 26, 2015 by Sandy1

[DonLeone]

I have brain damage (not kidding) so keep that in mind when listening to me. (ok maybe I kid a little bit) <8]

 

I see. However, a stiff nib does prevent line variation with pressure. When I am writing for school/work, I tend to write harder as I write faster. This causes me to use a rollerball over a fountain pen a lot. I noticed that If i write with my stub nib, I can still write very fast but need to write larger due to the thickness of the line. I am afraid if I get a flex or semiflex nib that gives me the perfect line with no pressure but then becomes too bold for me liking when I start to write faster. Then I would think a stiff nib would be preferred for my use.

I have a few solutions to your problems:

 

PROBLEMS

Because you switch between multiple types of pens, you seem to tend to move to BP-style writing over time. Gotta unlearn that. See 1+2

 

You like fine or extra fines, so you probably tend to write smaller font sizes. You may also be spending a lot of time per sentence writing with finger writing, meaning you don't tend to move your wrist or arm enough. This makes you roll the pen a bit to the side, meaning you probably write with one tine on the paper and the other scraping by, resulting in scratch writing. Getting a smoother pen won't fix that. See 3 for pen writing dynamics.

 

SOLUTIONS

1. Go and find all ballpoints and rollerballs you have. Get a ziploc bag, maybe a large tupperware box, anything that can withstand nature. You will also need a shovel and a place to dig in soil. Put all of those ballpoints and rollerballs in the box, put said box into ziploc bags and/or other boxes. You see where I'm going with this. Go outside, dig a hole, put box into hole, fill up hole. Only when you truly desperately need the death sticks can you go dig it up. Since everyone is inherently lazy, you'll just "settle" for FPs. Whoever enters your life using death sticks must leave them at the door. YOu'll probably eventually unlearn BP writing. >8]

 

2. Exclusively use fountain pens for writing. If you can find it, get some brush tipped pens. You're going to learn to write without pressure. Do not press down on the pen. In fact, you may even throw out the tripod grip and use a tripod trench grip where you grip the pen like tripod but more to the side. Tripod generally puts the fingers 120° apart, so spread evenly. What I call trench tripod grip is you put thumb and index 180° apart and the pen rests on your midfinger first knuckle (depends on what your hand is shaped like). This means you can't really press the pen down any more, your index and thumb can merely make sideways strokes. Using a brush pen means you need to have very light pressure in order to write anything legible. You want no pressure whatsoever. Pressure adds to scratchiness.

 

3. Be conscious about your pen's writing dynamics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_dynamics_(fixed-wing_aircraft)

If you write like most people I see writing on school desks, they have their head close to the paper and they don't tend to move their hand much. Mostly finger writing. This means they will keep their wrist in place and the pen starts off at the right position, then as the sentence progresses, the pen experiences a change in yaw which isn't -that- bad but also a change in roll, which causes scratch as one tine is closer to the paper than the other. If the wrist is close to the line the sentence is being written on, your pen may experience a change in pitch, meaning the angle which the pen is held keeps getting bigger, up to 90°, which once again causes scratch.

 

Try this: put wrist on paper and make a line from left to right, you'll see the roll and yaw in action. It's also why you probably naturally lift your hand up when making a long line.

 

 

You can do one of two things to fix this: 3.1. Be conscious of this and move your wrist or learn to write with arm movement or 3.2. be like me and move wrist once in a while but use column writing.

 

3.1. Imagine writing in an A5 sized notebook. That's about 14 or more cm of page width, meaning you start writing but then you need to pick up your hand and move it to continue writing. If you don't, the pen gets that roll, pitch and yaw change. If you don't do full arm/shoulder writing, maybe at least keep the wrist up a bit.

 

3.2. Column writing involves splitting that A5 notebook in half. I tend to make a line around the middle of the page, top to bottom, in pencil, or I just wing it. Then I write in columns. It allows for many benefits like smaller writing, faster reading, better overview. Beware of lack of whitespace though, for when you want to add info later. Speedreaders swear by column reading. Research on it is largely inconclusive, have a quote:

 

 

 

To date, research investigating the optimal use of line length, multiple columns, and text justification is inconclusive. Longer line lengths typically result in faster reading times (Duchnicky and Kolers, 1983; Dyson and Kipping, 1997; Dyson and Kipping, 1998; Dyson and Haselgrove, 2001), but research suggests medium to short line lengths typically may result in higher comprehension (Tinker, 1963; de Brujin, de Mal, & van Oostendorp, 1992; Chaparro et al., 2004). In terms of columnar text, the research supports both long single columns of text (Dyson and Kipping, 1998), and multiple short columns (Lam et al., 2000) while preference seems to lie towards multiple short columns (Bouma, 1980; Dyson and Kipping, 1998; Andreyev & Martynov, 2000).

http://usabilitynews.org/is-multiple-column-online-text-better-it-depends/

 

Speedreaders favor speed and comprehension with speedreading competitions being graded heavily in terms of comprehension. Speedreaders will also mention image reading, like reading entire blocks of text at once, which is harder to do if the text is wide instead of long (column). I tend to read a large amount of academic texts and I greatly prefer the columnised ones.

 

I currently main a moleskine, A5-ish. They're more slim than A5. I still often split the page in half. Moleskine are notorious at being bad at any nib width larger than western extra fine.

