I Can't Seem To Identify This Pen...

[pfactorial]

Hey, I recently got a pen off of ebay. Nice, Triumph nib. But I can't seem to identify it.

 

Points of interest: Vac-Fill, White dot on blind cap, Two-tone cap with lines on it, Chrome clutch ring, visulated section, serial number on nib, and injection molded plastic. I think it's a Sheaffer Triumph from 1948 to 1950, but the lines on the cap and the chrome instead of gold clutch ring doesn't match online descriptions...Anybody know anything?

 

 

 

 

 

And it comes with a pencil, too -- no white dot on cap, lines on cap.

[Lazard 20]

This is a Sentinel cap. This injection molded plastic, developed with Celanese Plastic Co, was called "Forticel" (and "Radite II" too). Your color Burnt-Umber Brown was presented in the Annual Sales Convention of January 1948 and advertising campaign was planned for May so this ad should be one of the first.

 

In 1949 the system Touchdown was imposed. In 1950 this diameter of your fpen would be stylized with the Thin Models.

 

http://s2.postimg.org/x2mlfunqx/1948_05_23_THIS_WEEK.jpg

Edited October 25, 2014 by Lazard 20

[jar]

Looks like a a first year Sentinel Deluxe body (1947) IMHO.

 

The third from left with the brushed cap is the 1947 while the third from right with bright cap and the white dot on the cap is a 1948.

 

http://www.fototime.com/055AC6F3BB1039F/medium800.jpg

[pfactorial]

Oh, cool! Most pens that I saw, though, had the brushed cap without lines on it. Is it just a different model?

 

Edit: and usually, I see a gold trim clutch ring, too.

Edited October 25, 2014 by pfactorial

[Lazard 20]

Looks like a a first year Sentinel Deluxe body (1947) IMHO.

 

In our particular case the "polished chased stainless steel" cap without WD in cap is only compatible with Sentinel and not with Sentinel Deluxe (Deluxe can mount both cap, without chased and whith chased but, in this last case, with WD in cap).

 

 

Oh, cool! Most pens that I saw, though, had the brushed cap without lines on it. Is it just a different model?

 

In the coming days if you want we will talk about this Sentinel cap types (stainless steel cap vs polished chased stainless steel cap).

 

On the other hand, although the dates are not borders exacts, we could place your fpen in the first quarter of 1948 (inter presentation, January, and installation of WD in metal caps, March).

Edited October 25, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

A little more:

 

Sentinel is a model that already existed in 1945 with simple bicolor stainlees steel cap. In 1948 line they incorporated the bicolor high polished chased stainless steel cap.

Sentinel caps contain a certain "code" so, for example, in the ´40 Tuckaway, through the cap, we can distinguish the price even with cap on:

37WMX. Sentinel Tuckaway $12.50. Stainless steel.
37WMXC. Sentinel Tuckaway $15.00. High polished chased stainless steel.

 

... This could be a fun game among your friends. Would be something like this:

How many differences do you know between these Sheaffer´S fountain pens?

 

http://s14.postimg.org/nhi44lijl/Sheaffer_Sentinel_Tuckaway_caps_Lazard.jpg

Edited October 26, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

In our particular case the "polished chased stainless steel" cap without WD in cap is only compatible with Sentinel and not with Sentinel Deluxe (Deluxe can mount both cap, without chased and whith chased but, in this last case, with WD in cap).

 

I didn't quite understand this. Can you re-phrase it?

 

Thanks.

--Daniel

[Happy Harry]

Several key factors, the WD on the filler cap , a lined cap and a solid color. The WD placement indicates a '47 or earlier pen yet the cap ( to me a used bright rather than polished one) and color say no earlier than late '47. Perhaps this is as Jar suggests a '47 pen but a near end of model one so perhaps sneaking into early '48. I'm not well enough versed in this era to be definitive but suggest this is a bit out of the ordinary. Perhaps Kirchh can shed some informed light on this.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Happy Harry

[Lazard 20]

Jar, please, excuse my confusing commentary posted 25 Oct 20:44. My post has to be reformulated and is thus no allusions to yours. Thanks.

 

being only so;

 

Oh, cool! Most pens that I saw, though, had the brushed cap without lines on it. Is it just a different model?

 

In the coming days if you want we will talk about this Sentinel cap types (stainless steel cap vs polished chased stainless steel cap).

 

On the other hand, although the dates are not borders exacts, we could place your fpen in the first quarter of 1948 (inter presentation burnt-umber brown color, January, and installation of WD in metal caps, March), But the truth is that the advertising campaign was launched during second quarter, May, and since WD at metal cap. In the ad of This Week, May ´48, reproduced above we can read "Crest" with "Deluxe" but Sentinel burnt-umber brown as Sentinel without "Deluxe".

 

We should take a look at 1948 catalog and see if it Sentinel model appears with or without "Deluxe".

Edited October 27, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

In the ad of This Week, May ´48, reproduced above we can read "Crest" with "Deluxe" but Sentinel burnt-umber brown as Sentinel without "Deluxe".

 

Sure, but that's just the models that happened to be shown and described in that advertisement; it doesn't provide any information about the rest of the product line, such as the offering of a Crest (non-Deluxe) and Sentinel Deluxe, etc.

