What Is A Fine Nib To You?

[Kuhataparunks]

I was going to post gushing about this Penmanship nib which I call my Grail Nib; because, it truly performs absolutely ideal for me. It's needle-fine, yet it's wet at the same time (for how thin it is), and the like.

 

It got me wondering, what do you consider a fine line?

It humors me to hear Professor brown classify something like a Pilot Medium as being "fine," when, to me, that is ever too broad for my liking.

So, what's it to 'ya?

Edited December 16, 2014 by Kuhataparunks

[discopig]

Japanese F is what I usually consider fine, Western nibs are much too wide for me, even their EF is larger than some Japanese F.

[graystranger]

The two finest lines my pens make come from my SEF nib Pilot Metal Falcon. My Pilot EF Vanishing Point nib is just about the same, not quite as wet as the SEF (which is wet so it will feed the spread nib when flexing), but the lines are the same. Noodler's Black Swan in Australian Roses is darker in the SEF than the VP EF nib on the same paper. I'll have to provide some photos of how they both write. Compare with the VP F and the Platinum Balance F. My Lamy EF is about equal to the Pilot M. Maybe later I can provide some photos.

 

I too used to think of the Pilot M as being a fine, back when I was using it alongside of a vintage Sheaffer F, Waterman Carene F, and Monteverde M, and Kaweco F&M nibs. Now I know better! The Japanese EF and F are wonderful when I want a fine line. I love all the nibs and use everything up to and including a 1.5 stub nib; choosing the nib for the writing I want to do. Look for photos of nib comparisons in the next few days.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Western F for me Japanese F=EF.

Japanese are miss-marked one size smaller, on the whole. One must realize a Sailor is a Fat Japanese nib, Pilot narrower.

Always wondered why Japanese nibs are marked in Western knowing they are thinner, instead of Japanese.

 

Knowledgeable posters have stated Japanese nibs are made for printing tiny Japanese script...so those who print instead of using Cursive can be happy with a printing nib.

 

A fine Japanese poster here says, western nibs are better for cursive. He knows more about that than I.

 

Sheaffer in the '50s was 'Japanese' thin, Aurora is the thinnest of the Euro nibs.

 

Actually most of my life -66, Japanese pens were unknown to me and the size of their nibs irrelevant.

But those who started with the very good nibbed cheap Japanese nibbed pens, have calibrated their eyes to that.

I who started with 'normal' Western F, have my eyes calibrated to that.....even though every company has it's own standards that overlap, not counting tolerance/slop.

 

I find Western EF too narrow for me, unless using very poor paper.

Having four (not counting superflex) western EF, from nail, true regular flex, semi-flex and 'flexi'/maxi-semi-flex. Have no need for more real skinny nibs. I seldom use them.

 

Shading inks don't do well with such skinny nibs....so keep a good supply of vivid supersaturated inks on hand.

 

I have no problem with western vintage B (= modern fat M) or even OBB. I do find modern western BB (Pelikan BB= BB1/2 or more) to be too fat. My modern MB B=BB.

[ac12]

Old US Parker Fine, as what is in my Classic, P51 and P45.

Current equivalent is a Lamy XF.

[Icywolfe]

The best F like F I've used is the Falcon which it seems to be the perfect narrow enough F but not too narrow that it's dry.

[dneal]

Japanese are miss-marked one size smaller, on the whole.

 

Strange that you say that, when the contradictory note in your sig-tag seems much more objective. There is no international standard for "fine" or "bold" that companies are deviating from.

 

A Kaweco Fine is not the same as a Pelikan Fine, which is not the same as a Lamy Fine. Two Fine nibs from Pelikan aren't even the same. With Montblanc, who knows what you'll end up with. For Japanese nibs, a Platinum fine is finer than a Pilot Fine. I will say about the Japanese though, they are much more consistent within a brand that "western" companies.

 

 

As your sig-tag notes:

 

 

Every company has it's very own standard + slop/tolerance. Developed from the users of it's pens only; not the users of other companies pens. The size you grind a nib to, is your standard only.

 

Edited December 16, 2014 by dneal

[inkstainedruth]

I went from starting with mostly M nibs towards more F ones (especially once I started getting vintage pens). But even then, there's a lot of leeway -- within brands, and even within the same model. For example, I have a bunch of Parker Vectors, and three of them are considered fines: but the blue one (my original "good" pen) writes wet -- as least as wide a line as the one that's an M, and wetter than the Parker Urban which *also* has a medium nib; the red one is probably closer to what I would consider a fine line; and the bright blue/turquoise one writes somewhere in between. Yet all of these have nibs marked as "F" (or, in one case, as "3").