 

 

 

TL;DR

Before getting more pens (actually, get more pens, you need more pens), check your writing grip, style, pitch, yaw, roll, wrist position, pressure etc. If this solves nothing, get more pens.

[mc021]

TL;DR (for now, I will read it when I get home from work)

 

I have a good grip and write with my forearm. I am using both tines and they are great if i barely apply pressure with my xxf nib, but I write slower when I do this. I don't remember having a scratchy problem with the F nib that came on the pen originally so I do believe it is just due to how fine the xxf nib is. I have carefully watched myself write before and I don't write with my wrist and I don't twist my pen (from turning my wrist) as I write. My entire hand and forearm moves along as I write.

 

I definitely thought it was my writing and read many threads and guides before. Turns out I do happen to grip the pen correctly and write with forearm (I was actually surprised by this because I definitely thought it was me.)

[redisburning]

OMAS' extra-fine is good.

 

just another alternative. I prefer theirs to Sailor or Pilot's F nibs, personally.

[mc021]

OMAS' extra-fine is good.

 

just another alternative. I prefer theirs to Sailor or Pilot's F nibs, personally.

 

I was both considering the OMAS and the Visconti Pd 23k. The Pd is supposedly a very wet writer which worries me on line size. OMAS is pricey and of course every model that I liked were LE and very pricey.

[StrawberryJam]

 

I was both considering the OMAS and the Visconti Pd 23k. The Pd is supposedly a very wet writer which worries me on line size. OMAS is pricey and of course every model that I liked were LE and very pricey.

 

If you are looking for a true XF, i would not recommend the Visconti 23k EFs...they are still kind of "fat". Unless you are willing to use a pretty dry ink like J. Herbin violette pensee.

[arcadeflow]

I had a black 78G that had a smooth fine nib after I adjusted it. My Prera has a good fine nib too. In some papers I feel less feedback than my Lamy XF nib, in others, it is the other way around. But usually, both of them feel better on office paper and regular cheaper paper than on my Oxford paper, which feels a lot better with wider and wetter nibs.

[j1020]

A Conway Stewart Coronet, if you can find one. The EF nib is delightfully smooth with a thin line and moderate wetness. The nib is 18k gold. They were made in 3 or 4 different resins with gold plated clip an bands on the cap. It is converter fill.

 

Mine in EF, is one of my very favorite writers.

[Buzz_130]

Remember that your nib floats on a cushion of ink as it writes. As the nib lays down the line, the lubrication comes from the ink. As a result, finer nibs will generally give you a scratchier feel or one with more feedback. As you point out, your stub lays down a very generous line, and the flow of ink is giving you a nice feel against the paper. In other words, you are going to have to make some compromises in your pen selection.

 

Modern Japanese pens run narrower than their Western counterparts with the same nib markings. You should start your search here for a nice Japanese fine. My wife loves her VP in F, and I have a Platinum in F. These are very narrow nibs, but I can feel both have a touch of feedback. Once I move up to the Japanese M in the Big 3 (Sailor, Pilot, Platinum), you have a good chance to find a very good nib with a fine line.

 

I can also recommend some vintage pens. Vintage pens tend to run narrow, and a good Parker or Sheaffer vintage F has a great feel and very narrow line. I have a Parker "51" with an XF nib, and it writes with some feedback. But the rest in the F to M category are true works of art, and the Sheaffer Balance, Snorkel, and even PFM have fantastic nibs with narrow lines.

 

Good luck!

 

Buzz

[georgeb]

I like my Platinum Balance with fine nib.

 

It writes like a western XF and is smooth on regular paper.

[Jeffrey Garrett]

A few people have mentioned the Sheaffer as a possible inclusion for consideration.

 

Throwing in my suggestions here. I have a couple of likely candidates that would fit your requirements. The first is the little Sheaffer Ringtop which has a Lifetime FF Nib - Very smooth and fine. For everyday use and to put up with the rigours of everyday use it may not be suitable to use 'on the hoof' so to speak. It is however quite a small pen and needs to be used posted, for me at least; a super little performer though.

 

The other being a Lamy Safari with EF nib. Bombproof and great capacity for use with the EF nib. The nibs do vary a little. I have three EF nibs in the Safari range and they are all slightly different. You could try before you buy perhaps? The Lamy Safari pens are not too expensive either so if you happen to lose it you won't break the bank... break your heart maybe! ... Better still get two!

 

Attached is a pic of the Ringtop and sample of writing.

 

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

The wider a nib the smoother it should write...having a wider foot, making a bigger puddle of ink to float on.

I prefer vintage western F to vintage Western EF....unless editing. That though is not 'lots' of writing, but short bits. (I do use a lot of M&B or even OBB nibs....but I have no problem writing large.)

 

Try the 'fore finger up' method of grasping a fountain pen. It is an automatic light grip....takes a whole three minutes to learn.

Then it's real easy to hold a fountain pen like a featherless baby bird.

And not make baby bird paste.

[mc021]

Hello and thank you everyone for your responses! So it looks like I was a little naive to think just getting a stiff nib would fix all of my problems. However, I have been thinking hard about this and think I would still enjoy a stiff nib more than what I have been using. I did very briefly own a Carene and I loved how smooth it was. I had to return it due to other issues but I was thinking maybe something along the lines of the Carene but with a piston filler now. Any suggestions for this criteria? Thanks again!