Iron Gall Inks -- Oxidation And Filling From The Bottle

[inkstainedruth]

It's probably no secret. I really like most IG inks, most recently some of the KWZI inks. But when I was filling a couple of pens yesterday to try the remaining bottles (from the most recent KWZI group buy) I had a thought. And since this will be my 5000th post, I thought I'd celebrate by posing this question, rather than just responding to someone else's post.

How concerned about oxidation should one be when filling a pen from a bottle or vial when using iron gall inks? Certainly the ink will oxidize on paper (often within seconds). But would filling be an issue and have the color be affected by oxidation? After all, there *is* oxygen in the air....

I guess I was thinking about it because I remembered getting a prototype pen a while back and the filling directions said to re-cap the bottle before wiping excess ink off the nib and section. At the time I had assumed that it had to do with either getting crud (like dust) in the ink or the risk of spills (as it happened, the first ink I had used in that prototype pen was also an IG ink). But as I filled the two pens with different IG inks yesterday the thought struck me -- just how much color change *would* there be? Or is the amount of time a bottle or vial be open while filling be so minimal as to not have much effect?

I'm not a chemist, but I know that there are people on FPN who are. And also people who have made their own inks, particularly IG inks. I remember a very long discussion that Pharmacist posted a few years ago about how iron gall inks were made, but I'll admit that I sort of skimmed over a lot of the thread, and I don't remember whether or not this was addressed. And I don't know if it's been addressed anywhere else or not. But if it hasn't, I thought I'd throw it out to this forum, in the hopes that more knowledgeable people will be able to weigh in. And if it has come up before, I'd be happy to see related threads (I don't always have the best results with the search function). Because I've gotten curious, now that I've thought of it.

Thanks in advance for any assistance from the experts, or pseudo-experts.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

[Sky Fountain Pens]

Here is a site just about the ink. Try finding your answer by clicking Iron Gall Ink, then on the side click IGI Chemistry. If you don't find it try the most obvious ones. http://irongallink.org/igi_index.html

Edited December 15, 2014 by Sky Fountain Pens

[amberleadavis]

Interesting!

 

This month, I inked up a sample of IG #81 (Cherry). It came in a pipette. I didn't get around to resealing the pipette for about more than a week. I did see some oxidation.

[inkstainedruth]

Here is a site just about the ink. Try finding your answer by clicking Iron Gall Ink, then on the side click IGI Chemistry. If you don't find it try the most obvious ones. http://irongallink.org/igi_index.html

Cool -- thanks for the link. Hopefully it will be written in laymen's terms (if I had known that someday I'd be interested in ink and ink composition I might have paid a bit more attention in my high school chemistry class -- I was only marginally interested in science-y things back then and spent free periods hanging out in the art department).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Oldane]

It's my experience that I-G inks oxidize in the bottle. They get darker and some set a sediment (which is oxidized I-G). It happened with my opened MB BB bottles the many years I used that ink. Sediment in Diamine Registrars is also common.

[MarkTrain]

IG ink will oxidize as the ink is used up in the bottle and replaced with air. I always found that by the time I used up about 50% of a bottle, the ink had noticeably faded. This oxidation can be reduced if one keeps the ink level topped up by adding small glass pebbles (I get these at Micheal's) to the bottle as one uses up the ink. When the bottle is full of pebbles it is time to get some more ink.

 

Mark

[JimCouch]

I opened my bottle of Diamine Registrars that I have not used in a couple of years. About 1/4 of the bottle left. It is in sad shape, 'grainy' and thick. Iron Gall inks should not be left unused for years!

[inkstainedruth]

IG ink will oxidize as the ink is used up in the bottle and replaced with air. I always found that by the time I used up about 50% of a bottle, the ink had noticeably faded. This oxidation can be reduced if one keeps the ink level topped up by adding small glass pebbles (I get these at Micheal's) to the bottle as one uses up the ink. When the bottle is full of pebbles it is time to get some more ink.

 

Mark

Wow. What a neat trick. Thanks. That probably also works to some extent when refilling any pen when the ink gets down too low in the bottle.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[SirVival]

Not a full blood chemist, but here are my two cents to clear up some confusion:

The term oxidization means that a chemical reagent changes its state of being. Imagine that you are juggeling 4 balls and badly so. Another juggler comes along with 3 balls and he is better at juggling and snatches one ball from you and you are too weak / bad to get the ball back from him. You lost something and got oxidized, while he got reduced (I know, the last part is countrrintuitive.)

The bad juggler is a component of the IG ink. Oxygen in the air is a better juggler and grab some balls, but slowly, as oxygen is not really that hot a juggler. In paper material, oxygen is present in another form together with hydrogen. And that is a mean juggling team, stealing balls (oxidizing) the poor IG in a much faster way.

 

I hope that made some sense as a try at laymen terms?

[Cyber6]

Not a full blood chemist, but here are my two cents to clear up some confusion:

The term oxidization means that a chemical reagent changes its state of being. Imagine that you are juggeling 4 balls and badly so. Another juggler comes along with 3 balls and he is better at juggling and snatches one ball from you and you are too weak / bad to get the ball back from him. You lost something and got oxidized, while he got reduced (I know, the last part is countrrintuitive.)

The bad juggler is a component of the IG ink. Oxygen in the air is a better juggler and grab some balls, but slowly, as oxygen is not really that hot a juggler. In paper material, oxygen is present in another form together with hydrogen. And that is a mean juggling team, stealing balls (oxidizing) the poor IG in a much faster way.

 

I hope that made some sense as a try at laymen terms?

 

 

Dude.. I swear.. your "laymen" got me so confused that I forgot what was the question... I keep thinking... Why jugglers want to steal my balls?...

 

 

Anyway... if that was your "Speak like we were 2 years old"... I will kindly ask .. if you can rephrase as if we were 12 years old?

 

 

 

C.

[amberleadavis]

I'm still giggling thinking of our uber feminine Cyber6 with balls that some character named Oxy the bad juggler is trying to swipe.

[SirVival]

Lol, that is what you get for oversimplification 😂

 

The unadorned version: IG contains reactive components. When they meet suitable reaction partners, they get oxidized. This may include forming a permanent bond with said reaction partner (like cellulose in paper). Some reactions are much easier and hence faster (cellulose) than others (oxygen in the air). But while the term oxidized is based on oxygen, any number of other elements / chemical compounds can cause oxidization of the IG formulation or parts thereof.

 

😴

[fwyun]

So, here's a question I've been thinking about . . . Can IG ink "go bad"?

 

That is to say, if it oxidizes in the bottle, will it still bond/stick to paper? Or has it lost that quality?

 

Francis

[Cyber6]

Lol, that is what you get for oversimplification

 

The unadorned version: IG contains reactive components. When they meet suitable reaction partners, they get oxidized. This may include forming a permanent bond with said reaction partner (like cellulose in paper). Some reactions are much easier and hence faster (cellulose) than others (oxygen in the air). But while the term oxidized is based on oxygen, any number of other elements / chemical compounds can cause oxidization of the IG formulation or parts thereof.

 

 

 

Gotcha!!.. now, that was much easier to comprehend...

 

 

C.