And it's also really ink dependent. I have a Sheaffer Snorkel that has an EF nib and it works great with Skrip Purple (making the EF nib tolerable) -- but Waterman Mysterious Blue made me consider seeing if I could get the nib swapped out for something broader. Oh, and before you go and say "it's JUST the ink" -- I have WMB in another Snorkel, one with I think a medium nib and that pen writes great....

Kuhataparunks, you would get along with my husband (the "Philistine" who likes BIC fine point BPs). I borrowed a Sheaffer Touchdown from a friend to see if Steve liked the F nib in it. Nope: "too broad" was the response I got. I suppose I should see if the Snorkel with the EF nib meets with his exacting standards (although I'm not giving him that pen -- I like it too much, now that I have an ink that works well in it, plus I think that it might not be a big enough pen in girth for him to be comfortable). I've promised him a Easterbrook J with the nib swapped out for an EF nib (I'll probably try him a 2550, a 9550, and a 9450 and see which he likes best of the three). And at some point I need to sit him down with the 51 with an EF nib that I got from Pendleton Brown at the Ohio Pen Show last year and see how he likes it as well (it was a lovely pen to write with, IMO) and what ink(s) he likes (probably black, knowing him).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Bo Bo Olson]

Had the Japanese nibs had Japanese characters I'd not care, but by falsely marking an EF nib a Fine for marketing only...I find wrong.

 

Were Japanese pens ever marked just in Japanese since 1912 when the first Japanese pens were made?

Were they always marked in Roman?

[CraigR]

Very subjective subject, in my opinion. There are a number of charts available which offer nib size comparisons but there really isn't any across the board standard that I have found. Even with the charts, my results have varied depending on pressure, ink and paper. It makes it very hard to buy based on another's characterization of the nib. One person's fine is another's extra fine and another's medium.

[lmarine0510]

I define "fine" as a line that is thin as or thinner than a broad ballpoint line, probably old Sheaffer F and thinner.

[fc2462]

In my experience it varies greatly. For example, I have a MB 146 that was sold as "fine" and it literally lays down a hairline of ink. Very precise and very fine. Then I have a Pelikan M400 that is labeled fine but lays down a wider line than my Pelikan M800 with a medium nib. Both are German pens. I think it just depends on the maker and the time period they are made as well as the region. As a rule though the Asian pens are finer than the western ones - I agree with that. I've even wondered if the one Pelikan is just a mis-marked broad.

[Algester]

Had the Japanese nibs had Japanese characters I'd not care, but by falsely marking an EF nib a Fine for marketing only...I find wrong.

 

Were Japanese pens ever marked just in Japanese since 1912 when the first Japanese pens were made?

Were they always marked in Roman?

not all if there are pens that can be sent outside Japan then it will have the roman tip size but for example the Platinum Standard PTL- series have the tip sizes in kanji

[______Zaphod_Beeblebrox]

Fine is larger than Extra Fine but not as big as Meduim.

[MarkTrain]

Vintage Fine

Edited December 17, 2014 by MarkTrain

[B_Type13X2]

I consider the Sailor broad to be fine, mainly because it is finer then most western mediums and to tell the truth I dislike fine nibs so I find myself disliking my Sailor that I bought as a B hoping it would be at least a Western M.

[jar]

Anything under a Broad nib.

[KBeezie]

If I just say 'Fine' I'm talking bout western fine (But more in the sense of what you might find a Jowo #6 nib in), Or if the nib has it marked I'll mark the size in "" or <>, like saying my Pilot Murex is <F> but it writes more like a "Japanese Extra-Fine" closer to that of Platinum's EF on their sub-$100 pens.

 

I seem to like to use "~" a lot when describing unmarked nibs, like my Vacumatic I keep calling a EF~F as it's not quite a western EF but it's not quite a western F either.

[Kansas Pen]

I agree this is hard to quantify/ qualify without some way of measuring. That makes it hard. But I have made my own list of pens I have that are "Fine". I do so by comparison to my other Pens - mostly Western like Parker and Waterman.

 

They are:

Namiki Falcon Soft Fine - with nice semi-flex

Namiki Vanishing Point - wonderful writer in Fine

Sheaffer Vintage Snorkel - Admiral I think. Does not have "size" marking but writes like an Extra/Fine

 

But my best all around "Fine Pen" ? Believe it or not, a Cross Century 2000 with an X/F mark nib which writes extra fine.

It can write smaller that both the Namiki or VP if just a little bit.

But surprisingly, will become "Fine" with a little pressure. It has Flex! Very nice Gold plate steel nib.

I use this pen for a lot of different tasks. It is great to miniaturize notes for small notebooks, address books etc.

 

And I've read that Cross did not have anything but "Nails".

I don't think they offer these nibs anymore. I will NEVER sell it.

[KBeezie]

I don't think they offer these nibs anymore. I will NEVER sell it.

... Never say Never.