 

--Daniel

[H1N]

Just wondering, isn't possible that the cap has been changed with another model that has no white dot while the pen restoring process!? I say that because I've never seen two tone nib with non white dot cap Sheaffer model

Edited October 27, 2014 by H1N

[Lazard 20]

 

Sure, but that's just the models that happened to be shown and described in that advertisement; it doesn't provide any information about the rest of the product line, such as the offering of a Crest (non-Deluxe) and Sentinel Deluxe, etc.

 

--Daniel

 

Mmmmmm, if Sentinel was $15, presumably a Sentinel (more) "Deluxe" should be higher than $15 and we don´t know this case in the ´40.

 

The ´48 catalog would help a lot.

[kirchh]

 

Mmmmmm, if Sentinel was $15, presumably a Sentinel (more) "Deluxe" should be higher than $15 and we don´t know this case in the ´40.

 

It's not unprecedented for Sheaffer to price two similar pens of different sizes identically (for example, the Statesman and Premier Balances were both $10.00). And polished/chased-cap plunger-fill Sentinels are found in two distinct sizes, presumably corresponding to non-Deluxe and Deluxe models; the larger pens have a 1500 price code.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

 

It's not unprecedented for Sheaffer to price two similar pens of different sizes identically (for example, the Statesman and Premier Balances were both $10.00). And polished/chased-cap plunger-fill Sentinels are found in two distinct sizes, presumably corresponding to non-Deluxe and Deluxe models; the larger pens have a 1500 price code.

 

--Daniel

 

One possible explanation could be that during laminated era, having two sizes, as you say, two nibs, 79 and 92, and two prices, $12,50 and $15.0, would sense a separation between "Sentinel" and "Sentinel Deluxe", but in 1948 with Forticel being a single price $15 perhaps would unnecessary two names. And, in 1949, with Touchdown system the surname Deluxe was retake.

 

The ´48 catalog would help a lot.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

 

... in 1948 with Forticel being a single price $15 perhaps would unnecessary two names.

 

Well, if there were two sizes -- as we know there were -- it makes sense that Sheaffer continued to use two names.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

I also note that ads from '48 show the Sentinel Deluxe.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

 

And polished/chased-cap plunger-fill Sentinels are found in two distinct sizes, presumably corresponding to non-Deluxe and Deluxe models; the larger pens have a 1500 price code.

 

--Daniel

 

This presumption should not be accepted since there are, at least, two plunger-fill Sentinel DeLuxe; one with Polished cap and, other, with Chased cap, namely:

 

TRADE NAME SIMBOL PRICE CAP FILLER

SENTINEL DELUXE 39WX 15.00 STAINLESS STEEL PLUNGER

SENTINEL DELUXE 39WXC 15.00 POLISHED CHASED S. STEEL PLUNGER

Edited October 27, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

 

This presumption should not be accepted since there are, at least, two plunger-fill Sentinel DeLuxe; one with Polished cap and, other, with Chased cap, namely:

 

TRADE NAME SIMBOL PRICE CAP FILLER

SENTINEL DELUXE 39WX 15.00 STAINLESS STEEL PLUNGER

SENTINEL DELUXE 39WXC 15.00 POLISHED CHASED S. STEEL PLUNGER

 

You showed one pen with "polished chased" cap. Where's the other pen with a polished cap that is not chased (or a chased cap that is not polished)?

 

--Daniel

Edited October 27, 2014 by kirchh

[Lazard 20]

 

And polished/chased-cap plunger-fill Sentinels are found in two distinct sizes, presumably corresponding to non-Deluxe and Deluxe models; the larger pens have a 1500 price code.

 

--Daniel

 

If you try to say it: Chased-cap implies presumably "Deluxe", neither is acceptable because there are chased-cap Deluxe and Non Deluxe.

 

29W-XC Sentinel "Non Deluxe"

39W-XC Sentinel Deluxe

 

XC = High polished stainless steel chased cap.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

If you try to say it: Chased-cap implies presumably "Deluxe", neither is acceptable because there are chased-cap Deluxe and Non Deluxe.

 

29W-XC Sentinel "Non Deluxe"

39W-XC Sentinel Deluxe

 

XC = High polished stainless steel chased cap.

 

I'm not sure you are actually reading what I'm writing (or even what you are writing).

 

I never said that chased cap implies Deluxe. In fact, here's exactly what I wrote:

 

"And polished/chased-cap plunger-fill Sentinels are found in two distinct sizes, presumably corresponding to non-Deluxe and Deluxe models"

 

You'd previously said that there was no polished/chased cap Sentinel Deluxe without a White Dot in the cap:

 

"the 'polished chased stainless steel' cap without WD in cap is only compatible with Sentinel and not with Sentinel Deluxe"

 

You didn't offer any evidence for this claim, and you seem to have abandoned it (please explain if that is not the case).

 

You then said,

 

"there are, at least, two plunger-fill Sentinel DeLuxe; one with Polished cap and, other, with Chased cap"

 

But the portion of the table that you then posted shows no such thing; it shows one model with a polished and chased cap, and one model with neither:

TRADE NAME SIMBOL PRICE CAP FILLER

SENTINEL DELUXE 39WX 15.00 STAINLESS STEEL PLUNGER

SENTINEL DELUXE 39WXC 15.00 POLISHED CHASED S. STEEL PLUNGER

 

To summarize the facts:

 

Sheaffer offered two full-length plunger-filling Sentinel models with polished/chased caps: a smaller version at $15, and a larger version (found sometimes without a White Dot in the cap), also at $15.

 

I hope that simplifies and clarifies things.

 

--Daniel

Edited October 27, 2014 by kirchh